Moved Thread Dunstall vs Lockett vs Carey vs Ablett vs Lloyd vs Franklin vs J Brown - Who is the most Elite of them all?

[Jibroni]

Its a tough one but if I wanted a player to kick for my life I would want Lockett.

Ablett was the most enjoyable to watch.

 

[Coach_Required]

Impossible to compare

Franklins last 4 years devalued how good a player he was, but if you stick him in the late 80's when forwards didnt have to run as much he would have kicked far more goals back then than he did in the current era. However, Buddy wasnt a great mark over head so one on one with gorilla backs would have made it interesting.

If we are picking players for their era then you cant go past Tony Lockett

Tony Lockett

Age

60

Ht

191cm

Wt

108kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

10.2

3star

K

8.4

3star

HB

1.8

2star

M

6.3

5star

T

0.5

3star

G

4.8

5star

No current season stats available

D

8.2

2star

K

5.6

3star

HB

2.6

3star

M

4.0

4star

T

0.0

1star

G

1.4

5star

, but if we are comparing them to how footy is now, the way the game is defended and the need to run all day, I'd pick Buddy.

 

[cliffdrabble]

IMO, Lockett was the greatest player to play the game. Nobody but nobody could go with Lockett. As evidenced by his 14g 7b on the full back of last century in Silvagni. The others had players that could nullify them eg Jakovich on Carey.

If Lockett had of played for Hawthorn for most of his career he would have kicked over 2000 goals. He kicked most of his goals in very ordinary St Kilda teams. As Danny Frawley once said "he is the Bradman of our sport".

He could also play anywhere. In a state game v SA in Adelaide he was put into the ruck and swung the game Victoria's way.

 

[RUNVS]

Interesting chart. Source...?

Great to see Bernie Quinlan listed here. Started his career as more an on-baller before moving to FF where he kicked 100 goals multiple years. Very much in the style of Franklin, N Riewoldt, Ablett. Definitely a better kick than Franklin and Riewoldt.

Oh sorry. It is here

Buddy Franklin is a footy outlier and here's the data that proves it

An analysis of Lance Franklin's goal kicking reveals how he stacks up against the thousands of other players who have take the field in league football's history.

www.abc.net.au

 

[RUNVS]

Its a tough one but if I wanted a player to kick for my life I would want Lockett.

Ablett was the most enjoyable to watch.

Lockett was a bit before my time, I mean I remember him but not in great detail but I am guessing players like Lockett and Dunstall more often than not had goal shots directly in front because they did not need to go to the pockets like modern KPF's often do to mark the ball inside 50?

 

[The 747]

Lockett was a bit before my time, I mean I remember him but not in great detail but I am guessing players like Lockett and Dunstall more often than not had goal shots directly in front because they did not need to go to the pockets like modern KPF's often do to mark the ball inside 50?

In general yes, the space to lead up the middle is usually blocked by modern teams. I remember Hawkins debut against a very demoralised Carlton where he was able to lead from the goal square straight up the ground - basically never again was given that freedom by the opposition*

*unless in turnover situation where the defence gets disorganised.

Edit - team was Carlton not Richmond.

 

[RUNVS]

In general yes, the space to lead up the middle is usually blocked by modern teams. I remember Hawkins debut against a very demoralised Richmond where he was able to lead from the goal square straight up the ground - basically never again was given that freedom by the opposition*

*unless in turnover situation where the defence gets disorganised.

Yes, and for that reason, as well as the fact a modern KPF has to run a lot further than one in the 80's we have to take those things into consideration when comparing previous era players with modern players.

I think had they played in the 80's guys like Hawkins, Cloke, Brown and a few others would have kicked hundreds more goals than they have in their actual careers.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

Not really.

GAS - GPG: 4.16 SPG: 6.94 6+: 62 8+: 26 10+ 12
Lockett - GPG: 4.84 SPG: 6.96 6+: 102 8+: 47 10+: 21
Dunstall - GPG: 4.66 SPG: 7.05 6+: 90 8+: 42 10+: 16
Carey - GPG: 2.67 SPG: 4.35 6+: 20 8+: 5 10+: 2

Franklin - GPG: 3.01 SPG: 5.11 6+: 31 8+: 13 10+: 2

You could make a case he matches up alright to Carey, albeit Carey played CHF which no doubt impacted his goal tally and bag producing potential. He is a long way short of Lockett and Dunstall, and although he scored more goals than Ablett it was in more games, at a lower per game basis and with Ablett spending the first two thirds of his career either at HFF or on a wing.

