List Mgmt. 2024 List Management discussion

[Elixuh]

Article in the Herald Sun - Brisbane related parts.

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/moneyball-hugh-mccluggage-in-demand-northern-states-clubs-push-back-on-midseason-trade/news-story/be7011651c0ce06299e2114a77ada4fa?amp

Moneyball: Hugh McCluggage in demand, northern states clubs push back on mid-season trade​

The race to secure 2024’s biggest free agent is heating up, with four clubs in Victoria leading the charge. Plus, the AFL’s mid-season trade plans could be scrapped if some clubs get their way.

At least four Victorian clubs are lining up for Brisbane midfielder Hugh McCluggage as the Lions prepare to match any free agency bid which comes for the gun midfielder.

Collingwood, St Kilda, Essendon and Geelong are all circling the South Warrnambool product who will attract offers in the vicinity of $1.3 million to return home to Victoria.

The Saints want to be aggressive to attract top-line talent through free agency, while Collingwood also has salary cap room after repositioning their total player payments bill in recent years.

Geelong wants to add to its midfield stocks and Essendon coach Brad Scott has been clear he wants the Bombers to continue to scour the free agency pool.

But the Lions could scupper rivals’ efforts by matching a free agency bid which forces clubs to offer up picks in a trade to satisfy Brisbane.

Chris Fagan’s men would want multiple first-round picks in exchange for McCluggage or they would block the move.

It could mean McCluggage signs for two more years and then reconsider his future as an unrestricted free agent after 10 years service.

MID-SEASON TRADE PLANS TAKE HIT

Northern states clubs have pushed back on the AFL’s plans to introduce a mid-season trade period for next year.

The league has been in talks with clubs about bringing in a window to trade players in the middle rounds of next season to help increase player movement.

But this masthead can reveal Brisbane and GWS Giants are among the clubs who have made it clear to league headquarters they strongly oppose the concept.

There are beliefs among the northern-states clubs a mid-season trade period would heavily favour Victorian clubs where the bulk of the AFL player pool stems.

The Lions have told AFL officials it would be much harder to attract mature-age players to Queensland in particular if they had to take their children out of school in the middle of the year.

The northern states clubs have predicted the bulk of the movement would flow into Victorian rivals rather than the other way around.

The Giants have also told the AFL the end-of-season two-week trade period in combination with the mid-season draft and supplemental selection period already meets clubs’ needs.

Players could also be stranded mid-season if their moves fall over, leaving them out in the cold with teammates or fans in the middle of the season.

Currently, clubs begin to meet potential recruiting targets in the mid-season bye period, but those talks may have to take place in the early rounds of the season if the mid-season trade period was introduced, ramping up demands on clubs.

The AFL is keen to introduce a mid-season trade period to allow clubs to top-up on specific player needs in the event of a string of injuries.

The AFL Players Association approved the plan as part of last year’s Collective Bargaining Agreement.

But clubs remain in the dark about the potential rules and regulations of a mid-season trade period, including any potential salary cap implications and restrictions around picks or ages of players.

There are also fears clubs at the bottom of the ladder could be targeted, making lesser sides weaker in the second half of the season.

The league has presented to clubs as part of the competitive balance review, which includes proposed changes to the end-of-season draft and trade periods.

The draft points system is set for an overhaul, but clubs are eager for any changes to be pushed back until next year.

Clubs have already planned around father-son and academy targets for this year and think changes this year could have a major impact on plans which have been in-train for 18 months.

Draft pick purchasing where clubs such as North Melbourne could absorb rivals’ salary cap pressure in return for early draft picks is also in the works.

LIONS YOUNG GUN SET TO BAULK AT MOVE

Brisbane free agent Jarrod Berry will stay at the Lions despite rival interest in the wingman and inside midfielder.

Amid speculation about whether he might want more time as a pure midfielder the Lions have offered him a new multi-year deal.

It is understood Berry has no intention of exploring rival offers and could sign that deal in coming weeks.

The competition for midfield spots will only get fiercer as Will Ashcroft returns from an ACL tear and the club drafts father-son Levi and academy prospect Sam Marshall.

