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List Mgmt. 2023 List Management and Trading (Part 2)

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Vader said:
Do you have a link to the article? I can't find anything on Google or the AFL website. Not doubting you, just trying to find the article you referenced.
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PeterSalt said:
From the article below:

"For instance, it would have allowed Adelaide to list one of Rory Sloane or Taylor Walker as a veteran for 2024 and opened up another spot on their primary list. The idea was designed to keep veterans in the game without sacrificing a list spot that a youngster may have taken, with the veteran’s full payments still counted in the salary cap."

www.afl.com.au

Roos target pick one, Dee to go on, big Dog to stay

Check out all the latest trade news from around the League
www.afl.com.au www.afl.com.au
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There's a link in the post above
 

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craig crowing said:
Thank you Bicks and JeffCrowe for your feedback .
The more I read and get more and more information re this draft in our selection bracket it seems more likely that we won't use 14 or 20 with players available but either move up or more likely to get a deal by getting a future pick and a mid to late 30 s type pick.
Surely a club like West Coast would be trying to get a extra quality player in this draft , as I probably don't understand not using there no 1 pick to get a couple of extra 1st round type picks to start to strengthen their club.
We need next year picks of all types to either trade for Petty or a top draft pick before doing our numbers to match a Welsh bid.
Click to expand...

I think we will use two at least and use the third to trade into next year. But I wont be surprised if they use them all tbh
 
adelaidecrows said:
surely the only currency we'd use is a rookie pick. Cant ever see us using a ND pick unless its for a player capable of playing within two seasons.
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We don’t have any rookie picks though or late list spots available though. So if we are grabbing a ruck this year it has to be with our last one which will be pushed back closer to 30. That’s not a massive cost and if Goad is available, to have a young South Aussie who has the potential to be a special talent, we’d be mad not to given we can develop him without the risk of losing him back home interstate.

We’ve got 42 on the list right? We’ve got numerous players who can play multiple roles and yet we’ve got only 2 rucks. That goes against what all other clubs have. Are we some special club that apparently knows more than the others? Given our success I guess I can understand why’d posters would think we are.
 
Drugs Are Bad Mackay? said:
Part of me is happy that we aren't spending any currency on a ruckman. Just making do with the el cheapo one we got and spending elsewhere (though what was ROB's contract $$$?)
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We’ve got so much cap space we could pull Oliver’s contract massive contract out of our arse without blinking. Hell even with his problems we were ok risking it. I’d spend the money on a decent ruck or we could get one cheap if we just drafted and tried developing one.

As for ROB yep, he’s not cheap. Just not very good. That’s damming given our list profile that despite playing the majority of both seasons and being a leader he can’t make the top 10.
 
adelaidecrows said:
I think we will use two at least and use the third to trade into next year. But I wont be surprised if they use them all tbh
Click to expand...
We have a habit of moving picks into the future...
 

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adelaidecrows said:
I think we will use two at least and use the third to trade into next year. But I wont be surprised if they use them all tbh
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We have just freed up a third list spot, so I think we can be pretty sure we will use 3 picks. Personally I hope we are open to using next years 1st to move further up this year with those 3 picks, especially if it gets us Caddy or O’Sullivan. However we can still do really well with the positions we have. Windsor and Charlie Edwards could both be great midfielders and Lance Collard is a freak who would allow Rachelle and Pedlar to go into the midfield more.
 
Scorpus said:
We've had developing rucks on the list for a while.

Shaun McKernan into Jack Osborn into Reilly O'Brien into Paul Hunter into Billy Frampton

Our backup ruck has been Brad Moran into Angus Graham into Luke Lowden into Reilly O'Brien into Kieran Strachan

The strike rate we've had is so bad it's almost not worth having that developing ruck clogging up a list spot.