So no. Buddy is not in the conversation for the top 4. Tenuously to Carey but the other 3 are comfortably better than Franklin.
TBF, conceding Carey is doing Duck's career a disservice too.

It is insane to think how many goals ablett would have kicked if he played his entire career at FF…. He would have cracked 1,500 imo.

 

[The 747]

Yes, and for that reason, as well as the fact a modern KPF has to run a lot further than one in the 80's we have to take those things into consideration when comparing previous era players with modern players.

I think had they played in the 80's guys like Hawkins, Cloke, Brown and a few others would have kicked hundreds more goals than they have in their actual careers.

It's very difficult to compare across eras. The things that made you a gun KPF in one era not so much in another era. The bigger full forwards would have had a much better time, the slighter full forwards of today would be smashed out of any contested marking situation, for example the Brisbane duo would really struggle unless they added extra weight. You can only compare how players went against the best defenders that era (including the rules they played under) had to offer.

Cloke couldn't kick though so not sure it would have mattered. Hawkins has been a surprise, he has been able to develop his game in an era that doesn't suit him. Josh Kennedy would have killed it in the 80s and 90s. Michael O'Loughlin would probably have a better time in today's game.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

In general yes, the space to lead up the middle is usually blocked by modern teams. I remember Hawkins debut against a very demoralised Richmond where he was able to lead from the goal square straight up the ground - basically never again was given that freedom by the opposition*

*unless in turnover situation where the defence gets disorganised.

Have to correct you out of nostalgic necessity, hawkins debuted against carlton at telstra dome and kicked 3 goals, then kicked 4 against melbourne the next week.

 

[The 747]

Have to correct you out of nostalgic necessity, hawkins debuted against carlton at telstra dome and kicked 3 goals, then kicked 4 against melbourne the next week.

Ah sorry Carlton with Pagan as coach, I'll edit the post.

 

[Wolfgang West]

Lockett and Dunstall were rarely one out. Lockett had opponent and then usually minimum one, often two players falling back on him. No coach would leave Lockett one on one with the 50 to himself. Would have kicked 2000.

Not to mention missing 90 odd games through injury and suspension. **** knows how many goals he would have kicked.
He is on his own. Roy Hobbs.

 

[Wolfgang West]

IMO, Lockett was the greatest player to play the game. Nobody but nobody could go with Lockett. As evidenced by his 14g 7b on the full back of last century in Silvagni. The others had players that could nullify them eg Jakovich on Carey.

If Lockett had of played for Hawthorn for most of his career he would have kicked over 2000 goals. He kicked most of his goals in very ordinary St Kilda teams. As Danny Frawley once said "he is the Bradman of our sport".

He could also play anywhere. In a state game v SA in Adelaide he was put into the ruck and swung the game Victoria's way.

All day long.

 

[Mr Meow]

It's very difficult to compare across eras. The things that made you a gun KPF in one era not so much in another era. The bigger full forwards would have had a much better time, the slighter full forwards of today would be smashed out of any contested marking situation, for example the Brisbane duo would really struggle unless they added extra weight. You can only compare how players went against the best defenders that era (including the rules they played under) had to offer.

Cloke couldn't kick though so not sure it would have mattered. Hawkins has been a surprise, he has been able to develop his game in an era that doesn't suit him. Josh Kennedy would have killed it in the 80s and 90s. Michael O'Loughlin would probably have a better time in today's game.

Late career Hawkins to me is good evidence that Dunstall and Lockett types with their incredible strength, nous and marking ability (along with their kicking) would still absolutely clean up in today's game.

Similarly I think GAS would dominate with his freakish ability. No doubt in the modern professional game he'd develop the tank to be a Martin style mid/forward or forward/mid taking down back flankers and third talls. Sure you could try an elite KPD with a big tank but would they have much success when he plays off a wing, if you had a team that already contained a Hawkins type player at full forward? He'd cause carnage.

Carey similar. Instant dominance in any era.

 

[RUNVS]

Late career Hawkins to me is good evidence that Dunstall and Lockett types with their incredible strength, nous and marking ability (along with their kicking) would still absolutely clean up in today's game.

Similarly I think GAS would dominate with his freakish ability. No doubt in the modern professional game he'd develop the tank to be a Martin style mid/forward or forward/mid taking down back flankers and third talls. Sure you could try an elite KPD with a big tank but would they have much success when he plays off a wing, if you had a team that already contained a Hawkins type player at full forward? He'd cause carnage.

