2010 Grand Finals: Whose stock has gone up, whose has gone down?

[mattyc25]

Stock Up-
Brendon Goddard: Made the transition this finals series from great player to absolute superstar and champion. Showed guts and determination and now has the utmost respect of everyone from the most diehard Pies fan to opposition coaches. Saints have one more player with his desire and they win GF#1.

Dale Thomas: Written off as a soft show pony, has shown he can handle the big stage. Threw himself into the contest and proved his many doubters wrong in not one but 2 Grand Finals. Would have been the overall Norm Smith medallist over the 2 games.

Darren Jolly: Always been a big unit but has backed it up with aggression and execution, destroyed Saints yesterday.

Lenny Hayes: Gave his all, not as damaging in GF#2 but still had 12 tackles and played his guts out. Still a Norm Smith medallist. With Goddard carried the Saints at times.

James Gwilt: Showed poise and a steely resolve. Good decision maker and showed he belongs at the highest level. Was great in GF#1 and played well despite being under siege in GF#2.

Simon Prestigiacomo: Didn’t even play but earned everyone’s respect by giving up his spot when he was not 100%. Jason Gram could learn a lesson from that selfless act. If the club didn’t love him before they do now.

Down/
Nick Riewoldt: Love him as a aplayer but the fact is unless he can perform in a GF he will never be remembered with the great CHF’s like Carey and Brereton. He has had 3, will he get another chance? Trying to kick it into the stand will haunt him (and be replayed) forever.

Travis Cloke: All season the football world has been wondering if his kicking would cost the Pies, it almost did in GF#1. Did nothing in GF#2.

Leigh Montagna: AA and got over 30 touches at will all season, missing in both GF’s. Was he even playing? Appetite for the tough contest non-existant.

Brett Peake: Ok during the regular season, useless in GF#1 and useful (for Collingwood) in GF#2, could have been named in Pies best. Opposition supporters will be hoping he plays for Saints every week.

Stephen Milne: Was not bad in GF#1 but going missing in GF#2 will mean his reputation of not being a big game player will stick with him.

Leon Davis: What can you say? Given every chance. Not even an emergency in GF#2.

Ben McEvoy: Did more in GF#1 than in GF#2. B1tched and moaned when he got brushed for GF#1 about how much it meant to him, then when he got the call up did nothing to insert himself in the contest. Should of gone with King who towelled McEvoy up at training anyway.

Ross Lyon: Had no tricks up the sleeve for GF#2. Got totally outcoached and the margin showed he was severely lacking as a motivator.

 

[AG]

Harsh on McEvoy. I thought he was ok.

Cloke and Riewoldt stay the same imo. They are prone to bad kicking in the H&A season as well so it's not like they produced the unexpected.

For me:

Seriously went up: Thomas, Gwilt, Goddard, Sidebottom, Brown

Went up: Dawson, Toovey, Macaffer, Maxwell, Shaw, Jolly (makes up for his shocking 06 GF), Hayes (again, I think he is starting to sit comfortably on the same level as some of the top midfielders we have seen over the past decade)

Not sure who went down. It was the Saints bottom 6 who were disappointing but they are already rated pretty low anyway. I thought Blake had a good year but he was a bit panicky so maybe he goes down. Montagna likewise. Milne was ok in the first game but he is a small forward and it's expected that he has a quiet game at times. Same with Davis, he has a history so it was sort of expected. So Montagna and Blake probably the only two.

 

[Footy Smarts]

One guy that hasn't been mentioned who really impressed was Dawes. Came in with the lowest reputation out of the key forwards and was easily the most impressive. Solid in GF#1 and played probably the best game of his career in GF#2 when Cloke, Reiwoldt and Koschitzke all really struggled.

 

[i_need_a_pencil]

Zac Dawson played really well in GF1... and held Cloke well in GF2.

He would be the only one I think you'd missed.

