AB De Villiers

[PhatBoy]

The more I think about it the more I believe this guy deserves to be in the Lara/Tendulkar/Ponting/Kallis/Smith/Sangakarra discussion.

And yes I’m…. Some… beers deep and watching YouTube.

But hear me out.

Firstly.
He averages over 50. First box ticked.
Secondly his only ‘holes’ in his record are…. Bangladesh and Zimbabwe. He averages 42.25 at bare minimum everywhere else. That was in Sri Lanka.

This is a player who has proven unequivocally that he can handle every condition that you can throw at him with no exception: it’s not like he can handle ‘the low slow spin of the UAE and SL but not the vicious biting spin of India.’ He averages 45 in India.

He hasn’t just proven he can handle the bounce of Australia and SA but not the slower sideways seamers of NZ and England: he averages 47 and 44 in SA and Australia, and 54 and 43 in England and NZ.

And even in the West Indies where a surprising amount of recent batsmen have struggled and it’s been visiting bowlers who have won matches rather than batsmen because the pitches just aren’t that good, he averaged 87. They are two paced and tough to bat on.

Moreover I believe that this was a guy who more so than perhaps any of the batsmen mentioned aside from MAYBE Kallis who as Gethelred and I have discussed a few times, shelved how he COULD bat, and batted how he had to bat.

We all know he exploded but what about the times he just shut up shop and batted like a barn door when his team needed him to?
He could block like Allan Border if the situation demanded it. If his team needed to set a score he could bat like Adam Gilchrist, and if they needed to chase he could calculate and just get it done. Or if they were in trouble he was good enough to get them out of it.

Oh, and he kept wickets in just under a quarter of his tests as well.

And a Quick Look at said YouTube highlights shows a batsman who probably has command of more shots than anyone to have played in the last 30 years.

Surely he deserves to be in that same conversation?

 

[King_Steele]

Absolutely he should. All class

 

[revo333]

The more I think about it the more I believe this guy deserves to be in the Lara/Tendulkar/Ponting/Kallis/Smith/Sangakarra discussion.

I would have him over Kallis, Smith and Sangakarra.

Better to watch then all 3 , better impact on the situation of the game and played with risk to make mountains of runs.

That Innings against the Windies in the 2015 world cup might be the best selection of stroke play I've ever seen.

 

[Coops93]

He is the most talented batter on the list, but on overall output he's below them.

I think ABDV is a case of talent and ability vs overall output. His output was still elite, but it's clearly below the others listed. 22 centuries and 46 fifties is not a good conversion rate, those listed are all closer to 50-50, (most probably around 40/60) while he's about 30/70.

It's that old debate of ability vs output. ABDVs ability and watchability was clearly better than Kallis, but Kallis was the more dependable test batter with an overall better record - as is the case with everyone else listed.


Now, if you include white ball to the debate, then that's a different conversation. He's clearly the most rounded batter of the group across formats. But in terms of solely test batting, he's the tier below them.

 

[PhatBoy]

He is the most talented batter on the list, but on overall output he's below them.

I think ABDV is a case of talent and ability vs overall output. His output was still elite, but it's clearly below the others listed. 22 centuries and 46 fifties is not a good conversion rate, those listed are all closer to 50-50, (most probably around 40/60) while he's about 30/70.

It's that old debate of ability vs output. ABDVs ability and watchability was clearly better than Kallis, but Kallis was the more dependable test batter with an overall better record - as is the case with everyone else listed.


Now, if you include white ball to the debate, then that's a different conversation. He's clearly the most rounded batter of the group across formats. But in terms of solely test batting, he's the tier below them.

No I agree with the output aspect but one of the things I’m saying is that his output was impacted by the adaptability he showed and I believe that had he played in a more one dimensional manner that output probably would have been closer to the others.

All of those players have had their method and while they were adaptable enough in their own way they generally stuck to the method that best served their ability and if it worked for the team, great, and if it didn’t, it didn’t. Certainly there are exceptions where those players would produce the odd innings that was a bit out of character but by and large they kept to their tried and tested means of approaching an innings.

De Villiers played every which way imaginable and it has probably cost him a lot of runs, centuries, and a handful of points on his average.

I do appreciate what you’re saying and it is a very valid point I just think that one of the core reasons for that disparity and for the gap in his overall output compared to those guys is because of his willingness to bat however the team required him to bat.

He also was shoehorned into opening for 20-odd tests while they were looking for someone to partner Smith, I think it was before McKenzie or possibly Alviro Peterson had a reasonable stint there.