Carey similar. Instant dominance in any era.

The problem with Lockett and especially Dunstall is they are both quite short to be a modern KPF. Lockett was around 191cm and I think Dunstall is 188cm, which is more of a Jack Darling size.

 

[Mr Meow]

The problem with Lockett and especially Dunstall is they are both quite short to be a modern KPF. Lockett was around 191cm and I think Dunstall is 188cm, which is more of a Jack Darling size.

So kind of close to Lloyd height but Hawkins build and freakish talents. I reckon sides would structure up in a way where they'd still do very well. Also generation to generation is getting taller but I find it an unfair and boring way to compare eras. Otherwise by default yes the temptation is to just say the taller players in a professional era would always do better.

 

[RUNVS]

So kind of close to Lloyd height but Hawkins build and freakish talents. I reckon sides would structure up in a way where they'd still do very well. Also generation to generation is getting taller but I find it an unfair and boring way to compare eras. Otherwise by default yes the temptation is to just say the taller players in a professional era would always do better.

It depends though, as while you can say "in the modern era Dunstall and Lockett would be taller" and you would likely be right, you would also have to say that with the extra height, and potentially extra weight they would also be less mobile, so while they are gaining in one area they would likely lose in another. Also both Dunstall and Lockett would need to lose weight in the modern era as their endurance would simply not be acceptable in this era, and with less weight they would not be able to stand up quite as well in a tough marking contest.

 

[AlwaysHawks15]

The problem with Lockett and especially Dunstall is they are both quite short to be a modern KPF. Lockett was around 191cm and I think Dunstall is 188cm, which is more of a Jack Darling size.

Your missing the part where both were 100kg plus of strength. Lockett in that era was basically Max Gawn in terms of sheer size and played that way.

 

[RUNVS]

Your missing the part where both were 100kg plus of strength. Lockett in that era was basically Max Gawn in terms of sheer size and played that way.

Yes, but in a modern game their lack of endurance would be a huge problem. They would need to lose weight, and that would affect that strength.

 

[AlwaysHawks15]

Not to mention missing 90 odd games through injury and suspension. **** knows how many goals he would have kicked.
He is on his own. Roy Hobbs.

So to did Dunstall.

 

[cliffdrabble]

Interesting chart. Source...?

Great to see Bernie Quinlan listed here. Started his career as more an on-baller before moving to FF where he kicked 100 goals multiple years. Very much in the style of Franklin, N Riewoldt, Ablett. Definitely a better kick than Franklin and Riewoldt.

Bernie Quinlan was an absolute superstar. He should have been CHF in the team of the Century, a much better player than Royce Hart in every facet of the game. Unfortunately played in too many ordinary teams, so does not get his due credit.

 

[Plugger35]

Some people seem to think that Lockett was just a big fat bloke that stayed in the goal square using his huge size and strength to kick goals.

At his peak he also had a good burst of speed on the lead and was also good at ground level for a guy his size, Tony was no one trick pony.

He may not have had the endurance to roam up the ground but I don't see old school full forwards like Hawkins or Tex doing that now either.

 

[Flandersss]

Not sure why Brown is in this thread

Pavlich/N.Riewoldt/Tredrea were better players IMHO

 

[Towmotar]

Has any player kicked more goals from outside 50 than Bud?
I'm aware that's not the question here but it got me thinking.....

 

[Ricmel]

Some people seem to think that Lockett was just a big fat bloke that stayed in the goal square using his huge size and strength to kick goals.

Ron Barassi rated Lockett the most skilled player ever to play the game. If you watched Lockett for any amount of time you notice he just never fumbled and rarely made the wrong decision. The only other player I think comes close in that regard was Diesel (and Carey was up there).

I agree with others that Lockett was rarely fit (partly due to asthma) and rarely in peak physical condition. It just makes his impact on the sport that much more amazing.

I was living in Sydney in 1995 when Lockett moved to Swans. In 1994 you could get free tickets to Swans games at any pub around the SCG just before the games and average SCG crowd was 9,000. By 1996 the average Swans SCG crowd was 26,000. In just two years Swans went from 15th most attended home ground to 7th most attended home ground. No other player has ever had that sort of impact on the game (Franklin for example moved the dial from average 29k at SCG to average 31k).