Rumour AFLW player refuses to wear pride jumper

[Aussie in exile]

In my opinion IF she feels alienated playing footy she will probably just go and play another team sport and other Muslims will probably follow scoring a propaganda victory for that sport over ours.

 

[GWT6]

This could be the dumbest ******* post I have read on this forum

What exactly do you think is dumb about it?

 

[WestCoast05]

She's a homophobe. Plain and simple.
And there's no room for homophobia in society.

How she can return and look her teammates in the eye and be part of that team now, I do not know.

But Islam does not agree with Homosexuality. That is a tenet of their Faith (and currently largely not accepted in their culture for those from Mid-East/North Africa).

So are you an Islamaphobe? Are you saying there is no room for observant Muslims in our society? (Which is fine if you are but at least recognise what you are saying and say it).
Or any other less-than-woke cultural groups?

I think just live and let live. Who is anyone to tell her what she should believe. She has not trying to force her belief down anyone's throat - she is asking that her religion be respected and that she not be forced to celebrate something she doesn't believe in.

 

[Land of the Giants]

She has not trying to force her belief down anyone's throat - she is asking that her religion be respected and that she not be forced to celebrate something she doesn't believe in.

Unfortunately, that is effectively like saying to a gay team-mate that she doesn't believe in them.

Being same-sex attracted is not a choice, unlike religious or cultural identification.

Allowing her to opt-out is privileging her because of her religion.

 

[WestCoast05]

Unfortunately, that is effectively like saying to a gay team-mate that she doesn't believe in them.

Being same-sex attracted is not a choice, unlike religious or cultural identification.

Allowing her to opt-out is privileging her because of her religion.

Well look I don't know what to tell you - but that would be the position of your average Muslim.
I have no solution to this beyond live and let live. Which it seems they HAVE all managed to do up until this point.

Are you genuinely suggesting that Muslims should have to change a part of their religion to be involved in AFL?
It's just not going to happen beyond polite smiling.

To be fair - I'm guessing all her teammates don't believe in her Islamic Faith either, nor should they have to. She would know that and I doubt it has bothered her.
Up until this time they have all found a way to live in harmony. Just let her honour her parents, her culture, her religion - however you want to look at it and sit the one round out (if that's what she's asking).

 

[Gralin]

Well look I don't know what to tell you - but that would be the position of your average Muslim.
I have no solution to this beyond live and let live. Which it seems they HAVE all managed to do up until this point.

Are you genuinely suggesting that Muslims should have to change a part of their religion to be involved in AFL?
It's just not going to happen beyond polite smiling.

To be fair - I'm guessing all her teammates don't believe in her Islamic Faith either, nor should they have to. She would know that and I doubt it has bothered her.
Up until this time they have all found a way to live in harmony. Just let her honour her parents, her culture, her religion - however you want to look at it and sit the one round out (if that's what she's asking).

Are you suggesting that all Muslims have an issue with it?

What's your view on the average Christian

 

[WestCoast05]

Are you suggesting that all Muslims have an issue with it?

What's your view on the average Christian

(If we're having this discussion, full disclosure: I'm from a Muslim family but wouldn't really class myself as one).

I think the term 'have an issue with it' is a tricky one. Most Muslims do not have an issue with it because they are not being asked to participate in a celebration of it as this young woman has.
In the same way most non-Muslims have no issue with Islam because they are not being forced to participate in the religion.
Therefore in most scenarios 'live and let live' works perfectly fine. But it's just in this case a young Muslim woman is being asked to participate in Pride round.

I would assume your 'average' Christian (or Jew) is the same as your average Muslim - they would have no issue with it until it infringes upon their right to practice their religion.
I would assume your average lgbqt+ is also the same - happy to go about their own life without trying to bother other ppl who think differently.
It's always the frothing at the mouth types from any walk of life that try to dictate to others what they should or shouldn't believe.

Btw at risk of being banned or whatever from the site just for stating a PoV -
Many ppl when thinking of PRIDE think of the parade, many of the older generation for example of course look at it as a bit of a 'look at that' type of thing.
There's breasts and sexuality being displayed in public. It's really not rocket science that certain more traditional cultures etc are not going to be into that type of thing.
Personally I've grown up here - but I don't understand why SOME Caucasians are obsessed with trying to dictate to other cultures (Arabs for example) that they HAVE to be into that kind of thing or you are a bigot if you don't celebrate the display of sexuality.
Personally I think in life we're all going to get along a lot better when we don't interfere with other peoples lives.

