Mega Thread Nick Daicos - Can he be the GTWEB? Part 2

[Fadge]

Some think he doesn't biff and bash enough, and thus he will never be the best... regardless of whether he wins 5 AFLCA awards, 6 MVP etc.

If he was tracking to be the GOAT, he should already have 5 AFLCA, 6 AFLPA and 7 Brownlows in his 4 year career to date.

 

[HeathySure]

You sound scared to truly gauge bigfooty public opinion. That's ok, stay in your little safe space with your collingwood mates and keep circle-jerking about nicky.

please
I have a degree majoring in statistics. A poll in this forum is fun but hardly any adjudication on how good he is. I know what i see and thats the best Collingwood player i have ever seen. Not sure you can argue with my opinion though because i am comparing all my love childs

 

[Mr Meow]

Using "all of them" you mean like how you exclude coaches votes, Brownlow votes and media experts voting?

The cherry picker has made it a bit obvious hasn't he.

And you appear to be adopting his preferred approach to "analysis".

Not the good old cherry picker.

As guess what, he pivots from his precious player ratings to coaches votes for finals.

Not really, podium is top 3

According to coaches votes, Daicos again has multiple podium finishes in his finals to date.

A consistent theme whether in H&A or finals, coaches have Daicos in the best more than any other player across 2023-25.

Accepting both sides of an argument is the preferred analytical method? What are you blabbering about?


It is a simple identifier - grouping people who provide poor analysis, predominantly because they cherry pick their data - just tend to be Tiger supporters (perhaps the one poster with multiple accounts?).

I look at and acknowledge everything, including highlighting where various metrics differ/disagree or how context/variables may influence them. There is no perfect system, and it becomes even less clear when you compare players of different positions. It's a bit different if Daicos (among midfielders) was dominating all relevant accolades, statistics and ranking points. Or at least the majority of them.

Daicos is doing very well across a number of categories and putting together elite seasons. Just not undisputed best ones, which was the erroneous claim. The praise is already significant, but for some reason it isn't palatable unless it is made more outlandish than is commensurate with the facts.

That it always descends into "only nuffies think this", "oh they sound like a Richmond supporter", "Daicos derangement syndrome!", "You mad, bro?" - only reinforces that the arguments themselves aren't strong. Thankfully the deflective adhom and personal nonsense is ending up deleted lately. It makes sense to do that because these are merely attempts to exchange debate for childish tit for tat that has nothing to do with football.

 

[doppleganger]

I look at and acknowledge everything, including highlighting where various metrics differ/disagree or how context/variables may influence them. There is no perfect system, and it becomes even less clear when you compare players of different positions. It's a bit different if Daicos (among midfielders) was dominating all relevant accolades,
statistics and ranking points. Or at least the majority of them.

He is dominant in the accolades.

And who cares if he is 7th, 12th or 4th in Supercoach or Player Ratings.

They are just made up algorithms.

Just not undisputed best ones, which was the erroneous claim.

Who claimed he was the undisputed best player in which individual season?

Thankfully the deflective adhom and personal nonsense is ending up deleted lately. It makes sense to do that because these are merely attempts to exchange debate for childish tit for tat that has nothing to do with football.

Agree, that isn't part of the analytical method.

 

[Mr Meow]

He is dominant in the accolades.

And who cares if he is 7th, 12th or 4th in Supercoach or Player Ratings.

They are just made up algorithms.

Who claimed he was the undisputed best player in which individual season?

Agree, that isn't part of the analytical method.

2023-2025 Daicos has a single BnF (non-finals season), League MVP and Coaches Association award to go with the 3 AAs and no finals awards. It's a strong run but it's not accolade dominance. It has ran alongside an average Player Ratings finishing place of 10th among midfielders.

This year he has a chance to defend his League MVP title and dominate some finals, maybe winning a BnF in a strong team while he's at it. I reckon it's the year his scoring metrics (goals, goal assists and score involvements) take that next step too. With all that I'm sure he'll climb into the top 5 ranked midfielders for Player Ratings as well.

 

[doppleganger]

2023-2025 Daicos has a single BnF (non-finals season), League MVP and Coaches Association award to go with the 3 AAs and no finals awards.