 

[Coops93]

No I agree with the output aspect but one of the things I’m saying is that his output was impacted by the adaptability he showed and I believe that had he played in a more one dimensional manner that output probably would have been closer to the others.

All of those players have had their method and while they were adaptable enough in their own way they generally stuck to the method that best served their ability and if it worked for the team, great, and if it didn’t, it didn’t. Certainly there are exceptions where those players would produce the odd innings that was a bit out of character but by and large they kept to their tried and tested means of approaching an innings.

De Villiers played every which way imaginable and it has probably cost him a lot of runs, centuries, and a handful of points on his average.

I do appreciate what you’re saying and it is a very valid point I just think that one of the core reasons for that disparity and for the gap in his overall output compared to those guys is because of his willingness to bat however the team required him to bat.

He also was shoehorned into opening for 20-odd tests while they were looking for someone to partner Smith, I think it was before McKenzie or possibly Alviro Peterson had a reasonable stint there.

I'm not so sure he did constantly bat and adapt to team demands in test cricket. He did have the stint opening, as you say, and a couple of dig in innings going for a draw, but aside from that I don't think they were asking a whole of versatility from him. He mostly able to bat as he liked at no.5 in tests and not forced into any other style.

Like I said, bring in the white ball formats and absolutely he was a unit for any situation, but in the test arena he was more or less consistent with how he played and was allowed to play his natural way.

 

[Rabish Binney]

Very handy Golfer, played off a 1 handicap when he was 15 years of age.

In his autobiography, he said that he doesn't have much time to play gold these days, so his handicap has blown out to 9

What I would do for a 9 handicap.....

 

[PhatBoy]

I'm not so sure he did constantly bat and adapt to team demands in test cricket. He did have the stint opening, as you say, and a couple of dig in innings going for a draw, but aside from that I don't think they were asking a whole of versatility from him. He mostly able to bat as he liked at no.5 in tests and not forced into any other style.

Like I said, bring in the white ball formats and absolutely he was a unit for any situation, but in the test arena he was more or less consistent with how he played and was allowed to play his natural way.

Not that this HURT his record it actually enhanced it but an example would be the second of the Perth tests they won where he just tore Australia to shreds. He could have played normally and they PROBABLY would have won the game anyway but it was a pitch that would need some time to bowl Australia out: that 169 off 180 was as in control as anyone I’ve seen bat in Australia.


5-107 against WI at the queens park oval in 2010 with all the big guns back in the hut and he makes 60-odd off 150 and shepherds the lower order with Ashwell Prince up to 300 and they win the game. Same thing happened next test, 5-140 and he makes 70 off 190 and boosts them up to 340 to make sure they’ve got a foot in the door: they won both games, and not in the sort of walkover manner we are used to seeing from teams often against the WI at the moment.
Setting a target against NZ he throws his wicket away for 68 off 48 and they declared when he was dismissed. He could have comfortably earned a not out hundred by easing up.

 

[eth-dog]

Star. But I have him below the likes of Sanga, Punter, etc.

Still, an absolute freak.

 

[Coops93]

Not that this HURT his record it actually enhanced it but an example would be the second of the Perth tests they won where he just tore Australia to shreds. He could have played normally and they PROBABLY would have won the game anyway but it was a pitch that would need some time to bowl Australia out: that 169 off 180 was as in control as anyone I’ve seen bat in Australia.


5-107 against WI at the queens park oval in 2010 with all the big guns back in the hut and he makes 60-odd off 150 and shepherds the lower order with Ashwell Prince up to 300 and they win the game. Same thing happened next test, 5-140 and he makes 70 off 190 and boosts them up to 340 to make sure they’ve got a foot in the door: they won both games, and not in the sort of walkover manner we are used to seeing from teams often against the WI at the moment.
Setting a target against NZ he throws his wicket away for 68 off 48 and they declared when he was dismissed. He could have comfortably earned a not out hundred by easing up.

None of those innings are particularly abnormal for test batters at the levels we're talking, though. Everyone else you listed there could do the same thing, aside from perhaps a run a ball 170. I'd back Lara, Punter and perhaps Sachin to be able to do it, though not so much Smith, Kumar or Kallis. Kumar and Kallis probably could do it but I'm not as convinced as I would be with Lara & Ponting. Smith I think is much, much more a rhythm batter and doesn't really go up gears so much.

As an aside, batting with the tail is something I'd be critical of Smith with - I've never felt he was particularly good at batting with non-batsmen.