 

[The Get Up Kid]

N Brown UP

 

[Pumbi]

Saints Up: Goddard, Hayes (Expected though), Gwilt, Dawson
Pies Up: Sidebottom, Thomas, Didak (Thought he might use the injury as an excuse to have a low key GF Series), N Brown, Toovey, Maxwell

Saints Down: Montagna, Peake, Koschitzke
Pies Down: Davis

 

[Tapee]

J.Koschitzke (UP): Managed to kick a goal in each game .

 

[Swans120]

Harsh on McEvoy considering he is still young and pretty skinny. Took some very strong grabs around the ground but did get smashed by a far more experienced and stronger ruckman in Jolly. Will be a good player, I have no doubt. Put Koschitzke into the ruck with McEvoy and put Rhys Stanley into the forward line I think that is what Lyon ought to do to improve.

Zac Dawson definitely went up. I've never rated him but having seen his last 2 games he has shown he can not only be a solid player but a very good player under extreme pressure.

Nathan Brown was incredible against Riewoldt 2 weeks in a row.

Good call on Presti. Big props to him for such a selfless act. More players should do this when they know they will let their team down by playing under such injury duress.

Then of course Thomas and Goddard leaping up a few levels.

Leigh Montagna was disappointing to me.

 

[DaVe86]

A few good calls, a few bad ones there.

I thought Cloke had a great GF. Was directly responsible for a number of goals.

His goal-kicking is still the issue...but the shots he had were very tough.


Was not a forwards game, but I thought he got himself involved. His contests, 2nd efforts and in close handballing were great.

He also kicked the final goal on the first GF which saved the game for the Pies. He is still vital to our structure.




Goddard, Thomas, Gwilt and Nathan Brown would be my big 4 that have built a better reputation now. Goddard has taken himself from star to the being in the top 3 players of the game. Thomas has arrived.


Over the 2 weeks, I thought Dayne Beams showed he is not quite there yet. Has a long way to go in big games. However Steele Sidebottom has arrived.

I thought Peake was exposed for the Saints as was Robert Eddy

 

[Judd2Sewell]

Surely Montagna was carrying some sort of injury?

Anyway, players who went up in my estimation (and that's not to say I didn't rate them in the first place):
- Thomas, Brown, Wellingham, Shaw, Maxwell, Jolly, Sidebottom
- Gwilt, Goddard, Hayes, Dawson

Players who went down:
- Beams, Didak (though he was obviously injured and is well known for his pathetic softness anyway)
- Kosi, Milne (christ they're both aweful), Gram

 

[up_the_lions]

Up:
Goddard - Obviously was an elite player going into the Grand Finals, however I now have him on a par or even better than Ablett, Judd, Hodge, Hayes.

Thomas - Had a great season, but really cemented himself as an A-grader. Hard at the contest and so creative it's ridiculous.

Hayes - Should go down as a true legend of the game. Work rate and desperation at the contest is a marvel. Deserved better in GF2.

Macaffer - Always thought he showed a bit. Great work rate, and tidy skills, very important cog.

Brown - His first season he looked like being a superstar, then seemed to get lost in the football wilderness, but was sensational in both games, completely nullifying Riewoldt in GF2.

Shaw - Never rated him, always thought he was a bit soft and didn't earn many kicks, proven very wrong.

Gwilt: Reliable in the contest, great user. All you can want from a backman.

Sidebottom - Incredibly composed, very opportunistic and has a massive future obviously.

Down:
Riewoldt - If there's ever been a consistent knock on him, it's that he doesn't stand up when he's really needed. Has confirmed this and should not be thought of with the Careys of the game as a result.

Montagna - Too outside. The game didn't open up enough in either GF to be purely a reciever and was anonymous in both.

Dawson - Wasn't terrible, in fact held Cloke quite well, but if he has the ball under pressure, well god help St. Kilda. Coughs it up like nothing I've ever seen. Don't think he's the answer at full back.

Peake - Did he ever have any stock.

St. Kilda's depth - If Eddy, Peake, McQualter, Dawson, Baker in the state he seemed to be in and even Koschitzke are in their best 22, they need a revamp of the bottom side of their list dramatically.