 

[Land of the Giants]

(If we're having this discussion, full disclosure: I'm from a Muslim family but wouldn't really class myself as one).

I think the term 'have an issue with it' is a tricky one. Most Muslims do not have an issue with it because they are not being asked to participate in a celebration of it as this young woman has.
In the same way most non-Muslims have no issue with Islam because they are not being forced to participate in the religion.
Therefore in most scenarios 'live and let live' works perfectly fine. But it's just in this case a young Muslim woman is being asked to participate in Pride round.

I would assume your 'average' Christian (or Jew) is the same as your average Muslim - they would have no issue with it until it infringes upon their right to practice their religion.
I would assume your average lgbqt+ is also the same - happy to go about their own life without trying to bother other ppl who think differently.
It's always the frothing at the mouth types from any walk of life that try to dictate to others what they should or shouldn't believe.

Btw at risk of being banned or whatever from the site just for stating a PoV -
Many ppl when thinking of PRIDE think of the parade, many of the older generation for example of course look at it as a bit of a 'look at that' type of thing.
There's breasts and sexuality being displayed in public. It's really not rocket science that certain more traditional cultures etc are not going to be into that type of thing.
Personally I've grown up here - but I don't understand why SOME Caucasians are obsessed with trying to dictate to other cultures (Arabs for example) that they HAVE to be into that kind of thing or you are a bigot if you don't celebrate the display of sexuality.
Personally I think in life we're all going to get along a lot better when we don't interfere with other peoples lives.

It all sounds quite reasonable, but the idea behind Pride Round was that gay people are an accepted part of the AFL community, and an individual player has sent a message that they're not an accepted part of her community. The optics aren't good and allowing it to happen appears to involve religious privilege.

But having grown up in Western Sydney, it doesn't surprise me. Western Sydney is very different to the rest of Australia, and it's certainly not a gay-friendly place, as was made abundantly clear by the result of the marriage equality postal ballot.

 

[philthy05]

So are you an Islamaphobe? Are you saying there is no room for observant Muslims in our society? (Which is fine if you are but at least recognise what you are saying and say it).
Or any other less-than-woke cultural groups?

I think just live and let live.

disagreeing with a rule in something that exists as a theoretical made up thing that is clearly wrong and hurtful to people who have suffered because of it is not a phobia.

Someone that knows flat earthers are obviously wrong doesn’t have a phobia of flat earthers.

Also your “live and let live” line shows how utterly out of touch you are.

Is that what you think the lgbtqi community has encountered? Do you have your eyes and ears sewn shut?
They’ve been persecuted.
We mock the Germans for not knowing they were the bad guys but as a society we marched a entire segment of society to the noose no different to marching them to the gas chamber. The right to marry became a thing like ten minutes ago ffs, so it’s not like this extreme prejudice was a thing in the distant past.
Every lgbtqi person on the planet has lived in a world where they’ve been told they are fundamentally broken, wrong, and lesser than.

I have no solution to this beyond live and let live. Which it seems they HAVE all managed to do up until this point.

Are you genuinely suggesting that Muslims should have to change a part of their religion to be involved in AFL?
It's just not going to happen beyond polite smiling.

To be fair - I'm guessing all her teammates don't believe in her Islamic Faith either, nor should they have to. She would know that and I doubt it has bothered her.
Up until this time they have all found a way to live in harmony. Just let her honour her parents, her culture, her religion - however you want to look at it and sit the one round out (if that's what she's asking).

A) The solution is that we make it clear as a society that there are certain things that are inalienable human rights, and someone isn’t less than or wrong cause they love someone.

And if a religion clashes with that then those people need to choose to discard that element, like they discarded other elements in the thing that was made up in a different era.

Let’s not pretend that each religion doesn’t have dozens of things they’ve discarded along the way.

B) “all her teammates don’t believe in her faith either”

This is such an out of touch irrational statement.

Not believing in a faith and being persecuted for who you love are not remotely comparable things.

(If we're having this discussion, full disclosure: I'm from a Muslim family but wouldn't really class myself as one).

I think the term 'have an issue with it' is a tricky one. Most Muslims do not have an issue with it because they are not being asked to participate in a celebration of it as this young woman has.
In the same way most non-Muslims have no issue with Islam because they are not being forced to participate in the religion.
Therefore in most scenarios 'live and let live' works perfectly fine. But it's just in this case a young Muslim woman is being asked to participate in Pride round.

