Training 2017/2018 Pre-season Thread

[Samcro24]

<3

Even got a goose at the end.

 

[jo172]

The problem most people see is the dates on those two videos ...

Published on 3 Jul 2016
Published on 1 Nov 2016

I see something there too, but how long can we wait for the flower to blossom - before we give his space in the greenhouse to someone else?

He played one season out of necessity for the reserves structure as a Key Defender.

Hanging out a bloke to dry when he was forced to play as a Key Defender for reasons of team balance is very very short sighted given the potential he showed as an 18 year old KPF.

 

[Vader]

JJ needs to man up and realise he's a 200cm 100kg tank who shouldn't act like a pussy on the ground.

Til he does he will be useless to our chances of winning a premiership.

Except that he's not a tank, and never will be. He's a 100kg tall, with excellent pace & endurance.

The sooner people get over this weird obsession with turning him into something he's not, and never will be, the better. Stop imagining him to be something he's not, and your blood pressure will come down straight away.

JJ is a tall leading forward, not a pack crashing monster. Leading forwards require space to lead into. If the opposition are able to clog the forward line, the way Richmond did in the GF, then they inevitably struggle. McGovern is our pack crashing monster, and he was injured when we got to the big dance last September.

 

[baldandbroke]

He played one season out of necessity for the reserves structure as a Key Defender.

Hanging out a bloke to dry when he was forced to play as a Key Defender for reasons of team balance is very very short sighted given the potential he showed as an 18 year old KPF.

Look I'm on your side ... I also understand why many people have written him off.

I see something in the way he plays BUT I have not seen him play in person, and I am making a guess on very little info. He has great hands, great movement, good kick, great aggression. That's my type of player.

 

[Bicks]

What? He kicked 37 goals in his first season playing as a key forward? Then he played a year as a Key Defender.

What Harry Dear are you talking about?

The same Harry Dear you are!
Dear kicked 37 goals in his 2nd season.
He played 4 games in his 1st season.
This is Dear's 4th year on our list.


Dear played a year as a key defender?
Dear played a few games down back is my recollection?

 

[Vader]

Well John ... again that is my point. If he is not a big bodied pack crashing contested mark (which we ALL agree he is not) then why is he in the team again?

If his usefulness is speed - then we have faster players in the squad ... that have other good attributes.
If you are claiming that it's his speed for his size - that would explain why he is so easily shut down in big games. It's just a simple plan.

As a defensive unit - which team targeted JJ in their plans do you think? Does anyone here suggest that JJ would provide any sort of problem to the opposition that almost ANY other forward could also provide?

That's why everyone says "if only he was physical". Because then it would make sense to choose Jenkins over other players ... but as we have all seen, as we all know (not just JohnWho and Vader) that is not ever going to happen with Jenkins. He is an outside, non-contested mark, average back-up ruck, with very little football nous ... who loves to get on the end of chains to kick goals.

I would happily get Jenkins out of our 22 and replace him with ANY player that provides a contest and pressure. Harry Dear loves the contest it's in his DNA, he also has an entire lifetime of football learning behind him. Fogarty is an outside chance, just because of his attitude to the contested side.

What would we lose? What would we gain?

His combination of speed & size makes him really hard to match up on. Put a tall player on him, and JJ will run away from him. Put a smaller (faster) player on him, and JJ will use his height to outmark him. That's the advantage he has, and the reason why he's kicked around 100 goals in the last 2 years (combined). His ability to provide Sauce with a break from the rucking is a definite bonus, but it's not his primary role.

What Richmond did was to clog up our forward line completely, so JJ had nowhere to run and no way of using his height to advantage in a 1-on-1 contest. The reason they were able to do this is because their midfielders worked so much harder than ours, slowing our ball movement through the midfield and allowing them time to flood back in large numbers. That's not JJ's fault, it's the fault of our lazy midfielders who went into the game with a sense of entitlement, rather than a determination to work their butts off for the final & ultimate reward.

 

[baldandbroke]

Except that he's not a tank, and never will be. He's a 100kg tall, with excellent pace & endurance.

The sooner people get over this weird obsession with turning him into something he's not, and never will be, the better. Stop imagining him to be something he's not, and your blood pressure will come down straight away.

JJ is a tall leading forward, not a pack crashing monster. Leading forwards require space to lead into. If the opposition are able to clog the forward line, the way Richmond did in the GF, then they inevitably struggle. McGovern is our pack crashing monster, and he was injured when we got to the big dance last September.

Vader, the point is who is he keeping out of the team ... and would we be better with that someone else?

For instance - If we had a leading forward that provided pressure OR one that could contest in the air - would we be a tougher team to play?

