Opinion Derailed Off-Topic Thread / Are You Bored With Life? discussion

[TrainRoo32]

we could of course have wildly different personal views but I'm right with you there mate lol

I don't know mate, but I was doing an internship in Congress last year during the presidential primaries in a deeply Red office.
I have never loved Australia more

 

[DD#23]

I agree with your point Nikki but the issue is that the ABC is a government funded institution!
And as such an easy target when they get it wrong, as the recent Yasmin tweet shows.

arguably being occasionally controversial is a greater service to the community than acting as echo chamber for the majority view, especially being a government funded institution.

I don't know mate, but I was doing an internship in Congress last year during the presidential primaries in a deeply Red office.
I have never loved Australia more

I'm sure you can't, but geeze I wouldn't mind hearing some stories from there!

 

[TrainRoo32]

arguably being occasionally controversial is a greater service to the community than acting as echo chamber for the majority view, especially being a government funded institution.


I'm sure you can't, but geeze I wouldn't mind hearing some stories from there!

Had to work on a southern accent, constituents weren't not impressed if a "foreigner" answered their calls hahah

 

[Bay62]

They lean left because they pay much lower than the other channels so the people who work there are generally young, at the start of their careers so care about young people things (education, environment) which is generally more on the left side of politics.

Should I be worried that essential components of our society like education and the environment are seen as "young people things"?

Or should I be glad that my concern about them puts me in the "young" category at the age of 54?

 

[Bicks]

Should I be worried that essential components of our society like education and the environment are seen as "young people things"?

Or should I be glad that my concern about them puts me in the "young" category at the age of 54?

The Education system is so badly broken it's become a joke especially at University level when even dumb klutzes get to go to University currently. The ATAR score needed for entry has become laughable yet the taxpayer is supposed to support these students to the tune of $137,500 over the course of their studies.....and that's if they complete the course...many drop out. Students with marks up to 40 points below the advertised cut off are being accepted in fields such as business, teaching and engineering It's a rort at the the taxpayer's expense! I won't mention what Political Party introduced this rort on the taxpayer and is today railing against minor changes to rein in this ridiculous situation. Our Education $$$$'s need to be far better targeted to get far better outcomes for students and the taxpayer.

http://www.smh.com.au/national/educ...-with-atars-as-low-as-30-20160125-gmdvr6.html

The admissions data, seen for the first time by Fairfax Media, comes four years after the cap on student numbers was lifted by the federal government in 2012 allowing universities to recruit as many students as they can fit. The majority of degrees are funded by the federal government through student loans paid to the universities. The loan, often worth more than $20,000, is later repaid by students when they earn over $54,000. Students with marks up to 40 points below the advertised course cut-off are being accepted in fields such as business, teaching and engineering, according to the 2016 admissions figures from the University of Sydney, UNSW, Macquarie University and Western Sydney University.NSW Education Minister Adrian Piccoli said that universities were putting their reputations at risk, and that there was no excuse for admitting such large numbers of sub-standard students.

 

[baldandbroke]

The Education system is so badly broken it's become a joke especially at University level when even dumb klutzes get to go to University currently. The ATAR score needed for entry has become laughable yet the taxpayer is supposed to support these students to the tune of $137,500 over the course of their studies.....and that's if they complete the course...many drop out. Students with marks up to 40 points below the advertised cut off are being accepted in fields such as business, teaching and engineering It's a rort at the the taxpayer's expense! I won't mention what Political Party introduced this rort on the taxpayer and is today railing against minor changes to rein in this ridiculous situation. Our Education $$$$'s need to be far better targeted to get far better outcomes for students and the taxpayer.

http://www.smh.com.au/national/educ...-with-atars-as-low-as-30-20160125-gmdvr6.html

It's not an education system, it's an accreditation system.

 

[dogs105]

The Education system is so badly broken it's become a joke especially at University level when even dumb klutzes get to go to University currently. The ATAR score needed for entry has become laughable yet the taxpayer is supposed to support these students to the tune of $137,500 over the course of their studies.....and that's if they complete the course...many drop out. Students with marks up to 40 points below the advertised cut off are being accepted in fields such as business, teaching and engineering It's a rort at the the taxpayer's expense! I won't mention what Political Party introduced this rort on the taxpayer and is today railing against minor changes to rein in this ridiculous situation. Our Education $$$$'s need to be far better targeted to get far better outcomes for students and the taxpayer.

http://www.smh.com.au/national/educ...-with-atars-as-low-as-30-20160125-gmdvr6.html

Did you go to Uni mate?

 

[DD#23]

Did you go to Uni mate?

don't think you have to go to uni to learn how to read, you might be better off leading with an argument.

 

[StonesThrow]

Just started uni this year coming from 10+ years in the workforce.