I would assume your 'average' Christian (or Jew) is the same as your average Muslim - they would have no issue with it until it infringes upon their right to practice their religion.
I would assume your average lgbqt+ is also the same - happy to go about their own life without trying to bother other ppl who think differently.
It's always the frothing at the mouth types from any walk of life that try to dictate to others what they should or shouldn't believe.

Btw at risk of being banned or whatever from the site just for stating a PoV -
Many ppl when thinking of PRIDE think of the parade, many of the older generation for example of course look at it as a bit of a 'look at that' type of thing.
There's breasts and sexuality being displayed in public. It's really not rocket science that certain more traditional cultures etc are not going to be into that type of thing.
Personally I've grown up here - but I don't understand why SOME Caucasians are obsessed with trying to dictate to other cultures (Arabs for example) that they HAVE to be into that kind of thing or you are a bigot if you don't celebrate the display of sexuality.
Personally I think in life we're all going to get along a lot better when we don't interfere with other peoples lives.

Lol.

There’s been tonnes of Christians in the afl and they’ve participated in afl pride events.

This is common knowledge. I’m not sure why you suggest otherwise.

You’re views on this matter obviously come from someone with little to no exposure to the lgbtqi community. You, and this young Muslim girl would benefit from being exposed to them to see the hurt you can cause and that they’re just people trying to live and love who they want. It’s exactly why we need these pride events.

 

[WestCoast05]

A) The solution is that we make it clear as a society that there are certain things that are inalienable human rights, and someone isn’t less than or wrong cause they love someone.

And if a religion clashes with that then those people need to choose to discard that element, like they discarded other elements in the thing that was made up in a different era.

Let’s not pretend that each religion doesn’t have dozens of things they’ve discarded along the way.

Not believing in a faith and being persecuted for who you love are not remotely comparable things.

Look you've written way too much in one post for a discussion to be possible - but I think your post isn't wrong in theory - it just ignores the fact that ppl who have a different worldview are already in existence and not disappearing anytime soon.
Certainly caucasians lecturing the brown and black masses about how wrong their beliefs are is not going to work.

So, I don't disagree in theory as I am not religious myself but am just telling you the 'situation on the ground'. Being in that world I understand that the majority are prolly not Waleed Ali - they are more Bashar Houli. They would privately rather not be forced by someone else to wave the flag if they can avoid it (and of course I dont know how many would just cave to save their occupation etc).

But for those like my parents who are obviously going to not share your worldview, or any other Jew/Muslim/Christian/Hindu or person from any particular culture or background that refuses to discard something from their beliefs or faith - is it deportation or death? How will you enforce this?

And I'm not talking about those who actively persecute LGBTQ+ - I'm talking about those trying to go about their own business and live according to their own beliefs?

 

[WestCoast05]

It all sounds quite reasonable, but the idea behind Pride Round was that gay people are an accepted part of the AFL community, and an individual player has sent a message that they're not an accepted part of her community. The optics aren't good and allowing it to happen appears to involve religious privilege.

I get it. I'm really just trying to deal with the reality of the situation though.

 

[HairyO]

But Islam does not agree with Homosexuality. That is a tenet of their Faith (and currently largely not accepted in their culture for those from Mid-East/North Africa).

So are you an Islamaphobe? Are you saying there is no room for observant Muslims in our society? (Which is fine if you are but at least recognise what you are saying and say it).
Or any other less-than-woke cultural groups?

I think just live and let live. Who is anyone to tell her what she should believe. She has not trying to force her belief down anyone's throat - she is asking that her religion be respected and that she not be forced to celebrate something she doesn't believe in.

If thinking Islam is backward, treats women and gay people horrendously, and is the religioun behind most of the oppressive, dangerous governments in the world and that we should ensure the hardline views are never allowed to be legal here then yes.

I am what you say.

But here is my question: should I instead embrace those hardline views and be okay with a religion which sees women banned from education, beaten for being outside without a male family member, covered up and hidden from the world, executed for accusing a man of raping them, gay people imprisoned or even executed, etc ?

 

[WestCoast05]

But here is my question: should I instead embrace those hardline views and be okay with a religion which sees women banned from education, beaten for being outside without a male family member, covered up and hidden from the world, executed for accusing a man of raping them, gay people imprisoned or even executed, etc ?

Yeah I wouldnt recommend embracing any of that..

 

[philthy05]

I get it. I'm really just trying to deal with the reality of the situation though.