Across 2023-25

In the Brownlow, AFLCA, AFL MVP and Club BnF, his "poorest" finish is a 4th.

1st - 3 times
2nd - 5 times
3rd - 2 times
4th - 2 times

Has anyone else been top 4 in all main awards in each season and received AA guernsey in each season?

I know you struggle to answer straight forward questions, so will help you out...and confirm that no other player has been top 5, let alone top 4, in all awards plus won AA.

Daicos is the player dominant in the awards, because he has played the most brilliant games.

It's a strong run but it's not accolade dominance. It has ran alongside an average Player Ratings finishing place of 10th among midfielders.

Yeah, ignore all awards and instead run with an algorithm that even it's biggest fan ( picker) claims you can't use to evaluate single games

This year he has a chance to defend his League MVP title and dominate some finals, maybe winning a BnF in a strong team while he's at it.

Agree, back2back MVPs will be his if he keeps up his SOO game level.

I reckon it's the year his scoring metrics (goals, goal assists and score involvements) take that next step too.

He was already the #2 player for team score involvements %, but again agree that he should step up from #2 and be the clear #1.

But hey, he isn't 190cm and doesn't take big pack marks.

 

[Mr Meow]

Across 2023-25

In the Brownlow, AFLCA, AFL MVP and Club BnF, his "poorest" finish is a 4th.

1st - 3 times
2nd - 5 times
3rd - 2 times
4th - 2 times

Has anyone else been top 4 in all main awards in each season and received AA guernsey in each season?

I know you struggle to answer straight forward questions, so will help you out...and confirm that no other player has been top 5, let alone top 4, in all awards plus won AA.

Daicos is the player dominant in the awards, because he has played the most brilliant games.

Yeah, ignore all awards and instead run with an algorithm that even it's biggest fan ( picker) claims you can't use to evaluate single games

Agree, back2back MVPs will be his if he keeps up his SOO game level.

He was already the #2 player for team score involvements %, but again agree that he should step up from #2 and be the clear #1.

But hey, he isn't 190cm and doesn't take big pack marks.

I've noticed you resort to emojis and a variation of label or name calling (Dog, Tigers supporter, cherry picking, Disingenuous One...there have been at least half a dozen others) when your actual arguments lack strength. You mix this in with a highly sarcastic, condescending, mocking style as you shift the goalposts or throw in Strawman arguments. Usually stating I claimed something that I didn't, or ignored something that I didn't.

None of the above build your case or defend your points.

Again, I have never denied Daicos accumulating podium finishes. That simply isn't accolade or award dominance. Nor are his accumulated statistics or Player Ratings ranking from a numbers point of view.

Finishing 3rd rather than 8th often means 10 to 15 coaches votes difference - not a big deal when so many factors can shift voting dynamics and shuffle these places. A podium finish isn't an award and it doesn't reflect dominance reflective of a GOAT run. Nobody would expect it at his age so maybe now it will start.

I'm not sure why any of this is causes so much offence and acts as a magnet for the adhom, mocking, backslapping routine along with tiresome labels and emoji-fests.

 

[Dtennent94]

What, if anything, does the SOO game do for Nick’s legacy?

Is it impressive that he stood out amongst the league’s best or does it not matter for anything because we can write it off and say Nick was the only one trying?

 

[Dtennent94]

I've noticed you resort to emojis and a variation of label or name calling (Dog, Tigers supporter, cherry picking, Disingenuous One...there have been at least half a dozen others) when your actual arguments lack strength. You mix this in with a highly sarcastic, condescending, mocking style as you shift the goalposts or throw in Strawman arguments. Usually stating I claimed something that I didn't, or ignored something that I didn't.

None of the above build your case or defend your points.

Again, I have never denied Daicos accumulating podium finishes. That simply isn't accolade or award dominance. Nor are his accumulated statistics or Player Ratings ranking from a numbers point of view.

Finishing 3rd rather than 8th often means 10 to 15 coaches votes difference - not a big deal when so many factors can shift voting dynamics and shuffle these places. A podium finish isn't an award and it doesn't reflect dominance reflective of a GOAT run. Nobody would expect it at his age so maybe now it will start.

