Mega Thread Nick Daicos - Can he be the GTWEB? Part 2

[Fadge]

You said in regard to the WB you’d expect those higher numbers due to game style.
Seems your picking and choosing what you’ll use as a measure.

Again..... it is a simple explanation as to why PLaYeR RaTiNGZ is overstated for some players, because the algorithm is heavily weighted towards offensive statistics.

If Bontempelli and Richards were in fact the two best players in the competition in 2025, how could they possibly miss the finals, particularly given the rest of their superstar midfield comprising Libba, Kennedy, Treloar, SANDERS and Freijah?

 

[doppleganger]

So game style

The Dogs were the highest scoring team in 2025, but they missed the finals. The Dogs scored 4-500 more points in H&A compared to Lions, Pies, Hawks and Dockers.

It is no surprise that if you just use raw score involvements that the Dogs (the outlier team in terms of scoring) had 8 of the top 40 players for score involvements.

Age of list

Sure, young teams are usually bad.
Normally players hit their prime say from 22 or so after 3-4 seasons, once they are getting above 50 games.

It is really rare that you have a player like Nic Daicos come along who in his second season jumped up and was voted runner up to Bont in players MVP, and 3rd in the AFL coaches award and Brownlow.

Players, coaches and umpires acknowledged a second year player as top 3 performer....almost unheard of in the modern era.

List demographic

What do you mean?

Injuries

No shit, injured players miss games and can't perform. Easy to adjust to a per game approach instead of totals to account for missed games.

An example for you - in 2023 Daicos was clear leader in coaches award and Brownlow at rd 20.

He hurt his knee early in Rd21 game, so final 4 games were injured games where he received 0 votes due to not being on the field. Whilst he wasn't playing Bont, Neale and Butterz had good last months to overtake him.

They won the overall awards, because they were all fit for ALL 23 games. Daicos had the best votes per game average for 2023....as a 2nd year player!!

You can’t just say you’d expect that and weight it accordingly but not take in all consideration.

Yeah, much better to just use meters gained....

 

[doppleganger]

You said in regard to the WB you’d expect those higher numbers due to game style.
Seems your picking and choosing what you’ll use as a measure.

It was in reference to a score involvements you goose.

The Dogs played the fast free flowing game style - where they beat up on avg teams. It should be obvious that the highest scoring team will dominate the raw score involvement stats.

So if you want to compare with others players you can use a metric that talks to individual players % of team scores.

Bont is still a top 5 player for score involvements, but blokes like Frejiah drop out of the top100 instead of being a top 40 rated player.

 

[Do the Dew]

Again..... it is a simple explanation as to why PLaYeR RaTiNGZ is overstated for some players, because the algorithm is heavily weighted towards offensive statistics.

If Bontempelli and Richards were in fact the two best players in the competition in 2025, how could they possibly miss the finals, particularly given the rest of their superstar midfield comprising Libba, Kennedy, Treloar, SANDERS and Freijah?

It's a hell of a lot more objective than brownlow votes, all australian jackets etc. which when it suits, you spruik like no other.

 

[doppleganger]

Again..... it is a simple explanation as to why PLaYeR RaTiNGZ is overstated for some players, because the algorithm is heavily weighted towards offensive statistics.

If Bontempelli and Richards were in fact the two best players in the competition in 2025, how could they possibly miss the finals, particularly given the rest of their superstar midfield comprising Libba, Kennedy, Treloar, SANDERS and Freijah?

Not just those two.

Dogs had 5 of the top 30 individual players according to PlaYA RaTings. Again no surprise when the Dogs team rating was 230 and Brisbane just 210.

The only real surprise being the Dogs didn't walk away with the Premiership, they were the dominant team with 5 of the best 30 players of the year according to ratings.

Daicos played for a dour, low scoring, low disposal but successful team.

 

[ferball]

Oh, just when I thought I sort've understood the need to denigrate one of our fantastic young AFL players....

Well if its not tall poppy?, why is it that its constantly directed at just the young Collingwood bloke? Seems to me there's a whole heap of talented youngsters playing the game, yet most threads just seem to concentrate on one young Magpie?

I don't think anyone is denigrating Daicos. He's a great young player with the potential to be one of the best of his generation.

Don't you agree?

 

[Fadge]

It's a hell of a lot more objective than brownlow votes, all australian jackets etc. which when it suits, you spruik like no other.