I have to say there are a lot of people who shouldn't be here even though I hold a liberal view on education. A lot of resources and money going to waste on students who don't give a s**t or have chosen the wrong degree.

A lot of people love ragging on uni but fail to put in close to the required effort even at first year level.

I'm a bit biased here but I would recommend school leavers take a break after year 12. Have seen a bunch drop out already who had zero idea of what they were getting into.

 

[Scorpus]

Just started uni this year coming from 10+ years in the workforce.

I have to say there are a lot of people who shouldn't be here even though I hold a liberal view on education. A lot of resources and money going to waste on students who don't give a s**t or have chosen the wrong degree.

A lot of people love ragging on uni but fail to put in close to the required effort even at first year level.

I'm a bit biased here but I would recommend school leavers take a break after year 12. Have seen a bunch drop out already who had zero idea of what they were getting into.

Similar position here. There are loads of students doing degrees because they have no idea what they want to do, and just want something to do after finishing school. Many of these students are wasting time or wasting money, and will drop out at some point. Part of the problem is being told at school how you should strive to go to uni, and how not getting a degree makes you of a lesser quality, which is not true.

 

[DD#23]

yep, there are massive problems and pouring money into it isn't going to fix anything. Things have been changing so quickly no one involved even knows what the problems are let alone the solutions.

I know teachers, principals and SSOs at (public) high school level as well as Masters and PhD students (as well as having post-grad experience myself), and it is nothing short of jaw-dropping to hear about and see how things at every level are run. The whole thing almost needs burning to the ground to be quite honest, they are radically progressive when it comes to changing things and I guarantee you if you're even 5 years out of schooling you wouldn't recognise what goes on today.

I mean dumbing down the SACE and taking on too many university students is the lowest of the low hanging fruit. Its a massive concern. The bottom line is its a HELL of a lot easier to * up a complicated system than improve it, and (especially when it comes to public schooling) the lunatics have well and truly taken over the asylum.

massive, massive concern.

 

[dogs105]

don't think you have to go to uni to learn how to read, you might be better off leading with an argument.

why an argument?

 

[DD#23]

why an argument?

well it sounded a lot like you were angling for an ad hominem there so I assumed you disagree with what Bicks is trying to say there.

if you do, an argument is a much better way to rebut what he's posted - if I assumed wrong, then disregard my post.

 

[dogs105]

well it sounded a lot like you were angling for an ad hominem there so I assumed you disagree with what Bicks is trying to say there.

if you do, an argument is a much better way to rebut what he's posted - if I assumed wrong, then disregard my post.

will do

 

[Bicks]

The Program for International Student Assessments rankings shows Singapore first, Australia 14th.

http://www.bbc.com/news/education-38212070



Now compare % of GDP spent on education in this ranking.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_spending_on_education_(%_of_GDP)

We spend 5.1% of GDP on education, while the number one country Singapore only spends 3.3%.

Think there is a causal correlation between spending and student performance?

 

[dogs105]

The Program for International Student Assessments rankings shows Singapore first, Australia 14th.

http://www.bbc.com/news/education-38212070



Now compare % of GDP spent on education in this ranking.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_spending_on_education_(%_of_GDP)

We spend 5.1% of GDP on education, while the number one country Singapore only spends 3.3%.

Think there is a causal correlation between spending and student performance?

There is some, but there are other factors at play of course. Big cultural factors with Singapore and Hong Kong which have been shown by research.

 

[DD#23]

Think there is a causal correlation between spending and student performance?

I think you have to be careful about putting too much stock in these kind of tests.

its some indicator of how atrociously inefficient our education spending is though.

 

[Bicks]

I think you have to be careful about putting too much stock in these kind of tests.

its some indicator of how atrociously inefficient our education spending is though.

Here's where the difference between Singapore and Australia stands out and it's definitely not the "cultural" thing so much as the quality of Teachers coming through the system.

Here we have students undertaking Teacher Degrees that barely scraped through into the ATAR score needed, or as pointed out in the SMH article I posted earlier sometimes 40 points below the required ATAR score whereas in Singapore only the top 5% are considered for Teaching Degrees. In Australia in a lot of the cases it's expecting our students to soar like an eagle when they are being taught by turkeys.

http://www.bbc.com/news/education-38212070

Prof Sing Kong Lee, vice-president of Nanyang Technological University, which houses Singapore's National Institute of Education, said a key factor had been the standard of teaching. "Singapore invested heavily in a quality teaching force - to raise up the prestige and status of teaching and to attract the best graduates," said Prof Lee. The country recruits its teachers from the top 5% of graduates in a system that is highly centralised. All teachers are trained at the National Institute of Education, and Prof Lee said this single route ensured quality control and that all new teachers could "confidently go through to the classroom".
This had to be a consistent, long-term approach, sustained over decades, said Prof Lee.
Education was an "eco-system", he said, and "you can't change one part in isolation".