I'm not sure why any of this is causes so much offence and acts as a magnet for the adhom, mocking, backslapping routine along with tiresome labels and emoji-fests.

I think continuous high-placings in all major awards (moreso than anyone else) is worth a lot considering the different voting systems and volatility.

 

[doppleganger]

I've noticed you resort to emojis and a variation of label or name calling (Dog, Tigers supporter, cherry picking, Disingenuous One...there have been at least half a dozen others) when your actual arguments lack strength. You mix this in with a highly sarcastic, condescending, mocking style as you shift the goalposts or throw in Strawman arguments. Usually stating I claimed something that I didn't, or ignored something that I didn't.

None of the above build your case or defend your points.

Again, I have never denied Daicos accumulating podium finishes. That simply isn't accolade or award dominance. Nor are his accumulated statistics or Player Ratings ranking from a numbers point of view.

Finishing 3rd rather than 8th often means 10 to 15 coaches votes difference - not a big deal when so many factors can shift voting dynamics and shuffle these places. A podium finish isn't an award and it doesn't reflect dominance reflective of a GOAT run. Nobody would expect it at his age so maybe now it will start.

I'm not sure why any of this is causes so much offence and acts as a magnet for the adhom, mocking, backslapping routine along with tiresome labels and emoji-fests.

An entire dump of nothing.

Luckily I gave you the answer - no other player has been top 5, let alone top 4, in all awards plus acknowledged with AA from 2023-25.

And no other modern day player has had a better first 4 seasons than Daicos.

I'm not sure why or when you became a player ratings disciple, or what the point you are trying to make with your long winded rambles...but keep on punching, I am sure someone appreciates it.

 

[doppleganger]

I think continuous high-placings in all major awards (moreso than anyone else) is worth a lot considering the different voting systems and volatility.

Absolutely - players, coaches, media experts and umpires ALL have consistently had Daicos in top 4 players from 2023-25.

But a champion data algorithm had him 7th...

 

[Mr Meow]

I think continuous high-placings in all major awards (moreso than anyone else) is worth a lot considering the different voting systems and volatility.

But then so are 6th's instead of 3rd's, or 9th's instead of 6th's. You are just sliding further away from winning them but there isn't one specific point to draw the line where "podium finishes" should be the thing to care about. Often very few votes separate all of these players.

I'm not dismissing the merit in finishing well in awards consistently when you don't win them - but it isn't a bulletproof case for being labelled the best/most dominant player in the comp. That "undisputed" bit is what's being challenged and so there are valid points for or against. If anything "against" is presented though, a few Pies supporters act as if a war crime has been committed.

 

[RPCB]

It’s astonishing how many times that



can be used on this thread from the time one Collingwood supporter says something like “Who claimed he was the undisputed best player in which individual season?” to another Collingwood supporter (most times the same supporter) waffling on to the tune of 850 words to reach the ultimate conclusion that everyone in the competition sucks when compared to Nick Daicos.

 

[Mr Meow]

An entire dump of nothing.

Luckily I gave you the answer - no other player has been top 5, let alone top 4, in all awards plus acknowledged with AA from 2023-25.

And no other modern day player has had a better first 4 seasons than Daicos.

I'm not sure why or when you became a player ratings disciple, or what the point you are trying to make with your long winded rambles...but keep on punching, I am sure someone appreciates it.

I'm highlighting the diversionary and trolling tactics you use in a hope to reduce their frequency. Otherwise mods often clean it up anyway. It's something to consider because the childish stuff is not worth anyone's time.

Yes you answered your own question and it's something I've never denied or ridiculed as a point. Compare this to how you ridicule anything numbers based.

For a 3 year undisputed/best midfielder in the comp run, does he have accolade dominance? Combine: League MVP, Coaches Association, Brownlow, BnF, All Australian, Best Finals Player, Norm Smith.

Daicos has accumulated 6 of these.
Bontempelli has 7.
Butters has 6.
Serong has 6.
Heeney has 4.
Neale has 4.