Cloke - Set shot kicking is a given, I just don't see the upside. Obviously took a s***load of marks, but I'd love to see that broken down according to opposition. Mentally weak?

Beams - Not the damaging player I thought he was, in fact a bit of a non-factor both times around. Thought he was clearly ahead of Sidebottom and Macaffer pre-season, not the case.

 

[Dylz48]

Zac Dawson played really well in GF1... and held Cloke well in GF2.

He would be the only one I think you'd missed.

He didn't hold Cloke in GF #2 he dragged him down to his level. All he did was put the elbows in every time his opponent turned his back. Scott Cummings summed it up perfectly when he said "Zac showed very littile courage today" I am just thankful he isn't a premiership player.

 

[Chewy]

Good posts, guys. Nothing further to add regarding the players.


Stocks are up:

Umpires - "Why can't they umpire like that all year round?" said 500,000 people to the person standing next to them.

Nathan Buckley - some people will say that he's on a hiding to nothing when he takes over the reins from Mick Malthouse. Unless he delivers instant results he'll be perceived as a failure. Such is life in the football world with every peanut chucking in their two cents. But I tend to believe he has made a huge impact as Collingwood's forwards coach and done well with an average group: Cloke, Dawes, Brown, Wellingham, Beams, Macaffer, etc. Bucks has got them playing discplined selfless footy, teaming very well with each other, locking the ball in with fanatical gang-tackling and generally looking very dangerous. They function very well, even if they don't have enormous talent.


Stocks are down:

Taylor and Cameron Henderson - Australia's national anthem is cheesy enough without turning it into a hippy Simon and Garfunkel ditty. The AFL should've hired Bobby Andonov to sing instead. Now that Australian has got talent...

Joffa Corfe - the show is wearing very thin, fella. You should've stuck with the self-imposed media ban during Grand final week.

 

[Damon_3388]

Obviously he had very little impact in the replay, but I think Leigh Montagna's performance in the draw is being severely underrated here - 23 disposals (including 16 contested possessions), 5 clearances, 11 tackles, 4 inside 50's, 11 one-percenters, and a Champion Data Player Ranking score of 140 (rated equal third-best on ground, with Lenny Hayes scoring 174, Brendon Goddard with 162 and Dale Thomas with 140).

Also, I have no idea why (as mentioned in here by some opposition supporters) Dale Thomas and Heath Shaw (arguably the most courageous player at Collingwood) were ever rated as 'soft' in the first place. Erratic and inconsistent at times, yes, but they've always gone when it's their turn, and I can't remember either of them ever taking a backwards step throughout their careers.

 

[Macca19]

Thought Beams had a terrific year and looked the better out of he and Sidebottom of the 2nd year Pies mids, but he was very inconspicuous and seemed overawed in both matches, whilst Sidebottom was in Collingwoods top 3 in each.

 

[Pumbi]

Obviously he had very little impact in the replay, but I think Leigh Montagna's performance in the draw is being severely underrated here - 23 disposals (including 16 contested possessions), 5 clearances, 11 tackles, 4 inside 50's, 11 one-percenters, and a Champion Data Player Ranking score of 140 (rated equal third-best on ground, with Lenny Hayes scoring 174, Brendon Goddard with 162 and Dale Thomas with 140).

Thanks for bringing this up. More evidence to suggest that statistics should be taken with a grain of salt. Anyone who actually watched that match would know that Montagna was not as influential as his alleged 'score' of 140. He was not even close to being in the Top 3 Players in the match. Even if you assess that match as 'good', his poor effort in the replay means that he fits the criteria of this thread.

 

[gaz15]

Thomas was unbeleivable, though i have always been confident he would make it. In his first few games watched him attack the contest and i think that is always a reasonable indicator. Has shook his 'soft' tag for good. (not that he deserved it in the first place).

Sidebottom- had a few chats with pie supporters early in the year and most were of the opinion Beams was the better, but there was somerhting about sidebottom in my eyes that would make him better. Creative, keeps his head over the ball and looks like a 200 game player.