 

[StonesThrow]

The problem is no government will be willing to make education reform as the effects are long term and not short term. The only short term decisions will be budget cuts.

You can't be in favour of budget cuts (negligible in terms of the deficit) on education if no structural reform is also taking place as the consequences will fall on the standard of teaching as well as wages. All determinants for long term NEGATIVE effects in an age where higher skills are and will be needed.

 

[dogs105]

Here's where the difference between Singapore and Australia stands out and it's definitely not the "cultural" thing so much as the quality of Teachers coming through the system.

Here we have students undertaking Teacher Degrees that barely scraped through into the ATAR score needed, or as pointed out in the SMH article I posted earlier sometimes 40 points below the required ATAR score whereas in Singapore only the top 5% are considered for Teaching Degrees. In Australia in a lot of the cases it's expecting our students to soar like an eagle when they are being taught by turkeys.

http://www.bbc.com/news/education-38212070

It has been shown that culture is a big part of it. In Singapore, it is not unknown for children to finish school and have 4 hours of private tutoring because school results are so important to the parents. Teacher quality is also part of this culture, and teachers are respected, well-trained and well-paid. This is the direction Australia is moving in with teacher training now, beginning with all graduates needing to be in top 30% of population in literacy and numeracy before they graduate, as well as more accountability in teacher training than public Universities have had to have before. They also have to demonstrate being able to have a positive impact on students in the classroom.

It's still hard to attract quality people to teaching, partially because it is no longer a respected profession.

Generally, it's futile to try to pick out one factor as the "main" reason for something happening, without trying to actually measure this.

 

[Pdub]

The Education system is so badly broken it's become a joke especially at University level when even dumb klutzes get to go to University currently. The ATAR score needed for entry has become laughable yet the taxpayer is supposed to support these students to the tune of $137,500 over the course of their studies.....and that's if they complete the course...many drop out. Students with marks up to 40 points below the advertised cut off are being accepted in fields such as business, teaching and engineering It's a rort at the the taxpayer's expense! I won't mention what Political Party introduced this rort on the taxpayer and is today railing against minor changes to rein in this ridiculous situation. Our Education $$$$'s need to be far better targeted to get far better outcomes for students and the taxpayer.

http://www.smh.com.au/national/educ...-with-atars-as-low-as-30-20160125-gmdvr6.html

The Taxpayer doesn't pay for their studies, it's a loan that the student has to pay back as soon as they are earning money.

 

[Bicks]

It has been shown that culture is a big part of it. In Singapore, it is not unknown for children to finish school and have 4 hours of private tutoring because school results are so important to the parents. Teacher quality is also part of this culture, and teachers are respected, well-trained and well-paid. This is the direction Australia is moving in with teacher training now, beginning with all graduates needing to be in top 30% of population in literacy and numeracy before they graduate, as well as more accountability in teacher training than public Universities have had to have before. They also have to demonstrate being able to have a positive impact on students in the classroom.

It's still hard to attract quality people to teaching, partially because it is no longer a respected profession.

Generally, it's futile to try to pick out one factor as the "main" reason for something happening, without trying to actually measure this.

You don't think 30% is setting the bar way too low for a teacher.

Not sure this isn't more of the same with what's been announced today as well.

http://www.pm.gov.au/media/2017-05-02/true-needs-based-funding-australias-schools

 

[Bicks]

The Taxpayer doesn't pay for their studies, it's a loan that the student has to pay back as soon as they are earning money.

Think you had better do some research there mate...

 

[Pdub]

Think you had better do some research there mate...

It's in the article you quoted in your post.

The majority of degrees are funded by the federal government through student loans paid to the universities. The loan, often worth more than $20,000, is later repaid by students when they earn over $54,000.

But I don't need to do research, I received a Hex/HELP loan and paid it off.

 

[dogs105]

You don't think 30% is setting the bar way too low for a teacher.

Not sure this isn't more of the same with what's been announced today as well.

http://www.pm.gov.au/media/2017-05-02/true-needs-based-funding-australias-schools

I would prefer if it were higher. But Australia can't attract enough students to teaching as it is. There is an excess of Primary Teachers, but shortage of Secondary in SA, particularly in Maths, Science, Tech Studies and Home Ec. We need some way of attracting higher achievers, who have good communication skills, high emotional intelligence, are caring, and who want to be great teachers. That's the really hard bit. Need to be like medicine, which used to attract the not-so-smart students until it became highly paid and prestigious and then could only accept top students. I don't think just pay is a good idea for teaching though, as it's not something people should do just for the money.


The announcement today is basically just the continuation of Gonski, with a tiny amount taken from some rich private schools. A new funding review will start too.