Thanks for reminding me.

It is quite amazing that Daicos has been able to poll as many Brownlow votes as he has, despite not having the same hard contested ball game as the Cripps, Rowell, Fyfe, Neale type players that historically attract all the votes.

 

[Fadge]

I don't think anyone is denigrating Daicos. He's a great young player with the potential to be one of the best of his generation.

Don't you agree?

He already is one of the best of his generation, supported by the fact he is only the second player this century to have multiple podium finishes in the 3 major individual awards in three consecutive seasons.

Hence the more than reasonable thread question.

 

[ferball]

You've really got to understand this is a public forum and that anyone is welcome to respond to the uninformed questions you pose.

You get precious when I respond to a question that wasn't specifically directed at me, then get precious when another poster answers a question that was directed at me.

Yeah ... its annoying having to talk to someone else instead of laughing at everyone crapping on about whether or not Nick Daicos is the first coming of Nick Daicos.

So first you refer to the thread title, in which case you are wrong, then you double down by indicating you're a mind reader, and that I've been 'hinting at' Daicos already being the GOAT or GTWEB...

Oh boy...

Yeah, because that's highly likely.

Maybe you should start your own thread if that's what will tickle your fancy?

Every time someone says "Well he's not the greatest yet, he's only played three or four seasons" you start crapping on about his performance in sketchy awards like that means something.

You clearly think he is and simply don't have the balls to bang a stake into that ground and tie yourself to it.

(Which is something else I'd like to be able to laugh about without having to talk to you about it.)

Have some self respect. You clearly want to commit to that position so just do it.

 

[doppleganger]

It's a hell of a lot more objective than brownlow votes, all australian jackets etc. which when it suits, you spruik like no other.

Brownlow votes, AA awards, disposal numbers are all objective measures, none are influenced by personal feelings or opinions

Daicos has gone 3 for 3 in AA awards in 23, 24 and 25 (only two others have done that Serong and Bont).

Daicos despite playing for a dour low disposal, low rating team also Pies dominant player in PlaYA RatIngs anyway. Best performance for the year, and Pies best in finals in 2025.

Whatever objective measure you use, it is clear that since Daicos second season when he elevated his game he has been top few in terms of performance as a 20, 21 and 22 year old...he ain't even meant to hit is peak yet!!

 

[ferball]

We do, do we?

So a mind reader and a retrospective crystal baller.

You really are quite amazing.

Well I am generally but my point is obvious to anyone with a footy brain:

Bont plays in r2 and the Dogs win.

You won by less than the average score he made last season and he always seems to play above his average performance against the Pies so we can safely assume he'd have been worth more to the Dogs than Collingwood's winning margin.

You said upthread that anyone can respond to any comment blah blah blah but you are missing the context that my comment was in response to old mate crapping on about how Bont's higher score involvements only happened because of Collingwood's game style vs Dog's game style and their respective positions on the ladder. Something that would have been reversed if he had been available against Collingwood. (Ie Dog's would finish above Collingwood if he had played in r2.)

Literally Bontempelli playing or not was the difference between two of the sides vying to make up the numbers in the eight last season.

And now I have to explain all that to you cos you're unable to follow it yourself when I could be enjoying my lunch.

Thanks.

 

[Fadge]

Well I am generally but my point is obvious to anyone with a footy brain:

Bont plays in r2 and the Dogs win.

You won by less than the average score he made last season and he always seems to play above his average performance against the Pies so we can safely assume he'd have been worth more to the Dogs than Collingwood's winning margin.

You said upthread that anyone can respond to any comment blah blah blah but you are missing the context that my comment was in response to old mate crapping on about how Bont's higher score involvements only happened because of Collingwood's game style vs Dog's game style and their respective positions on the ladder. Something that would have been reversed if he had been available against Collingwood. (Ie Dog's would finish above Collingwood if he had played in r2.)

Literally Bontempelli playing or not was the difference between two of the sides vying to make up the numbers in the eight last season.

And now I have to explain all that to you cos you're unable to follow it yourself when I could be enjoying my lunch.

Thanks.

That's nice. If the Bont comes in for the Bulldogs, do the Pies get Mihocek to come in for them? And for Reef to not do his knee early in the first quarter?

I just want to understand how this alternative universe of yours works?

 

[ferball]

The Dogs could only beat 1 decent side all year (GWS) with the Bont.

