Autopsy Round 10 - West Coast v St Kilda

[Pakenhamsaint]

Saints supporters are used to losing, were not used to losing games that embarass us when were supposed to be improving.

Were uniquely resilient.

And I think that's part of the problem.

We accept loses and mediocrity far too easy. We should be setting fire to the joint instead.

 

[CaptainRisky]

That's not true. Pretty much every team around us needs to do the same thing.

Maybe i didn't word it correctly , i was more saying our selection criteria is as crooked as the fixture and as hard to understand

 

[CaptainRisky]

And I think that's part of the problem.

We accept loses and mediocrity far too easy. We should be setting fire to the joint instead.

Yep way too many on here will blame everything and everyone bar the club and players at times , Oh well at least we tried LOL

 

[bergholt]

Weve been 10 years in the wilderness, the promise was a little bottom out then back up to be competitive.

I don't remember that promise specifically but the promise is only made dependent on guesswork about where the list sits. As it becomes apparent that the list is worse than you expected/hoped, the promise has to change. There's no magic button you push there, it just is what it is.

 

[bergholt]

Yep way too many on here will blame everything and everyone bar the club and players at times , Oh well at least we tried LOL

I dunno, I reckon most people think the club has been incompetent for years and we just hope they aren't now!

 

[bergholt]

Review over - moved on!!

Out - Collard, Garcia, McLennan, O'Connell, Byrnes

In - Clark, Jones, Keeler (defence) Heath (Fwd), Boxshall

Sub - Travaglia


B Webster Caminiti Wilkie

HB NWM Keeler Sinclair

C Hill Macrae Wood

HF Higgins Sharman Hall

F Philipou Heath Owens

Fol Marshall Steele Clark

I/C Windhager, Jones Boxshall Wilson

Sub Travaglia

Yeah but swap Keeler and Heath. Keeler worth persisting with as a forward because he does pretty things occasionally and he's so strong in the contest, and if Heath is any good at all then he can quickly adjust to playing AFL-level key back even though he's never played back there ever before.

 

[phantom13]

I don't remember that promise specifically but the promise is only made dependent on guesswork about where the list sits. As it becomes apparent that the list is worse than you expected/hoped, the promise has to change. There's no magic button you push there, it just is what it is.

Sure, that doesnt make them immune to criticism.

Suggesting supporters pissed off about losing to the consensus bottom team this year is harsh and unhelpful IMO.

 

[Stan_Darsh72]

This team needs height.

 

[sauce_head]

Yeah but swap Keeler and Heath. Keeler worth persisting with as a forward because he does pretty things occasionally and he's so strong in the contest, and if Heath is any good at all then he can quickly adjust to playing AFL-level key back even though he's never played back there ever before.

Keeler is worth persevering with but I don’t recall him being strong at the contest in the games he played. Quite the opposite in fact. We have a list hole here, especially with King out (who isn’t the strongest at the contest yet either), that we can’t fix without more cattle. Perhaps the mid season draft? That’s probably too optimistic though.

 

[sauce_head]

This team needs height.

Exactly. Where do we get it and how quickly?

 

[Sully111]

And a fortnight ago we absolutely obliterated a team who's currently 9th (only missing the 8 on percentage).

It was one of the most dominant wins anyone has recorded against anyone this season.

Many statistical records were broken or challenged- contested possession dominance, clearance dominance, opposition inside 50 count, etc.

When you're fielding a young team with more kids than anyone else, guess what's gonna happen? You'll get inconsistent performance. That's a hallmark of youth and inexperience.

My point was- play the long game. Look at the big picture.

We're 4-6. Right on track for the 9 to 11 wins I expected.

And still ahead of most pundits who had us bottom 4....

Blaming kids doesn't cut it. Our senior players couldn't hit the side of a barn.

 

[Ads734]

Keeler is worth persevering with but I don’t recall him being strong at the contest in the games he played. Quite the opposite in fact. We have a list hole here, especially with King out (who isn’t the strongest at the contest yet either), that we can’t fix without more cattle. Perhaps the mid season draft? That’s probably too optimistic though.

Taru.

You can blame the AFL/VFL for that one. Has the physicality of stocker but the marking of Sharman.

 

[Atomboy]

Exactly. Where do we get it and how quickly?

Are there any tall free agents available ?!

 

[westernsainter]

I think Caminiti will make it as a defender and Loc did some good things-we have to remember their time in the system-remember Ross said Sicily got 2 games in his 4th year

Sicily played 22 games in his second year and has only missed games due to injury then on, 11 in 2020 was his lowest tally.

 

[PJays]

Blaming kids doesn't cut it. Our senior players couldn't hit the side of a barn.

All young teams have some older players.

And most young teams are more inconsistent than the average team.

This is not a coincidence.

It's just a reality. Make of it what you will.

 

[sauce_head]

Taru.

You can blame the AFL/VFL for that one. Has the physicality of stocker but the marking of Sharman.

Let’s hope so. And let’s hope he is much more of a one grab mark than Sharman.

 

[Silkie]

In terms of soul crushing losses post rebuild (2013) where does this rank?

v Port 2021
and
v Essendon 2017

probably the only two that stand out this much?
Going down to the dogs 100+ in 2021 got us an open letter but with four years of ****all between then and now I think this might top the lot.