He is a forward that kicks the majority of his goals in the goal square at the end of fast break chains. How can that be a valued commodity? How many goals did Jenkins kick last year from good leads and converting? If that was his bread and butter then I'm happy to stand corrected.

 

[Vader]

Vader, the point is who is he keeping out of the team ... and would we be better with that someone else?

For instance - If we had a leading forward that provided pressure OR one that could contest in the air - would we be a tougher team to play?

He is a forward that kicks the majority of his goals in the goal square at the end of fast break chains. How can that be a valued commodity? How many goals did Jenkins kick last year from good leads and converting? If that was his bread and butter then I'm happy to stand corrected.

Our SANFL tall forwards are Dear, Himmelberg, and Fogarty (hopefully not for long). JJ is miles better than either of the first two, and Fogarty really isn't like-for-like. He's a 50 goal-per-year forward, who does exactly what the coaches want of him more often than not. He'd be a starting player at all 17 of the other clubs, just as he is at Adelaide.

Judge him by what he is, and what he does - not what you dream that he should be doing.

 

[Bicks]

Our SANFL tall forwards are Dear, Himmelberg, and Fogarty (hopefully not for long). JJ is miles better than either of the first two, and Fogarty really isn't like-for-like. He's a 50 goal-per-year forward, who does exactly what the coaches want of him more often than not. He'd be a starting player at all 17 of the other clubs, just as he is at Adelaide.

Judge him by what he is, and what he does - not what you dream that he should be doing.

Have a feeling you'll be changing that opinion re Himmelberg quite quickly and I'm not a critic of JJ btw.

 

[John Who]

JJ's debates are always fun for me - like the chicken and egg. Did the chicken lay the egg? Or did the egg hatch the chicken?
Everyone can have their opinion, and noone's entirely right or wrong. And no one will be any wiser after a healthy (or unhealthy) discussion.

 

[FAITH]

Except that he's not a tank, and never will be. He's a 100kg tall, with excellent pace & endurance.

The sooner people get over this weird obsession with turning him into something he's not, and never will be, the better. Stop imagining him to be something he's not, and your blood pressure will come down straight away.

JJ is a tall leading forward, not a pack crashing monster. Leading forwards require space to lead into. If the opposition are able to clog the forward line, the way Richmond did in the GF, then they inevitably struggle. McGovern is our pack crashing monster, and he was injured when we got to the big dance last September.

I'm gonna do a blighty here and say, that gf performance from JJ was the most pathetic performance I've seen by any crows player since the club came into existence.

People need to stop defending him or else he won't change.
He definitively has it in him to be more aggressive, he's 200cm, 100kg player as I said before.

Its all in his head IMO, he enjoys playing bruise free footy.

I get so annoyed because he could be an absolute star.

 

[Macca Pakka]

That Buddy Franklin guy seems to go alright without crashing too many packs.

I wonder whether we’d want to send him back to the SANFL to toughen up too?!

 

[Kane McGoodwin]

I'm gonna do a blighty here and say, that gf performance from JJ was the most pathetic performance I've seen by any crows player since the club came into existence.

People need to stop defending him or else he won't change.
He definitively has it in him to be more aggressive, he's 200cm, 100kg player as I said before.

Its all in his head IMO, he enjoys playing bruise free footy.

I get so annoyed because he could be an absolute star.

Quite a hero to call someone playing with a busted rib pathetic...

 

[baldandbroke]

Our SANFL tall forwards are Dear, Himmelberg, and Fogarty (hopefully not for long). JJ is miles better than either of the first two, and Fogarty really isn't like-for-like. He's a 50 goal-per-year forward, who does exactly what the coaches want of him more often than not. He'd be a starting player at all 17 of the other clubs, just as he is at Adelaide.

Why is JJ better than the first two? In what way? I'm trying to understand the feature of JJ's game that is so far above his possible replacements.

You say he runs hard and lead-up marks? Not that I see. That is not his go-to move. His go to move is to avoid his opponent, and get into open space to receive the last handball in the goal square.

Judge him by what he is, and what he does - not what you dream that he should be doing.

What he is and what he does ... he IS an unimportant part of our team that gives bugger all to whether we win or lose. What he does is very little that couldn't be replaced by someone who actually contributes in a more effective way.

I dream of him playing at another club.

 

[baldandbroke]

That Buddy Franklin guy seems to go alright without crashing too many packs.

I wonder whether we’d want to send him back to the SANFL to toughen up too?!

Are you calling Buddy soft? Shark jumped.

 

[Sanders]

You and EC are starting to sound like drones, with the same repeated one-liner as quoted. Running out of witty jokes?

Who says they’re for your benefit?

 

[FAITH]

Quite a hero to call someone playing with a busted rib pathetic...