In the past two decades including several other picks like Meesen and Sellar, we've come away having drafted and developed just three decent rucks: Ivan Maric, Reilly O'Brien and (barely) Jon Griffin
Click to expand...
Plus the name that shall never be mentioned on these pages (pick 32 2006) was a pretty handy ruck; and Ben Hudson (pick 58 2003 - I think we can squeeze him into the 'past two decades' qualifier) gave us a few good years ('04, '05 and '07 with an ACL reconstruction in the middle) before going to the dogs.

Hudson pick 58 '03
Maric pick 40 '04
Griffin pick 21 '05 RD
XXX pick 32 '06
ROB pick 9 '14

So drafted one good ruck in past decade. The strike rate from drafted rucks in consecutive years from 03-06 was pretty good.

Jacobs gave us pretty good ruck service over the 8 seasons from '11 to '18 after being traded from Carlton.
 
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Scorpus said:
We've had developing rucks on the list for a while.

Shaun McKernan into Jack Osborn into Reilly O'Brien into Paul Hunter into Billy Frampton

Our backup ruck has been Brad Moran into Angus Graham into Luke Lowden into Reilly O'Brien into Kieran Strachan

The strike rate we've had is so bad it's almost not worth having that developing ruck clogging up a list spot.

In the past two decades including several other picks like Meesen and Sellar, we've come away having drafted and developed just three decent rucks: Ivan Maric, Reilly O'Brien and (barely) Jon Griffin
Click to expand...
You’ve listed a lot of spuds there and a number weren’t developing rucks, they were average to poor back up rucks.

McKernan wasn’t a ruck, he was a forward/ruck.

Sellar was another forward/ruck.

How many draft picks have we actually used on rucks in our history? Very few. No wonder we haven’t developed many.

And we talk about using one list spot on a young developing ruck as if it’s some commodity we can’t spare. We have drafted numerous players to fill similar roles and kept them on the list for years, Nick Davis for example. We drafted short arse mids, like McHenry, don’t play them as mids, develop them only to realise they are no good but we waste years on them and yet we can’t fine ONE draft pick in years on a young ruck? Other clubs can but not us, the all conquering Crows. I just dont get the objection.
 
George Kramer said:
You’ve listed a lot of spuds there and a number weren’t developing rucks, they were average to poor back up rucks.

McKernan wasn’t a ruck, he was a forward/ruck.

Sellar was another forward/ruck.

How many draft picks have we actually used on rucks in our history? Very few. No wonder we haven’t developed many.

And we talk about using one list spot on a young developing ruck as if it’s some commodity we can’t spare. We have drafted numerous players to fill similar roles and kept them on the list for years, Nick Davis for example. We drafted short arse mids, like McHenry, don’t play them as mids, develop them only to realise they are no good but we waste years on them and yet we can’t fine ONE draft pick in years on a young ruck? Other clubs can but not us, the all conquering Crows. I just dont get the objection.
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We aren't a ruck development club. There's no point drafting a player we have no ability to develop, especially with a higher pick. Even the more mature backups or traded-in developing backups showed zero improvement at the club.

There's no realistic pathway for development right now either. They're not going to play AFL, even as a forward/ruck, and in the SANFL we have Strachan playing first ruck so at best, any fresh ruck we draft is going to be a second ruck or ruck/forward at reserves level for years. We could delist Strachan to make room for a developing ruck that can first-ruck for us at SANFL level, but that leaves us exposed at AFL level.

We'd be much better off trading in a ruck from another club after 4-6 years in the system who is on the verge of breaking out, or who is stuck behind an established player, who we can then put straight into the AFL side.

The bigger issue IMO is the club actually seems to rate Reilly O'Brien as a ruck
 
Scorpus said:
We aren't a ruck development club. There's no point drafting a player we have no ability to develop, especially with a higher pick. Even the more mature backups or traded-in developing backups showed zero improvement at the club.