Really hard to feel any hope at all whatsoever considering how many false dawns we've had 2016 onwards.

Essendon 2021 for me. I watched the game with family and I vividly remember driving home and just staring at the road, contemplating for the first time whether the emotional rollercoaster is genuinely worth it for something that ultimately doesn't matter and is supposed to just be a fun pasttime. Of course, here I still am four years later.

 

[Saintscomemarchingin]

Worst loss under RTB #2. It’s one thing to be outclassed by WB or Brisbane but WCE?

Sincs, Marshall & Higgo can hold their heads up and probably 1 or 2 others. The rest?

I’m really not sure where we go from here - we have lost 5 of the last 6. I really believe RTB is an excellent coach but I’m reluctantly coming to the conclusion that we have a list of C grade footballers. When the team brings 100% effort and manic pressure we are a decent team but when we drop off all our weaknesses are exposed.

My God how many tackles did we miss today? Just lacked aggression from the get go.

Our DNA was meant to be a hard running team that ground other teams into exhaustion- seemed to have completely lost that.

We just lack real game changers. Losing Howard completely destabilises our backline. No King means our forward line is pretty plain vanilla. I really hope some of these kids turn into A graders - we desperately need some class asap.

Very flat - if RTB can’t knock this team into some sort of shape and develop these kids after 5 years I honestly don’t know where the club goes from here.

And the thing is, Lyon has had better success with older, established players. He couldn't develop the young list at Freeo.
And Armitage & Steven as examples, didn't get a proper run until after he left.

 

[Sully111]

Virtually all young teams have some older players.

And most young teams are more inconsistent than the average team.

This is not a coincidence.

It's just a reality. Make of it what you will.

It's just excuses at this point imo. Our composure and skill level is atrocious more often than not, across the board. How long does a player need to be in the system before they're expected to him a 25m pass... or to have some game awareness? Sinclair with players wide open in the forward line kicks it straight to the oppo... or just bombs it out of defence straight to the opposition when players are open. Macrae's field kicking was poor. Steele's usually is. Hill has been a joke for 2 weeks running. We have very few players that have any composure at all. Wilkie, Higgins, Webster maybe....

We keep gifting the opposition the ball back and then run around like headless chooks... the fact we have some young players isn't the cause of that.

How can coaching not be partly responsible for the way the team plays? It's not just cattle.

Since we were a serious side hawks have won 3 flags, bottomed out and are now a good side again. Brisbane have gone from being shit to consistently contending. Other sides regularly make the 8. We've been a shambles for 14 years and it's always because we're victims or we've turned it around and are supposedly on the up.

This club needs to get it's shit together. The board, the coaches, the players, the conditioning staff... everyone.

Yesterday was just completely unacceptable.

 

[CursingFijian]

You’re all being very harsh.

We did club legend Andrew McQualter a solid here, I’m proud of the sentimentality.

#Putoutyour4points

 

[wolfpac13]

Took a day off work and went for a swim to forget about the footy and all the bad decisions we make and Jack Billing’s here to tell me there’s no escaping this misery lol

 

[westernsainter]

Interesting analysis regarding what happened to them.

As broad categories:

Good career with St Kilda, long-term players- Steele, Marshall, Sinclair, Membrey, Webster, Ross.

Left St Kilda mid-career- Battle, Long, Gresham, Bruce, Newnes, Billings, Acres

Fringe players, never consistently made the grade, some joined other clubs- Dunstan, Lonie

Career never got off the ground- Goddard, Phillips

Bad luck, injuries- McCartin, Longer, McKenzie.

The biggest category is those who left St Kilda mid career. That deserves further analysis. Acres I would place in a sub- category called "self-sabotage"- traded but shouldn't have been. Some decided to leave as free agents- Bruce, Battle, Gresham. Why did they leave?

Your broader point is best made with respect to Gresham and Billings. Both 1st rd picks, both had high finishes in the B&F early in their careers (both had multiple seasons in the 4-6 range). Neither's career turned out the way we'd like, following the promising starts.

My admittedly more pessimistic read:

All Australians: Steele, Sinclair

Probably should be AA but Max Gawn exists: Marshall

Solid contributors on their day: Membrey, Ross, Acres, Battle (three of these now on other lists)

Serviceable players that oppo fans do/did not think about at all: Webster, Long, Gresham, Bruce (two on other lists)

Guys who never made it at AFL level: Newnes, Dunstan, Lonie, Goddard, Phillips, McCartin, Longer, McKenzie

I really hope I'm wrong but I can't help but think we've got a few blokes under 24 who are headed for the latter couple groups on current trajectory. Until they actually earn respect from our opposition I find it hard to take them seriously.

 

[70s sainter]

I’d bring in heath for height in the forward line . Clark and Bo hall as they’re both natural mids . Jones as sub . Give Garcia and collard a rest . Mclelland out. Maybe one of the runners in Wilson or Byrnes .
We need to blood the young players slowly into a winning culture and standards not getting smashed week in week out . Get some structure back in the side so players know their proper role

 

[borderbarry]

Can anyone remember a captain losing that position mid season?

 

[Verdun66]

Is it safe to come in here yet? I only read the first post. Which I agree with and thought the same. Had a bad feeling going into this game. Sadly that feeling came true.