Dogs had 9 games where they scored 125+ in thumping wins against majority of dud teams (only decent opposition was GWS).

Collingwood, Brisbane, Geelong and Hawthorn (the four PF teams) COMBINED for just 7 games where they scored 125+.

So IMHO much better to use scores as a proportion of team score to identify the actual standout players, not just see which players played for the Dogs (the attacking team who racked up big numbers against poor teams).

And is anyone really surprised that Daicos is at the head of the list?

LOL. You're just crapping on to avoid facing the fact that if you'd played them with him in the side you'd have lost and both sides would have finished on 60 points. They'd have been above you on the ladder tho because their flawed attacking style of footy would have given them a higher percentage for the season.

 

[ferball]

That's nice. If the Bont comes in for the Bulldogs, do the Pies get Mihocek to come in for them? And for Reef to not do his knee early in the first quarter?

I just want to understand how this alternative universe of yours works?

So now you're claiming those players have as much influence on a game as Bontempelli?

LOL.

You're a certified genus.

 

[Fadge]

Yeah ... its annoying having to talk to someone else instead of laughing at everyone crapping on about whether or not Nick Daicos is the first coming of Nick Daicos.



Every time someone says "Well he's not the greatest yet, he's only played three or four seasons" you start crapping on about his performance in sketchy awards like that means something.

You clearly think he is and simply don't have the balls to bang a stake into that ground and tie yourself to it.

(Which is something else I'd like to be able to laugh about without having to talk to you about it.)

Have some self respect. You clearly want to commit to that position so just do it.

I think you'll find in the Opening Post of this thread I have ranked my top 50 players in the history of the game, and promised to update that list with Daicos when he enters that list.

He is not yet in that company.

But believe me, if I thought he was indeed the greatest ever, I wouldn't be afraid to announce it on BigFooty....

 

[Fadge]

So now you're claiming those players have as much influence on a game as Bontempelli?

LOL.

You're a certified genus.

Not sure if you've played much footy, but its not quite as simple as what you are saying.

Libba, Richards and Freijah all had rippers that night- if Bont plays, do they all still have the same influence? Does Richards or Freijah miss out on their midfield spot?

Do Collingwood still kick as inaccurately as they did?

 

[doppleganger]

LOL. You're just crapping on to avoid facing the fact that if you'd played them with him in the side you'd have lost and both sides would have finished on 60 points.

No shit.

If the Dogs didn't go 2-9 against the top 8 teams they would have played finals...but they could only beat GWS.

They'd have been above you on the ladder tho because their flawed attacking style of footy would have given them a higher percentage for the season.

If the Dogs could have beat the Lions at the GABBA like we did, they would have made finals.

If the Dogs could have beat the a travelling Adelaide in Melbourne like we did, they would have made finals.

If the Dogs could have beat the Freo at the Optus like we did, or even at Marvel hey would have made finals.

Fact is the Dogs couldn't get the job done against good teams in 2025.

They did end the year with best team ranking and 5 of the best 30 players of the season though, so agree with you that it is very surprising that they weren't premiers based on that.

 

[ferball]

He already is one of the best of his generation, supported by the fact he is only the second player this century to have multiple podium finishes in the 3 major individual awards in three consecutive seasons.

Hence the more than reasonable thread question.

What if he suffers a career changing injury like his old man, gets wiped out in a few bad contests and retires because of concussion? Or gets hit by a drunk driver or something?

You can't judge which players are the best of their generation until that generation of players is done, or nearly done.

If you could campaigners would be raving about Winston Abraham in that thread about the greatest small forwards of all time.

And you can't make those judgements on the basis of stupid hype awards like the Brownlow or AA. We've all seen the way Brownlow votes don't match reality over the last few seasons. We all know who picks the AA side and why they do it (ie for engagement reasons not pure footy ones.)

That leaves the coaches award, which has some credibility obviously but still raises questions. For example a podium finish in the AFLCA award three years in a row is good but - why did he only win one B&F in that time? - given that's decided by a panel of his club's own coaches?

If this is what you're resorting to to enable asking the question of whether he could be all time GOAT then you're kind of wasting everyone's time.

 

[ferball]

Not sure if you've played much footy, but its not quite as simple as what you are saying.

Libba, Richards and Freijah all had rippers that night- if Bont plays, do they all still have the same influence? Does Richards or Freijah miss out on their midfield spot?