No you’re not.

You’re trying to justify someone’s poor behaviour which is known to have a negative effect (ie lgbtqi community has been ostracised and suffering for a long time)

Just because something is, doesn’t mean it should be tolerated or condoned.

Might as well have never left caves or formed society if you think progress should be abandoned because it will make a few dinosaurs uncomfortable.

 

[philthy05]

But for those like my parents who are obviously going to not share your worldview, or any other Jew/Muslim/Christian/Hindu or person from any particular culture or background that refuses to discard something from their beliefs or faith - is it deportation or death? How will you enforce this?

And I'm not talking about those who actively persecute LGBTQ+ - I'm talking about those trying to go about their own business and live according to their own beliefs?

Where have I ever even remotely suggested that “deportation or death” is how we should deal with people with homophobic views?

The opposite of not allowing people to partake in behaviour that belittles threatens and hurts a segment of society such as the lgbtqi community isn’t to kill or exile people with that hurtful behaviour, and that you’ve somehow leapt to that is strange.

I’ve taken issue with your claims that we should allow people to discriminate on religious grounds because and I paraphrase here “we shouldn’t force them to go against their religion”

And

“But the older generation believe it”

And again, let’s not pretend that it’s the first second or even 5th thing any of the religious scriptures has altered, had parts ignored and chosen to apply differently.

tonnes of outdated stuff gets discarded all the time.

The only reason homophobia hasn’t been discarded is the same reason it persisted in general society as long (and still does but not to the level it did as we’ve progressed slowly).

Bigotry, fear, toxic masculinity, ignorance.

 

[matthew_s]

Personally I've grown up here - but I don't understand why SOME Caucasians are obsessed with trying to dictate to other cultures (Arabs for example) that they HAVE to be into that kind of thing or you are a bigot if you don't celebrate the display of sexuality.
Personally I think in life we're all going to get along a lot better when we don't interfere with other peoples lives.

How is it any different from being expected (or made to by law) to dress modestly etc when visiting a muslim country?

 

[WillHayward]

I've decided to become a Pentecostal.
Looks kinda cool

"Take me to the April Sun in Cuba/wooha oh "

Getting down with it .

 

[WestCoast05]

How is it any different from being expected (or made to by law) to dress modestly etc when visiting a muslim country?

You certainly won't be forced to celebrate dressing modestly or forced to profess you agree with the position as a Westerner.
Do religious ppl usurp these Australian expectations over here, or are they just living their own lives the way they want leaving others to do the same largely?

How many reported cases are there of religious ppl trying walking up to two gay ppl and pulling their hands apart? If anyone does so they should be arrested.
There are gay weddings every weekend - how many have had religious ppl rock up to throw eggs or whatever? If anyone does so they should be arrested and charged.

The difference is many ppl are talking about forcing ppl to celebrate something though, which is kinda bizzare.

I won't lie - I'm not really one for the gender fluid stuff. I could be very wrong in my ideas but my upbringing and personal life experience has shaped me and so here we are.
But I have never done anything in my life to stop someone transitioning and nor would I, that's their life.
But I can't be forced to celebrate it or forced to not hold my personal view on what determines a biological male and female.

Where do we draw the line at what MUST be celebrated by portions of society who would rather peacefully go about their own lives?

 

[Philth]

But Islam does not agree with Homosexuality. That is a tenet of their Faith (and currently largely not accepted in their culture for those from Mid-East/North Africa).

So are you an Islamaphobe? Are you saying there is no room for observant Muslims in our society? (Which is fine if you are but at least recognise what you are saying and say it).
Or any other less-than-woke cultural groups?

I think just live and let live. Who is anyone to tell her what she should believe. She has not trying to force her belief down anyone's throat - she is asking that her religion be respected and that she not be forced to celebrate something she doesn't believe in.

I know that organised religion does not agree with homosexuality.
And that ancient and archaic view, is discriminating against a group because of the way they were born.

It's not just religious people - I will have very little respect for anyone who is homophobic.

 

[Alesana]

You certainly won't be forced to celebrate dressing modestly or forced to profess you agree with the position as a Westerner.
Do religious ppl usurp these Australian expectations over here, or are they just living their own lives the way they want leaving others to do the same largely?

How many reported cases are there of religious ppl trying walking up to two gay ppl and pulling their hands apart? If anyone does so they should be arrested.
There are gay weddings every weekend - how many have had religious ppl rock up to throw eggs or whatever? If anyone does so they should be arrested and charged.