There's no realistic pathway for development right now either. They're not going to play AFL, even as a forward/ruck, and in the SANFL we have Strachan playing first ruck so at best, any fresh ruck we draft is going to be a second ruck or ruck/forward at reserves level for years. We could delist Strachan to make room for a developing ruck that can first-ruck for us at SANFL level, but that leaves us exposed at AFL level.

We'd be much better off trading in a ruck from another club after 4-6 years in the system who is on the verge of breaking out, or who is stuck behind an established player, who we can then put straight into the AFL side.
Click to expand...
We developed ROB didn’t we? Of course we can develop a ruck in the SANFL if we want to. No rule that says Strachan has to play majority first ruck and a developing ruck doesn’t need maximum game time to begin with in the ruck. Goad looks like he’d be a handy resting forward anyway.

If we grab back up average rucks and they don’t develop does that mean we can’t develop them, they weren’t given an opportunity or they were just no good to begin with?

How many mids have we developed in the last 10 years?

And yep let’s trade for a ready made quality ruck, that’s so easy to do, especially for us.

One spot we are talking, one spot.
 
Scorpus said:
We aren't a ruck development club. There's no point drafting a player we have no ability to develop, especially with a higher pick. Even the more mature backups or traded-in developing backups showed zero improvement at the club.

There's no realistic pathway for development right now either. They're not going to play AFL, even as a forward/ruck, and in the SANFL we have Strachan playing first ruck so at best, any fresh ruck we draft is going to be a second ruck or ruck/forward at reserves level for years. We could delist Strachan to make room for a developing ruck that can first-ruck for us at SANFL level, but that leaves us exposed at AFL level.

We'd be much better off trading in a ruck from another club after 4-6 years in the system who is on the verge of breaking out, or who is stuck behind an established player, who we can then put straight into the AFL side.

The bigger issue IMO is the club actually seems to rate Reilly O'Brien as a ruck
Click to expand...
Most of the backups we signed weren't signed to be developed or improve as players. They were signed to be cheap guys who could physically handle AFL football if our #1 guy got injured, but wouldn't ever push their way into the side. You don't knowingly sign guys like Angus Graham or Luke Lowden who had been on lists for years and realistically think they're gonna improve as players.
 
1st round:
Tom Gilligan
John Meesen

2nd round:
Rhett Biglands
Kurt Tippett

3rd round:
Lucas Herbert
Ivan Maric

4th round:
Ben Hudson

Rookie draft:
Ben Marsh
Matthew Golding
Jonathan Griffin
Reilly O'Brien
Paul Hunter
Kieran Strachan

Trade:
Aaron Keating
Matthew Clarke
Sam Jacobs
Luke Lowden
Angus Graham

Original/zone:
Romano Negri
Mark Mickan
Shaun Rehn
David Pittman
Randall Bone


Missing?
 

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MRB37 said:
Most of the backups we signed weren't signed to be developed or improve as players. They were signed to be cheap guys who could physically handle AFL football if our #1 guy got injured, but wouldn't ever push their way into the side. You don't knowingly sign guys like Angus Graham or Luke Lowden who had been on lists for years and realistically think they're gonna improve as players.
Click to expand...

The issue is this applies to all the rucks we've drafted/traded across the years stretching back to Ivan Maric and Jon Griffin in 2004!

Since then we had success bringing in a ruck that was breaking out at another club (Jacobs) and drafting and developing one other player (O'Brien). That's it.

I know we probably weren't expecting much from Graham or Lowden but they didn't improve. Neither did any of the other players, young or older, drafted or traded. Even guys like Hunter and Strachan, we brought them in at 22/23 with (theoretically) room to improve at that age as a ruck - neither improved.

We've tried plenty of ruck/forwards as well and couldn't get them to be good at either.

The best example we have of developing a ruck at our club has been O'Brien and he's capped out (now 28 years old) as a very average player
 
Scorpus said:
The issue is this applies to all the rucks we've drafted/traded across the years stretching back to Ivan Maric and Jon Griffin in 2004!