 

[yabsy]

I think it's also worth noting de Villiers batted in a variety of positions throughout his test career...Started as an opener, then moved around from no.4 - 6...Interestingly, his average was higher when being the designated wicketkeeper as well - 24 matches, 2067 runs @ 57.41

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[melanChronic]

De Villiers I put in a different cohort to most of the names you mention. Lara, Tendulkar, Dravid, Ponting and Kallis were from a different time who all debuted in the 90s (or earlier for Sachin), and he doesn't really belong to the most recent era of Smith, Williamson, Kohli and Root either.

His contemporaries I think of as Sangakkara, Hussey, Clarke, Younis Khan, Pietersen and Amla. And I'd say he's clearly second to Kumar in that list.

 

[dogs105]

Wonderful player.

 

[DaRick]

SA's best ever ODI batsman, one of their best ever Test batsmen, and a fairly sound keeper.

The one strike against him is his tendency to go on sabbaticals, even if it hurts the team. When it looked like his form was dipping in 2015/16, he went on a two-year sabbatical. He then returned in 2017/18 before quickly disappearing again, when SA would have badly needed his experience during the fallow years that were to follow.

Ricky Ponting was the opposite, which is why I'd rank him above ABdV as a Test batsman despite the latter's ridiculous talent. Jacques Kallis didn't do so, either.

 

[Trojan90]

De Villiers I put in a different cohort to most of the names you mention. Lara, Tendulkar, Dravid, Ponting and Kallis were from a different time who all debuted in the 90s (or earlier for Sachin), and he doesn't really belong to the most recent era of Smith, Williamson, Kohli and Root either.

His contemporaries I think of as Sangakkara, Hussey, Clarke, Younis Khan, Pietersen and Amla. And I'd say he's clearly second to Kumar in that list.

Yeah he kind of gets forgotten because of this. Came through when Sachin/Ponting/Lara/Kallis were established greats, by the time ABDV was established himself the hype had moved on to Smith/Kohli/Root/Kane who were the next big things. Clarke/Amla etc also fall into little 'in between' window.

 

[Tandy]

Yeah he is up there with them and deservedly so. Perhaps a little forgotten or underrated when it comes to talking about the greats. Though I feel like when he was playing he got plenty of kudos. Didn't he retire from tests prematurely as well? Am I reading OP correctly his holes or struggles were against Bangladesh and Zimbabwe? How

 

[RAPPA]

He was a freak but Kallis was a phenomenal, generational talent given his prowess with both bat and ball.

 

[yabsy]

SA's best ever ODI batsman, one of their best ever Test batsmen, and a fairly sound keeper.

The one strike against him is his tendency to go on sabbaticals, even if it hurts the team. When it looked like his form was dipping in 2015/16, he went on a two-year sabbatical. He then returned in 2017/18 before quickly disappearing again, when SA would have badly needed his experience during the fallow years that were to follow.

Ricky Ponting was the opposite, which is why I'd rank him above ABdV as a Test batsman despite the latter's ridiculous talent. Jacques Kallis didn't do so, either.

I guess the 98 consecutive tests from debut burnt him out in the format a bit.

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[eth-dog]

I guess the 98 consecutive tests from debut burnt him out in the format a bit.

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Weak, should have done the ton

 

[melanChronic]

Am I reading OP correctly his holes or struggles were against Bangladesh and Zimbabwe? How

Would be not out these days I believe.

 

[ioppolo]

Would be not out these days I believe.

They changed the double bounce rule?
Been a while since I've seen one but it's been a fair delivery since forever.

 

[eth-dog]

They changed the double bounce rule?
Been a while since I've seen one but it's been a fair delivery since forever.

Yeah, 3? Years ago. Also when they changed the crossing rule.

 

[DaRick]

I guess the 98 consecutive tests from debut burnt him out in the format a bit.

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I guess so, but others have played through more despite enduring form slumps of their own.

ABdV slumped in 2006/07 and 2015/16. From memory, he got a pair and then left the Test team for two years.

 

[PhatBoy]

Marsh needs to learn a lesson from that.

He has had a great period since he came back but he has also had a good run of luck and most of his innings could have had different outcomes. He needs to have a handbreak at times

 

[Gough]

I guess so, but others have played through more despite enduring form slumps of their own.

ABdV slumped in 2006/07 and 2015/16. From memory, he got a pair and then left the Test team for two years.

With his age and background I always wondered whether de Villers and CSA where ever on quite the same wave length