Analysis Aussie Rules Explained - Swans Board Style

[SBD Gonzalez]

Some fantastic questions DarkFlyer (welcome! You've chosen the best club to follow, BTW). And some wonderful, informed responses from everyone. Good on you, mods, for giving it a sticky, as I can see this thread being a conduit for some broader discussions of footy's place in the wider scheme of things for a long time to come.

I will gather my thoughts in due course and put finger to keyboard, but for the time being, DarkFlyer, I just wanted an answer to the question I can't believe no one has asked YOU - any chance of an update on how things went with the attractive young Australian lass you met on the plane who turned you on to footy?

 

[DarkFlyer]

Some fantastic questions DarkFlyer (welcome! You've chosen the best club to follow, BTW). And some wonderful, informed responses from everyone. Good on you, mods, for giving it a sticky, as I can see this thread being a conduit for some broader discussions of footy's place in the wider scheme of things for a long time to come.

I will gather my thoughts in due course and put finger to keyboard, but for the time being, DarkFlyer, I just wanted an answer to the question I can't believe no one has asked YOU - any chance of an update on how things went with the attractive young Australian lass you met on the plane who turned you on to footy?

Alas, I am old and married (with my wife sitting in the next row), so I had to be content with the AFL advice. Besides, now that I know things, I wouldn't touch one of those filthy Hawthorn broads . . .

 

[Millky95]

Alas, I am old and married (with my wife sitting in the next row), so I had to be content with the AFL advice. Besides, now that I know things, I wouldn't touch one of those filthy Hawthorn broads . . .

And you are officially a Swan

 

[GotTheGoodes]

G'day & welcome DarkFlyer.

Always great to see a new BF poster and more importantly a new Bloods fan get on board. Looking forward to seeing you around the boards in the coming weeks.

Keep slamming the board with questions mate. We've got some really knowledgeable posters around that I'm sure can answer almost anything you throw at them.

Importantly, along with the Mighty South Melbourne Bloods (AKA Sydney Swans), who else do you happen to follow sport wise? NBA? NFL? NHL? MLB? EPL? etc etc? Ever had a chance to watch some cricket?

PS - I'm with SBD Gonzalez and glad robbieando & co have decided to sticky this.

 

[miggs]

Welcome mate, Im new too. Majority of the guys are great on here. In saying that i dont really go anywhere else apart from the swans board and the punting board.

Also interested to hear about which US teams you support

 

[DarkFlyer]

G'day & welcome DarkFlyer.

Importantly, along with the Mighty South Melbourne Bloods (AKA Sydney Swans), who else do you happen to follow sport wise? NBA? NFL? NHL? MLB? EPL? etc etc? Ever had a chance to watch some cricket?

PS - I'm with SBD Gonzalez and glad robbieando & co have decided to sticky this.

I will try to avoid making this a personal thread, because future AFL initiates don't need to read about me. Maybe I will condense the answers I have received to the first post so that the meat of the thread is easily accessible.

NBA: I am from Ohio, the same state as LeBron James, so I am more of a fan of him than any team. Strangely, quite a few Americans root for specific players rather than a die hard for a specific team, although there are plenty of those too. The NBA has always relied on individual stars to market their sport, and I am attracted to watching the transcendent talent like Jordan, Olajuwon, Kobe, Curry, Dellavedova.

I am really a bigger fan of college basketball and specifically I have season tickets to the University of Dayton Flyers (the school I attended). I travel to watch NCAA tournament games in person every year. Love basketball.

NFL: Buffalo Bills fan. They are the smallest, most irrelevant team in the NFL with a history of heartbreak. The Richmond Tigers of the NFL?

NHL: Nope. Just not a hockey fan. Their aren't many casual hockey fans in the US - most are either hardcore or totally disinterested.

MLB: I am a tepid Cincinnati Reds fan. I used to really follow baseball, but it is horrible to watch on TV and just really slow overall.

EPL: More of a World Cup guy and raised in a generation where Americans generally ignored soccer.

Cricket: When I was in Melbourne last year, the Cricket World Cup was going on at the MCG. The city was CRAZY with Aussies and Blackcaps. If I'm not mistaken, it was the highest attended cricket match of all time. And good on you Aussies! You kicked their ass. The city was a giant party with drunken revelry and fireworks!