Since then we had success bringing in a ruck that was breaking out at another club (Jacobs) and drafting and developing one other player (O'Brien). That's it.

I know we probably weren't expecting much from Graham or Lowden but they didn't improve. Neither did any of the other players, young or older, drafted or traded. Even guys like Hunter and Strachan, we brought them in at 22/23 with (theoretically) room to improve at that age as a ruck - neither improved.

We've tried plenty of ruck/forwards as well and couldn't get them to be good at either.

The best example we have of developing a ruck at our club has been O'Brien and he's capped out (now 28 years old) as a very average player
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But they were duds! And Strachan and I believe even Hunter dominated at SANFL so you can’t say they didn’t improve.

We’ve drafted **** all players who were a realistic chance of being any good.

Just look at the sorry list dogs105 produced, that’s an indictment on us and look at the numbers compared to how many players we’ve turned over in that time.
 
George Kramer said:
But they were duds! And Strachan and I believe even Hunter dominated at SANFL so you can’t say they didn’t improve.

We’ve drafted * all players who were a realistic chance of being any good.

Just look at the sorry list dogs105 produced, that’s an indictment on us and look at the numbers compared to how many players we’ve turned over in that time.
Click to expand...

Are they duds because they were never a chance of success, or duds because we couldn't develop them?
 
Scorpus said:
In the past two decades including several other picks like Meesen and Sellar, we've come away having drafted and developed just three decent rucks: Ivan Maric, Reilly O'Brien and (barely) Jon Griffin
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So about 16 years roughly?

Matthew Clarke​


Adelaide Football Club​

16 years 1 month

  • AFLW Coach​

    2019 - Present 4 years
    Adelaide, South Australia, Australia

  • Strategy Coordinator​

    Jan 2016 - Present 7 years 11 months

  • Assistant Football Coach​

    Nov 2007 - Present 16 years 1 month
 
Hodgy said:
midfielders dont take 5 years to develop. You know if they are no good within 2 years.
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It's not like rucks have a switch that is flicked after 5 years and you can suddenly then tell if they are going to be any good. I am sure after 3 years you would have an idea if they are tracking in the right direction. If not you would cut them at that point.
 

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Makes you wonder if the AFL decided to expand the playing lists whether clubs would be more inclined to take on a younger ruckman and develop them?

On the other hand, the league is littered with ruckman who've left the club that drafted them only to go and have decent careers elsewhere. Often purely for opportunity.

And also makes you question if clubs (coaches) just don't value them that much.
 
dogs105 said:
1st round:
Tom Gilligan
John Meesen

2nd round:
Rhett Biglands
Kurt Tippett

3rd round:
Lucas Herbert
Ivan Maric

4th round:
Ben Hudson

Rookie draft:
Ben Marsh
Matthew Golding
Jonathan Griffin
Reilly O'Brien
Paul Hunter
Kieran Strachan

Trade:
Aaron Keating
Matthew Clarke
Sam Jacobs
Luke Lowden
Angus Graham

Original/zone:
Romano Negri
Mark Mickan
Shaun Rehn
David Pittman
Randall Bone


Missing?
Click to expand...
Trent Ormond-Allen :p
 
PeterSalt said:
Makes you wonder if the AFL decided to expand the playing lists whether clubs would be more inclined to take on a younger ruckman and develop them?

On the other hand, the league is littered with ruckman who've left the club that drafted them only to go and have decent careers elsewhere. Often purely for opportunity.

And also makes you question if clubs (coaches) just don't value them that much.
Click to expand...
I think the issue is that players need genuine game time in the Ruck to develop whether that's in the 1s or 2s.

We found when he had Hunter and Strachan in the 2s, unless they can play somewhere else, you're too top heavy. Especially with the likes of Himmelberg up forward too.

I would love a young ruck to develop, but we really need a way to get games into them once we have one.
 

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List Mgmt. 2023 List Management and Trading (Part 2)

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