Player Ratings average:

Daicos: 12th
Bontempelli: 1st
Butters: 10th
Serong: 9th
Heeney: 29th (2023 as a forward he was 78th, top 5 since the midfield move)
Neale: 22nd

We can say Heeney's average year as a forward in 2023 rules him out.

Neale was better in the years leading up to this, although has still had a few big highlights.

Not much separates the others, although Bontempelli obviously has the strongest case with 7 major accolades (ignoring his back to back Best League Captain awards) and 1st each year in Player Ratings.

I know Ablett wasn't coming up 2nd best when combining accolades + stats over 2007-2014. The closest 3 year run you could pick out is 2010-2012 as his Cats career ended and he joined a team getting smashed every week (hard to win any league-wide awards in the clear worst team in the comp). "Only" 6 major accolades and statistical dominance across those 3 seasons for Ablett. 7 for Swan, 5 for Judd. GAJ smashed everyone out of the park the 3 years heading into that though - the type of run Daicos hasn't gotten close to starting (yet).

Bontempelli is getting older so Daicos may start his run as the number 1 midfielder in 2026.

 

[doppleganger]

I'm highlighting the diversionary and trolling tactics you use in a hope to reduce their frequency. Otherwise mods often clean it up anyway. It's something to consider because the childish stuff is not worth anyone's time.

Good that you are going to stop wasting mods time, I am sure they appreciate that.

The question posed by the OP is Can he be the GTWEB? as Daicos has produced the best first 4 seasons of any modern player, and is already the league MVP, he is clearly on track.

 

[Dtennent94]

Bontempelli is getting older so Daicos may start his run as the number 1 midfielder in 2026.

But don’t Pies suck now? Cripple De Goney and Ned Long-Way-To-Go are his only support besides our useless youngsters.

More likely Nick is about to get that GAJ 10-12 dip.

 

[Mr Meow]

But don’t Pies suck now? Cripple De Goney and Ned Long-Way-To-Go are his only support besides our useless youngsters.

More likely Nick is about to get that GAJ 10-12 dip.

6 wins, 38 losses and average % of 58 for Gold Coast 2011-2012. You simply aren't going to rack up the league wide awards in a side that terrible. 2013 to 2014 they approached a level of competitiveness (albeit very reliant on Ablett) and that dominance per game across the awards returned - until the shoulder injury finished his 2014 season and peak run.

Will Collingwood become as bad or worse than current day West Coast in the coming years? I highly doubt it. Even worst case scenarios should have them at that Gold Coast 2013-2014 level where you can win awards.

 

[Mynamesinuse]

What, if anything, does the SOO game do for Nick’s legacy?

Is it impressive that he stood out amongst the league’s best or does it not matter for anything because we can write it off and say Nick was the only one trying?

He played well as did his fellow elite mids Bont and Butters.
Robert Harvey won 3 when the SOO was just glorified circle work.

 

[Dtennent94]

He played well as did his fellow elite mids Bont and Butters.
Robert Harvey won 3 when the SOO was just glorified circle work.

Did he play better than, equal to or worse than other players?

Do performances in SOO mean anything?

 

[Mynamesinuse]

Did he play better than, equal to or worse than other players?

Do performances in SOO mean anything?

He was in the best group. Ash Green Merret
Butters Bont Holmes King

 

[sr36]

2023-2025 Daicos has a single BnF (non-finals season), League MVP and Coaches Association award to go with the 3 AAs and no finals awards. It's a strong run but it's not accolade dominance. It has ran alongside an average Player Ratings finishing place of 10th among midfielders.

This year he has a chance to defend his League MVP title and dominate some finals, maybe winning a BnF in a strong team while he's at it. I reckon it's the year his scoring metrics (goals, goal assists and score involvements) take that next step too. With all that I'm sure he'll climb into the top 5 ranked midfielders for Player Ratings as well.

If you're using player ratings, like you are, be consistent. He had a couple of dominant finals last year, if you are using player ratings as a significant metric. But seems to be some cherry picking on whether they assist or diminish from your argument.

 

[Mr Meow]

If you're using player ratings, like you are, be consistent. He had a couple of dominant finals last year, if you are using player ratings as a significant metric. But seems to be some cherry picking on whether they assist or diminish from your argument.