The difference is many ppl are talking about forcing ppl to celebrate something though, which is kinda bizzare.

I won't lie - I'm not really one for the gender fluid stuff. I could be very wrong in my ideas but my upbringing and personal life experience has shaped me and so here we are.
But I have never done anything in my life to stop someone transitioning and nor would I, that's their life.
But I can't be forced to celebrate it or forced to not hold my personal view on what determines a biological male and female.

Where do we draw the line at what MUST be celebrated by portions of society who would rather peacefully go about their own lives?

I agree on the gender identity stuff, and choosing your gender is no different to choosing your religion afaiac. You make those choices and you live with the consequences. I think there needs to be a separation between T and LGB, Trans is a choice, LGB is not. Trans belongs in the same basket as Religion.

 

[philthy05]

How many reported cases are there of religious ppl trying walking up to two gay ppl and pulling their hands apart? If anyone does so they should be arrested.
There are gay weddings every weekend - how many have had religious ppl rock up to throw eggs or whatever? If anyone does so they should be arrested and charged.

The difference is many ppl are talking about forcing ppl to celebrate something though, which is kinda bizzare.

Where do we draw the line at what MUST be celebrated by portions of society who would rather peacefully go about their own lives?

heck me dead and s**t on my grave,

You really think that the lgbtqi community have not experienced those things and much much worse? Like as a common occurrence throughout their lives? A group who has been physically attacked and fearful of it still to this day in 2022, where suicide rates are extremely high, and whose human rights have been denied?

You don’t think a religious person has just ran up to a couple and pulled their hands apart? I know religious (and non-religious people) have straight up murdered them.

It’s pretty apparent that you have zero experience with the community, have a pretty insular life and are a homophobic man whose claim to fame is that although you think these people are wrong that you personally won’t stop them. Want a medal?

Pride is about trying to show and make a group of people feel that they are welcome and safe, because we’ve failed in the past. Miserably failed.

 

[WestCoast05]

You don’t think a religious person has just ran up to a couple and pulled their hands apart? I know religious (and non-religious people) have straight up murdered them.

I'm more than willing to be educated.

If you have some Australian data/figures on religious ppl murdering / attacking homosexual ppl PLS share it. If it is in the levels suggested then I am outraged with you at that and the full force of the law should be thrown at them (or at anyone who attacks anyone else).

However I will point out that the middle-eastern community has of course experienced racism and worse themselves - never in my mind would I seek to blame the millions of good-natured white Aussies, I would assume the racist attack reflects the intolerance and approved actions of a very small minority.

 

[WestCoast05]

It’s pretty apparent that you have zero experience with the community, have a pretty insular life and are a homophobic man whose claim to fame is that although you think these people are wrong that you personally won’t stop them. Want a medal?

Yeah I personally know some gay ppl
but would have to agree I am not experienced in the lgbqt+ world.
My world is far from insular though - it's hard to be insular when you grow up in a multi-cultural Australian High School. But I will wear it that I am probably not as well versed in your circles.

You are obviously emotional about this issue which is causing you to read too deeply into what I have to say and interpret it all how you like, which is typical really.

I'm more than happy to continue to discuss minus the hyperbole and emotion.

But the main point of my argument isnt about wrong and right - the question is how are you going to convince everyone that has a different worldview than you that they have to think the same as you? The majority of them just go about their lives minding their business.
Even if I agreed with 100% of what you say I don't know what you are actually suggesting should happen to the masses of the Western Suburbs for example? Is you answer to disclude them from society? It's a genuine conundrum so what is your view?

 

[NorthcoteDee]

As Shaun Cassidy said/sang years ago "C'mon everybody get down and get with it".

I think that sums up the situation quite succinctly and accordingly I suggest that this thread be closed.

 

[Gold Rocks]

Let's be honest here
Th3Gay and Trans community here in Australia has far more pressing issues to worry about.

This so called 'scandal' was raised by hypocritical Christian Right Wing Nutjobs trying to deflect from their own decades own politically and church endorsed homophobia

Naneen not willing to wear the Pride Jumper is disappointing but hardly a crime against humanity.

Also it won't stop the 100s of homophobic slurs I hear at the footy every week.

At the very least, this issue has given an otherwise tedious and mediocre AFLW season much needed media attention.

Wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if Gil McDildo actually orchestrated this whole fiasco tbh. He is a grub.

Interesting