But he is invested in the chase for a premiership and happy in Queensland.

Brisbane has squirrelled away cap space over recent years so has money to lock away its out-of-contract players.

The mid season trade period is one of the worst idea thought up by the AFL in recent memory.

My fear is the new AFL executive are trying to get runs on the board and will push through all of these dogshit changes.

If winning a flag isn’t already hard enough for non vfl sides wait until the mid season trade period comes in and Vic clubs can patch up injury holes (for instance) in their list midstream. Good luck to us trying to do the same.

 

[Dalions]

And to add to any mid season inequities in favour of VIC teams, they are looking at making it harder for Northern States to get access to their home grown talent as a double whammy.

 

[McIvor]

Pleased the club is on the front foot about the mid-season trade period. Absolutely comical that it has been allowed to get even this far.

Absolutely, I was really pleased to read / hear that on the Mid Week Tackle last night. Good to see the northern clubs to a degree band together. Said it earlier in the year too but once Dimma at the Suns starts to see some of the issues our clubs face, I think he’ll be a good voice particularly down in the bias VIC market to push our causes.

 

[McIvor]

The mid season trade period is one of the worst idea thought up by the AFL in recent memory.

My fear is the new AFL executive are trying to get runs on the board and will push through all of these dogshit changes.

If winning a flag isn’t already hard enough for non vfl sides wait until the mid season trade period comes in and Vic clubs can patch up injury holes (for instance) in their list midstream. Good luck to us trying to do the same.

Yet these same VIC clubs cry poor over the northern academies which was really all on the back of the Suns having like one good draft, so you just know the AFL in all its wisdom will find a way to water those down too

 

[briztoon]

And to add to any mid season inequities in favour of VIC teams, they are looking at making it harder for Northern States to get access to their home grown talent as a double whammy.

I actually don’t have a problem with that. If you are a top 8 team, getting access to a top 5 prospect, it’s an unfair double whammy for bottom teams.

They don’t have access to a top rated kid, plus it sees a good team getting better and potentially extending their ability to remain at the top.

And if your are a good team with a production line of good players, and able to pick up kids far above your draft position across multiple rounds, that’s genuinely against competition balance.


Nor should we be complaining about access to “our kids”, while then complaining about Vic teams wanting to bring “their kids” home.

 

[Elixuh]

I actually don’t have a problem with that. If you are a top 8 team, getting access to a top 5 prospect, it’s an unfair double whammy for bottom teams.

They don’t have access to a top rated kid, plus it sees a good team getting better and potentially extending their ability to remain at the top.

And if your are a good team with a production line of good players, and able to pick up kids far above your draft position across multiple rounds, that’s genuinely against competition balance.


Nor should we be complaining about access to “our kids”, while then complaining about Vic teams wanting to bring “their kids” home.

BT, my brother. There is no competition balance. We consistently have to strike kids off our draft list because there is an unwillingness to move from the city that houses half the teams in the comp. We have to use different metrics to other clubs because of the go home factor.

I can see an argument to SLIGHTLY water down the academy rules. If they were fair dinkum about growing talent in other regions like nsw and qld they’d leave it as is. Without us funding and running the academies many of these prospects don’t exist in the AFL system. It is unreasonably to expect us to fund and run academies for no benefit and even worse to the benefit of our competitors.

 

[briztoon]

BT, my brother. There is no competition balance. We consistently have to strike kids off our draft list because there is an unwillingness to move from the city that houses half the teams in the comp. We have to use different metrics to other clubs because of the go home factor.

I don’t disagree with this.

I can see an argument to SLIGHTLY water down the academy rules. If they were fair dinkum about growing talent in other regions like nsw and qld they’d leave it as is. Without us funding and running the academies many of these prospects don’t exist in the AFL system.

I’ll argue this is actually a fallacy.

The vast majority of successful academy graduates come from families that moved from Victoria/SA/WA, or come from local QAFL hardcore families, many of whom are very active with their QAFL club.

I researched this for both the Suns and Lions academy back around 2018.

 

[briztoon]

Edit: Not sure why, but the forum wasn’t allowing me to post my whole reply.