That said: what the heck kind of sport is that? I had someone explain the rules to me when I was there, and I was so confused it literally made me more stupid on the spot. Obviously cricket is huge there, but it's not likely I am going to start a thread on a cricket messages board any time soon. . .

Thanks again for the warm welcome.

 

[DarkFlyer]

Speaking of what happens after a goal, why does the official make such a show of cleaning the ball before each bounce after a goal is scored? I assume it is some sort of tradition, but does anyone know it's roots?

 

[Millky95]

Speaking of what happens after a goal, why does the official make such a show of cleaning the ball before each bounce after a goal is scored? I assume it is some sort of tradition, but does anyone know it's roots?

I would assume to make sure the ball doesnt have something on it so it can bounce straight up. Bouncing those things is a real art haha

 

[Number37]

Speaking of what happens after a goal, why does the official make such a show of cleaning the ball before each bounce after a goal is scored? I assume it is some sort of tradition, but does anyone know it's roots?

No tradition.

Cleaning the ball is just so that they can get a grip in order to bounce it properly.

 

[BruceFromBalnarring]

These are great questions and it's a great thread.

I would just add for the purposes of understanding that Australian Football has developed over a century very much in the context of culture.

Much of what doesn't make immediate sense can be explained in part by social history dating back to the early part of last century. Most of the clubs were simply suburban clubs and those clubs were defined very much by economic and sectarian values that existed in those suburbs at the time. Some Catholic, some Protestant, some affluent, some working class so you can imagine certain hatreds are both deeply held but at the same time completely irrational.

There are some great books on this if your interest is that deep.

 

[DarkFlyer]

These are great questions and it's a great thread.

I would just add for the purposes of understanding that Australian Football has developed over a century very much in the context of culture.

Much of what doesn't make immediate sense can be explained in part by social history dating back to the early part of last century. Most of the clubs were simply suburban clubs and those clubs were defined very much by economic and sectarian values that existed in those suburbs at the time. Some Catholic, some Protestant, some affluent, some working class so you can imagine certain hatreds are both deeply held but at the same time completely irrational.

There are some great books on this if your interest is that deep.

It is that deep. What are some of the best books about the history of the AFL?

 

[BruceFromBalnarring]

Speaking of what happens after a goal, why does the official make such a show of cleaning the ball before each bounce after a goal is scored? I assume it is some sort of tradition, but does anyone know it's roots?

The umpires cleaning the ball is a relatively recent habit.

The umpires making a great show of doing it (and pretty much everything else) is a habit dating back to at least the 70s and is designed to, or at least has the effect of, adding to the collective anger felt towards them by crowds who wish they were invisible.

Ray Chamberlain is the worst in recent times, but old timers like myself and Bedford will remember a bloke by the name of Frankie Virgona in the old VFA who was the worst of the lot.

 

[DarkFlyer]

What is considered to be the greatest single season team in AFL history?

What is considered to be the great Swans team ever?

How many Swans fans remain in Melbourne from before the move?

 

[DarkFlyer]

The umpires cleaning the ball is a relatively recent habit.

The umpires making a great show of doing it (and pretty much everything else) is a habit dating back to at least the 70s and is designed to, or at least has the effect of, adding to the collective anger felt towards them by crowds who wish they were invisible.

Ray Chamberlain is the worst in recent times, but old timers like myself and Bedford will remember a bloke by the name of Frankie Virgona in the old VFA who was the worst of the lot.

I am a bit surprised at the intense vitriol for the umpires permeating these responses (not just you Bruce, but most everyone). Is this a more recent trend?

Does the AFL have any ability to replay/review any of the rulings on the field to overturn them? Just about every American sport features this mechanism for correcting calls and it absolutely sucks the fun and continuity out of the games.

 

[BruceFromBalnarring]

It is that deep. What are some of the best books about the history of the AFL?

Absolutely. There are of course more recent rivalries like Sydney/Hawthorn, or Sydney/West Coast as mentioned earlier, but (and I've never been to New York) if you can imagine places like Queens, Brooklyn, Harlem, and The Bronx each having a footy team it might begin to make some sense.