Goddard- always had doubts about his heart but has proved me wrong. Played some hard footy over this season and is the equal of any player in the comp with his foot skills.

 

[Premiersupporter]

UP- Dale Thomas, Lenny Hayes, Brendon Goddard, Nick Maxwell, Farren Ray, Zac Dawson, Nathan Brown, Sam Gilbert.
DOWN- Roo (riewoldt), Peake, Eddy, Beams, Davis...

Dale Thomas-although a sainter, have always kinda liked him, his reputation went up for me! went in harder, longer, REALLY wanted it..and got it.
Lenny Hayes- knew he was a superstar but he is a SUPASTAR. honestly this man is a legend, gave evrything he had and more. is there anyone who really hates him and wouldn't want to see him get a premiership at sometime!
Brendon Goddard- ditto for Lenny. some acts of BJ saved the saints at times. what i find sad is he took mark of the year twice and didn't get it. finals and liam jurrah! lol
Nick Maxwell- this may seem kinda stupid to put the captain but I honestly never looked how good he is and.....good job to pies, you got a good leader.
Farren Ray-kinda thought of him as a fringe player but was vital. closed down swan who is a match-winner. awesome job.
Zac Dawson- always get scared when its a pressure situation and hes 1-on-1 but really stood up. Against Cloke, Dawes did what a full-back is supposed to do-defend and against Didak, made sure he couldn't work any magic and gave him a big bump. (boot in the face helped of course) he can stand up in finals.
Nathan Brown-he held Riewoldt. massive job for any player, let alone a younger man. he may not be one of the stars but he can quietly know that HE won a premiership. (not entirely him but pies couldn't have done it if roo had owned)
Sam Gilbert- knew he had talent but he defends, runs and managed to keep Nick Maxwell under control when he was owning and was a little spark-something different in saints forward line.
Not gonna talk about the downs cos I don't wanna feel rude and I can't be bothered typing it! BTW I have thought of these from GF#1 because that was a real pressure situation, the real deal and i don't really wanna reflect on gf#2!

 

[LordJimmy]

Beams is 19. If he plays in a grand final in six years we can judge him then (although after what happened that's not likely).

Besides, I don't know anyone who actually watched both of them who rated Beams better. Sidebottom was a star from the go. Beams kicked a few flashy goals in one game and got all the attention. I can't believe people are only just realising who is better.

 

[AG]

Beams had a much better H&A season imo. Sidebottom was probably lucky not to be dropped towards the end of the year.

Long term it is probably Sidebottom who will be better, he has the 'big game player' tag stuck to him already. Proved it in the TAC cup and now the big league.

 

[Mental Magpie]

Beams is 19. If he plays in a grand final in six years we can judge him then (although after what happened that's not likely).

Besides, I don't know anyone who actually watched both of them who rated Beams better. Sidebottom was a star from the go. Beams kicked a few flashy goals in one game and got all the attention. I can't believe people are only just realising who is better.

Beams had a much better H&A season imo. Sidebottom was probably lucky not to be dropped towards the end of the year.

Long term it is probably Sidebottom who will be better, he has the 'big game player' tag stuck to him already. Proved it in the TAC cup and now the big league.

They're both guns!

 

[themidlandmaster]

For me, Swan went down a little bit. Was massively shown up about Pies fans bragging that he was "untaggable', Ray did a great job on him.

 

[Ochre]

If Lenny's kick had bounced straight, Ross Lyon would be seen as the best coach in the AFL atm, instead he'd now be struggling to be in the top 4, maybe even 8

 

[Reincarnation]

Leigh Montagna is fast becoming a real flat track bully. Considering his 'status' as an 'elite' midfield I expect a quality game out of him in either GF1 or GF2. Yes he has become a good player but he is over-rated since his break out season a few years back.

 

[Reincarnation]

If Lenny's kick had bounced straight, Ross Lyon would be seen as the best coach in the AFL atm, instead he'd now be struggling to be in the top 4, maybe even 8

I think we have a few years left to win the big one so all is not lost.

How good was Dale Thomas?

Very.