The academy does present as a pathway, and having direct access to kids does keep some kids in the system, but the majority of kids come from families like Keays, Bowes, Fletcher, where their dads were the main factor for them succeeding, and not the academy.

 

[briztoon]

It is unreasonably to expect us to fund and run academies for no benefit and even worse to the benefit of our competitors.

Finishing top 4 and top 8 will have a bigger impact on our access to top academy kids, if we get our academy producing on a similar level to a Coates Talent League club.

 

[M Malice]

Looking forward to academy product Cooper Hodge coming to the Lions otherwise he'd be on the Broncos books already.

 

[Elixuh]

I don’t disagree with this.


I’ll argue this is actually a fallacy.

The vast majority of successful academy graduates come from families that moved from Victoria/SA/WA, or come from local QAFL hardcore families, many of whom are very active with their QAFL club.

I researched this for both the Suns and Lions academy back around 2018.

BT can you post your entire analysis of every graduate since 2013, I need to validate your analysis.

 

[Dalions]

I actually don’t have a problem with that. If you are a top 8 team, getting access to a top 5 prospect, it’s an unfair double whammy for bottom teams.

They don’t have access to a top rated kid, plus it sees a good team getting better and potentially extending their ability to remain at the top.

And if your are a good team with a production line of good players, and able to pick up kids far above your draft position across multiple rounds, that’s genuinely against competition balance.


Nor should we be complaining about access to “our kids”, while then complaining about Vic teams wanting to bring “their kids” home.

Who let you in

 

[Dalions]

I actually don’t have a problem with that. If you are a top 8 team, getting access to a top 5 prospect, it’s an unfair double whammy for bottom teams.

They don’t have access to a top rated kid, plus it sees a good team getting better and potentially extending their ability to remain at the top.

And if your are a good team with a production line of good players, and able to pick up kids far above your draft position across multiple rounds, that’s genuinely against competition balance.


Nor should we be complaining about access to “our kids”, while then complaining about Vic teams wanting to bring “their kids” home.

I would like to see the evidence of a Northern Club that is flat out unbeatable due to their Academy talent.
It’s an over reaction from the big VIC clubs because of GC draft last year.
And any rise of the Suns may, just guessing, be partially because of the countless first round talent that they already have on their list via other AFL handouts and from being so s**t for so long.

Also no different the GWS scaring the s**t out of the competition many years ago due to their academy borders and the VIC Clubs and media crying about it until a change was made.

 

[Maboo]

Looking forward to academy product Cooper Hodge coming to the Lions otherwise he'd be on the Broncos books already.

Was listening to Hodgey on the radio a while ago where he was constantly pushed on wether Cooper would nominate the Hawks as a father son, but all he would keep saying was that he would make up his own mind when the time comes, which is the standard response but there was a real frustration from the other members of the panel.

 

[briztoon]

BT can you post your entire analysis of every graduate since 2013, I need to validate your analysis.

If only I had kept it.

I meant those who had made it to the AFL.

 

[mpal6]

Was listening to Hodgey on the radio a while ago where he was constantly pushed on wether Cooper would nominate the Hawks as a father son, but all he would keep saying was that he would make up his own mind when the time comes, which is the standard response but there was a real frustration from the other members of the panel.

The only reason he's not saying Hawks would be..... let me guess.... oh no, I don't want Hawks fans chasing me down haha

 

[Elixuh]

If only I had kept it.

I meant those who had made it to the AFL.

Looks like you have some work to do on your days off this week.

 

[briztoon]

Looks like you have some work to do on your days off this week.

Weekend, family time.

The only two players I couldn’t find out about family of origin and ties to VFL, were Ballenden and Payne.

Keays family had ties back with Mathieson’s family in Geelong. Hipwood and Andrews were from Vic. Kiddy was from the NT, but a footballing family.

Suns academy was the same, but they had a few more players from WA. Even Jed Walter is from a WA football family.

We have a few kids currently coming through with strong ties to QAFL families.

I’m not part of any QAFL club, have any connections or know anyone, other than what people post here, but it wasn’t that hard searching online to find where players families originated from and their ties to footy.