You could start with "Shake Down The Thunder" by Jim Main which gives an (albeit relatively recent) history of the Sydney Swans. John Harms has written a couple. Matt Hardy, the comedian, has, I'm sure, done one on St Kilda. Not all of these are histories as such but give an insight into the culture that surrounds supporting various clubs.

 

[DarkFlyer]

You could start with "Shake Down The Thunder" by Jim Main

Thanks for the suggestion. I am ordering it now.

But more importantly, the title of the book reminded me of a question I wanted to ask! You share a fight song with the University of Notre Dame here in America (it just so happens I had an older brother who attended). It is a fairly famous fight song here in America. Does anyone know the history behind the adoption of that song by the Swans? What are the words to your fight song? Do most fans know the words?

 

[BruceFromBalnarring]

What is considered to be the greatest single season team in AFL history?

What is considered to be the great Swans team ever?

How many Swans fans remain in Melbourne from before the move?

OK. 2 more for me then I have to get back to work.

1. The first question is simply too subjective and you'll never get a consistent answer. Hawks supporters would point to their current one. South supporters might say 1933.

2. The greatest Swans team ever is another subjective one. It would have to be 1933 or one of the recent ones. We were bloody terrible for a long time between 1930s and 1996.

3. Heaps of us. Someone might have the membership stats but I would estimate we lost about 1/3 of our supporters in grief at the time and probably another 1/3 lost interest for a while. But Sydney, in around 1996, made an effort to reinclude their old South supporters and that second third wandered back into the fold.

 

[BruceFromBalnarring]

I am a bit surprised at the intense vitriol for the umpires permeating these responses (not just you Bruce, but most everyone). Is this a more recent trend?

Does the AFL have any ability to replay/review any of the rulings on the field to overturn them? Just about every American sport features this mechanism for correcting calls and it absolutely sucks the fun and continuity out of the games.

The vitriol is itself cultural. It's a high passion game. But, in my opinion certainly, the umpires have over the last few decades tried to adopt the role of participants in the game and that is a cause for irritation, much like when news reporters do the same thing. They want a slice of the fame. It gives me the shits.

The game is about the contest not about the sideshows. The umpires don't need to be marching onto the field in step. They don't need to be pirouetting and prancing around the field. We're not at the game to see them. Chamberlain attracts the most vitriol because he's the most flambouyant.

We have goal reviews and to my mind, these haven't added any value to the game. There are still mistakes, and the football experience hasn't improved from them. In fact, again, it seems to just create another opportunity for non-players to inject themselves into the conversation.

 

[BruceFromBalnarring]

Thanks for the suggestion. I am ordering it now.

But more importantly, the title of the book reminded me of a question I wanted to ask! You share a fight song with the University of Notre Dame here in America (it just so happens I had an older brother who attended). It is a fairly famous fight song here in America. Does anyone know the history behind the adoption of that song by the Swans? What are the words to your fight song? Do most fans know the words?

Ok this is really the last one. I'm pretty sure it was just a direct steal from Notre Dame. There was a bit of a fight about its use I'm pretty sure. A copyright issue. In any event, it's been our song since 1961.

Cheer, cheer the red and the white,
Honour the name by day and by night,
Lift that noble banner high,
Shake down the thunder from the sky
Whether the odds be great or small,
Swans will go in and win overall
While her loyal sons are marching
Onwards to victory!

I still sing "South" instead of "Swans" in the third last line.

Prior to that it was an adaptation of "Springtime in the Rockies." I'm trying to find the lyrics.

 

[DarkFlyer]

Ok this is really the last one. I'm pretty sure it was just a direct steal from Notre Dame. There was a bit of a fight about its use I'm pretty sure. A copyright issue. In any event, it's been our song since 1961.

Cheer, cheer the red and the white,
Honour the name by day and by night,
Lift that noble banner high,
Shake down the thunder from the sky
Whether the odds be great or small,
Swans will go in and win overall
While her loyal sons are marching
Onwards to victory!

I still sing "South" instead of "Swans" in the third last line.

Prior to that it was an adaptation of "Springtime in the Rockies." I'm trying to find the lyrics.