I have actually already said Player Ratings rated his finals higher than the coaches have. You might look at them and say their appraisal of his overall seasons look harsh and the finals generous.

I only brought Player Ratings back into it because Fadge, Dopple and Corn were so insistent on referring to his 2025 PF rating. Fine, then use them in his season ratings too.

Everything should be considered, everything has it's own context and nuance - if various metrics disagree then there is room for debate/dispute. This goes heavily against the "undisputed best player in the game over x, y, z period" narrative and that is my overarching point. It just gets lost among all the adhom, ridicule and strawmen.

 

[sr36]

Everything should be considered, everything has it's own context and nuance - if various metrics disagree then there is room for debate/dispute. This goes heavily against the "undisputed best player in the game over x, y, z period" narrative and that is my overarching point. It just gets lost among all the adhom, ridicule and strawmen.

Undisputed is obviously hyperbolic when posters use it for Nick, or when you use it for Gaz Jr. It's always disputed.

In terms of player ratings, it's about doing things that are likely to involve scores. It's massively impacted by how attacking a team is and how many sprint forward and how many keep their shape behind the ball or when moving forward are positioning to defend the ground rather than to receive. If you're in a really attacking team what you do is more likely to result in a score. It's why 4 out of the top 6 all came from the same very attacking team. it is miles out of whack with all the other ways that are being discussed, which all spit out the same names in a slightly different order. The Coleman medal, as a metric, bares about as much comparison to all the other awards as the player ratings does - you might as well include that to heavily discount all the mids and defenders.

 

[Mr Meow]

Undisputed is obviously hyperbolic when posters use it for Nick, or when you use it for Gaz Jr. It's always disputed.

In terms of player ratings, it's about doing things that are likely to involve scores. It's massively impacted by how attacking a team is and how many sprint forward and how many keep their shape behind the ball or when moving forward are positioning to defend the ground rather than to receive. If you're in a really attacking team what you do is more likely to result in a score. It's why 4 out of the top 6 all came from the same very attacking team. it is miles out of whack with all the other ways that are being discussed, which all spit out the same names in a slightly different order. The Coleman medal, as a metric, bares about as much comparison to all the other awards as the player ratings does - you might as well include that to heavily discount all the mids and defenders.

I'm fine with context or reasoned caveats being applied to Player Ratings. The same absolutely applies to voting dynamics for each award and hence the value of "podium finishes" etc. Ultimately you can argue up or down the value of any metric used. Everything has its place and if you disagree fair enough, I'm not going to send a mountain of emojis and insult you.

I've explained my position and the reasons I don't think Daicos has been the undisputed best midfielder in the comp the previous few years. I've also explained the things Ablett ticked off to make a much stronger case for that 2007-2014. Nick hasn't started that level of run yet, dominating accolades and statistics. 3 AAs and 3 from BnF, League MVP, Coaches Association, Norm Smith, Finals MVP is a strong run over 3 years. It isn't head and shoulders above some other top line midfielders over those years.

 

[sr36]

I'm fine with context or reasoned caveats being applied to Player Ratings. The same absolutely applies to voting dynamics for each award and hence the value of "podium finishes" etc. Ultimately you can argue up or down the value of any metric used. Everything has its place and if you disagree fair enough, I'm not going to send a mountain of emojis and insult you.

I've explained my position and the reasons I don't think Daicos has been the undisputed best midfielder in the comp the previous few years. I've also explained the things Ablett ticked off to make a much stronger case for that 2007-2014. Nick hasn't started that level of run yet, dominating accolades and statistics. 3 AAs and 3 from BnF, League MVP, Coaches Association, Norm Smith, Finals MVP is a strong run over 3 years. It isn't head and shoulders above some other top line midfielders over those years.

If you lengthen the time frame, it's more likely to give you a consensus if the bloke holds his form - as many competitors won't for a variety or reasons. Was Gaz as big a consensus for 2007-2009 as he is if you include the whole time frame? Definitely not. Certainly wasn't from 2010-2012 when he wouldn't have even been the majority, etc ...