Do Collingwood still kick as inaccurately as they did?

Not sure if you've done much thinking but obviously the answer to all those questions is yes, no and it doesn't matter.

 

[ferball]

No shit.

If the Dogs didn't go 2-9 against the top 8 teams they would have played finals...but they could only beat GWS.

And they would have beaten you lot if Bontempelli had played.

If the Dogs could have beat the Lions at the GABBA like we did, they would have made finals.

If the Dogs could have beat the a travelling Adelaide in Melbourne like we did, they would have made finals.

If the Dogs could have beat the Freo at the Optus like we did, or even at Marvel hey would have made finals.

Fact is the Dogs couldn't get the job done against good teams in 2025.

They did end the year with best team ranking and 5 of the best 30 players of the season though, so agree with you that it is very surprising that they weren't premiers based on that.

None of that matters cos the question at issue is the difference he would have made when they played you in r2.

 

[Mynamesinuse]

And they would have beaten you lot if Bontempelli had played.



None of that matters cos the question at issue is the difference he would have made when they played you in r2.

I remember the 33-14 free kick count had the biggest influence

 

[doppleganger]

And you can't make those judgements on the basis of stupid hype awards like the Brownlow or AA. We've all seen the way Brownlow votes don't match reality over the last few seasons. We all know who picks the AA side and why they do it (ie for engagement reasons not pure footy ones.)

Brownlow top10 of 2025

Rowell, Daicos, B.Smith, Dawson, A.Brayshaw, Bont, Serong, Anderson, Gawn, NWM

Brownlow top10 of 2024

Cripps, Daicos, Serong, Heeney, Butters, T.Green, Rowell, Treloar, Gulden, Newcombe

Brownlow top10 of 2023

Neale, Bont, Daicos, Butters, Gulden, Petracca, J
viney, Gulden, Cripps, Anderson

Pretty solid list really Daicos and Serong only two to be top10 in all 3 seasons, and both have 3 AA jumpers.

That leaves the coaches award, which has some credibility obviously but still raises questions.

Brownlow top10 of 2025

Rowell, Daicos, B.Smith, Dawson, A.Brayshaw, Bont, Serong, Anderson, Gawn,
NWM

Coaches award top10 of 2025

Rowell, Daicos, B.Smith, Dawson, A.Brayshaw, Bont, E.Richards, Anderson, Gawn, NWM

Serong for E.Richards is the only difference.

For example a podium finish in the AFLCA award three years in a row is good but - why did he only win one B&F in that time? - given that's decided by a panel of his club's own coaches?

Copeland trophy has strange voting system. It isn't simply who was best on ground.

Each coach is asked to award votes to every player in the game’s 23-player team. Each player will receive a vote 0 – 4 on the following four categories; 1. Pressure, 2. Fight, 3. Territory, 4. Role / Impact.

Copeland trophy 2023 he came 2nd to Josh, and Josh had 5 extra games to get votes.

2025, he came 2nd to Cameron.

Cameron back up his second in the 2024 Copeland with a first, the coaches clearly rate his importance to the system especially territory piece with his behind the ball marking.

If this is what you're resorting to to enable asking the question of whether he could be all time GOAT then you're kind of wasting everyone's time.

Can he be...

You playing your imaginary what if the Dogs beat a team they lost to is quality stuff though.

 

[doppleganger]

I remember the 33-14 free kick count had the biggest influence

Yeah I am sure you remembered the free kick count from a game not involving Essendon (or StK)

 

[ferball]

I think you'll find in the Opening Post of this thread I have ranked my top 50 players in the history of the game, and promised to update that list with Daicos when he enters that list.

He is not yet in that company.

But believe me, if I thought he was indeed the greatest ever, I wouldn't be afraid to announce it on BigFooty....

We've seen your list. Its ludicrous. (Especially the bit about ticking players off as he passes them.) Keith Greig isn't even on it and he had two Brownlows by the time he was Nick's age. (And that was back when the award had some credibility.) He'll never beat that.

Is he better than Dangerfield yet?

What about Cousins?

What did you glean from watching Jack Dyer that you'll be able to compare to young Nick as his career progresses.

What does he have to do to be considered a better player than your top five?

 

[Mynamesinuse]

Yeah I am sure you remembered the free kick count from a game not involving Essendon (or StK)

Was talked about at length during the week following.