But I really couldn’t be arsed doing it all over again.

But I very much doubt we’re winning a tug of war against the NRL up here. If the kids aren’t indoctrinated into AFL by their parents, we’re probably not getting too many wins in the battle of the codes.

 

[M Malice]

I would like to see the evidence of a Northern Club that is flat out unbeatable due to their Academy talent.
It’s an over reaction from the big VIC clubs because of GC draft last year.
And any rise of the Suns may, just guessing, be partially because of the countless first round talent that they already have on their list via other AFL handouts and from being so s**t for so long.

Also no different the GWS scaring the s**t out of the competition many years ago due to their academy borders and the VIC Clubs and media crying about it until a change was made.

It was Garry Lyon or Kane Cornes (I've only watched FC & OtC this week) who were bemoaning the Northern Academies and the incoming domination, saying Jake Rogers was the next Daniel Kerr and Jed Walter was a cross between Plugga and Dunstall, get used to multiple Grand Finals featuring the Giants and Suns....he went on to say the Suns list is dead set scary good.

 

[SizeMatters]

What a weird comment from Berry essentially saying he will follow Hugh. wtf. Has he not or does not want to make strong connections outside of Hugh? Though his family moved here iirc. So the pull of the love of a man is stronger than that of his family.

 

[dlanod]

Weekend, family time.

The only two players I couldn’t find out about family of origin and ties to VFL, were Ballenden and Payne.

Keays family had ties back with Mathieson’s family in Geelong. Hipwood and Andrews were from Vic. Kiddy was from the NT, but a footballing family.

Suns academy was the same, but they had a few more players from WA. Even Jed Walter is from a WA football family.

We have a few kids currently coming through with strong ties to QAFL families.

I’m not part of any QAFL club, have any connections or know anyone, other than what people post here, but it wasn’t that hard searching online to find where players families originated from and their ties to footy.

But I really couldn’t be arsed doing it all over again.

But I very much doubt we’re winning a tug of war against the NRL up here. If the kids aren’t indoctrinated into AFL by their parents, we’re probably not getting too many wins in the battle of the codes.

I don't think this is as big a link as you claim though.

I'd done stats on the overall numbers coming out, which have undoubtedly increased over the years of the academy.

There's always been families in Queensland with Victorian links. From memory Voss's family moved up from Victoria. Aker too. Riewoldt came from Tassie. The elite always made it, but the next level weren't anywhere to be seen. Now we're seeing quantity more in line with what we should be producing - regardless of where they moved from. Focusing on those links is ignoring the actual shift we've seen.

 

[briztoon]

It was Garry Lyon or Kane Cornes (I've only watched FC & OtC this week) who were bemoaning the Northern Academies and the incoming domination, saying Jake Rogers was the next Daniel Kerr and Jed Walter was a cross between Plugga and Dunstall, get used to multiple Grand Finals featuring the Giants and Suns....he went on to say the Suns list is dead set scary good.

Brown was on SEN talking up the Suns academy, with Lyons. Was really talking up how much talent they have coming through.

Lyons then made the Leap that all 4 academies must be on the verge of global domination.

 

[mpal6]

Brown was on SEN talking up the Suns academy, with Lyons. Was really talking up how much talent they have coming through.

Lyons then made the Leap that all 4 academies must be on the verge of global domination.

 

[Elixuh]

It was Garry Lyon or Kane Cornes (I've only watched FC & OtC this week) who were bemoaning the Northern Academies and the incoming domination, saying Jake Rogers was the next Daniel Kerr and Jed Walter was a cross between Plugga and Dunstall, get used to multiple Grand Finals featuring the Giants and Suns....he went on to say the Suns list is dead set scary good.

Imagine being afraid of a team that has never made finals.

GWS and GC have been one step away from a 10yr dynasty for 10 years.

 

[mighty_lions]

What a weird comment from Berry essentially saying he will follow Hugh. wtf. Has he not or does not want to make strong connections outside of Hugh? Though his family moved here iirc. So the pull of the love of a man is stronger than that of his family.

what a strange take, that's not what he meant at all