You can keep defending him all you like.
Probably one of the reasons this club has been mediocre for so long is because we make excuses for our players so easily.

 

[Scorpus]

Quite a hero to call someone playing with a busted rib pathetic...

Was his rib still busted or is it just an excuse?

I mean since the injury actually occurred (and after he returned) it didn't stop Jenkins kicking 3 or more goals on 9 occasions, competiting in the ruck and having 5 or more hitouts 13 times, or taking more than 100 marks and 25 contested marks. He also had a game with 21 touches and another game with 13 tackles in that time.

But no the busted rib from round 2 stopped him performing in the Grand Final

 

[Sanders]

Getting a bit negative there. never answer a discussion or argument with an insult, I thought you would know that, after quoting Jack Welch.
Now your problem with this, due to your blinding dislike of JJ you neglected to find out what the initial question was.
ie when was the Last time JJ defeated his Man 1 on 1. - I answered, then followed up with the coaches believed he did, he received 11 coaches votes, now most understand how the votes are awarded. (if not I have added the 1-4 count) And by simply applying that rule he played his role and a few coaches have also voted as influencing the game. Remembering there are only 5 coaches voting 1-4
So in order to reply to your comment, it does not matter where he came in in the order on the day because that was not the question.

Sanders, you are very predictable in you argumentive style, not a good trait in the business world. My suggestion at this time, read Dale Carnegie book How to Win Friends and Influence People,





Club Champion Voting Protocol
1 vote: Played their role. Solid game without significant influence on the game
2 votes: Played his role well and influenced the game
3 votes: Played his role very well with significant influence on the game
4 votes: Played his role outstandingly and dominated the game

Sorry, did you say you were answering a question of when he beat his man one on one?

And then you’re arguing getting votes for “playing his role” meant he beat his opponent 1:1

Surely even your foggy perspective can see that’s not analogous

 

[Sanders]

Ok you got me!
Though comparing a defender and a forward for the amount of tackles, is the same as comparisons with goals for. ie. not very useful comparisons!

Comparing a forward with a defender for tackles is entirely appropriate and not in any way like goals

In fact they should be tackling each other

 

[John Who]

Are you calling Buddy soft? Shark jumped.

Great call Macca Pakka. JJ is probably a closer comparison to Buddy than most of the other big-bodied forwards. They both use their speed and agility as weapons, not their strength in pack marks.

 

[baldandbroke]

Something I want to be clear on here ... I cheer for Jenkins once he puts on the jumper. I want him to be the difference. Once you cross the white line for our club you are one of my guys.

What I find muddling, is the real confusion as to why we pick him. I feel the same about Mackay. Now obviously he does what the coaches want, or he wouldn't play at all. I just don't see what he provides that will be difference when we need it. I don't think I know better, and I don't think everyone else is dumb. My opinion counts for as little as anyone else's on here.

I believe we would be a better team without Jenkins or Mackay ... that's all. I think we have players that could grow into something a lot more than those two provide on field.

I hope JJ has an amazing year and kicks the winning goal in GF after a beautiful pass from Mackay streaming out of the centre. I just feel the likelihood of that might be very very small ... close to nada. Hope I'm wrong.

 

[baldandbroke]

Great call Macca Pakka. JJ is probably a closer comparison to Buddy than most of the other big-bodied forwards. They both use their speed and agility as weapons, not their strength in pack marks.

Holy crapola. Please stop.

 

[Sanders]

I think the point that is being repeated about JJ is not just about to the GF.

It's about his role in the team, and why we have a 100kg beast that doesn't play like a 100kg beast. What does he bring that is so important? If it's not his physicality (which it isn't) are some claiming he in the team for his aerobic strength? His skill? His marking? His play making?

That's all I see as the problem. Who is he keeping out - what are we missing because JJ is in the team ... and could we be better without him?

The simple question is this: does JJ make our forward system tick or is he a beneficiary of that system

Contributor or recipient

We saw last year the answer to that question, we scored as well, often higher than usual, when JJ was out and Otten played his role

JJ is a beneficiary of our system

It has also been shown no tall forward who kicks as many goals as JJ is so poorly regarded his coaches

 

[Large 1]

Are you calling Buddy soft? Shark jumped.

No, he is saying buddy franklins is a tall forward who doesn’t, and never has played, as a ‘big forward’.

He is not great above his head and almost never crashes a pack. What he is good at is being more mobile than his opponent and this makes him one of the best (if not the best) forward in the AFL.

As the saying goes, “you don’t judge a fish by how well he can climb a tree”.

Jenkins is built like a big forward but plays like a medium forward. If you assess him by medium forward standards he measures up well.