Bruce, you are all sorts of awesome. Don't lose your job.

 

[BruceFromBalnarring]

Bruce, you are all sorts of awesome. Don't lose your job.

It's ok. I work for myself. But I might lose my wife!!!

 

[Mister B]

**Touching wood***

Is GWS the biggest rival? If so, proximity? Please tell me reasons I should hate other teams.

Most of these are more personal opinion than based on fact or history but make of it what you will.
Adelaide- Their home fans are apparently pretty feral and visiting fans to their ground despise them because of it.
Brisbane- No real hatred, some didn't like the success they had in the early 00's for similar reasons as we are disliked by Melbourne clubs (being seen as reliant on AFL funds despite many of their clubs receiving more assistance)
Carlton- Some hatred back to the 'Bloodbath' Grand Final from the older members, some hatred due to their salary cap cheating in the 90's but mostly now a laughing stock for being terrible, year in year out.
Collingwood- Supporters are scum, President is scum. Personal experience saw us forced to sit next to their cheers squad in '98. We were sworn at and spat at for the whole game and security did nothing, but the filth went to complain about a 90 year old swans supporter ringing a bell after each goal was scored and he got booted out the ground. Never saw him attend a game after that. Scum.
Essendon- Performance enhancing drug controversy has seen greater vitriol slung their way. Arrogant club.
Fremantle- No real vitriol here either. One of the newer teams to the league and haven't achieved anything.
Geelong- High performing in recent decade and with some success it can breed contempt. Mostly hate them because we are made to play them at their rubbish stadium that can't hold their own supporters let alone allow any of us access.
Gold Coast- Nothing club....yet.
GWS- Nothing club.....yet. Trying to be a rival when the likelihood is they will be based out of Canberra soon enough.
Hawthorn- High performing of late, many players are inclined to play the man and not the ball and are perceived to get a great run with umpiring and match review panel (Discipline tribunal). Have joined with Collingwood to personally attack our club in recent years and their supporters have a tendency to be very arrogant as they march around with their members scarves that reveal they have only jumped on the bandwagon in the lat 2 or three years.
Melbourne- No real hatred here either. Like Carlton, seen as perennial losers.
North Melbourne- Beat us in 96 for the flag. Reliant on the AFL to keep them afloat and sell of their games to Tasmania which we end up getting lumped with so Melbourne based Swans fans lose another game from their membership.
Port Adelaide - Not a huge reason to hate them. They are from Adelaide which is a bit backwards so that's a good enough reason not to like them though.
Richmond - Large supporter base that hasn't tasted success in recent times. Despite this every year, their moronic supporters will tell you how good they are and how they will smash everyone, only to be calling for sackings, spitting on their coach, dumping piles of chicken manure at their training ground gates and microwaving their membership cards by three quarters of the way through the season.
St Kilda - Traditional neighbourhood rivals in the days of South Melbourne. Were issues with them poaching players for memory at some stage too. Again, lack success so not really a great deal of hatred in their direction.
Western Bulldogs- In recent years their president has also jumped on the "We hate Sydney" bandwagon. Another club like North Melbourne that have tried to reinvent themselves 20 times over and rely on the AFL to get them by.
West Coast Eagles- Epic rivalry in the mid 00's. Supporters can be quite arrogant, beat us for the '06 flag by 1 point and it was later claimed that half the club were using recreational drugs during that period. (We want our rightful flag given to us!)

Hope this helps!

 

[DarkFlyer]

Most of these are more personal opinion than based on fact or history but make of it what you will.
Adelaide- Their home fans are apparently pretty feral and visiting fans to their ground despise them because of it.
Brisbane- No real hatred, some didn't like the success they had in the early 00's for similar reasons as we are disliked by Melbourne clubs (being seen as reliant on AFL funds despite many of their clubs receiving more assistance)
Carlton- Some hatred back to the 'Bloodbath' Grand Final from the older members, some hatred due to their salary cap cheating in the 90's but mostly now a laughing stock for being terrible, year in year out.
Collingwood- Supporters are scum, President is scum. Personal experience saw us forced to sit next to their cheers squad in '98. We were sworn at and spat at for the whole game and security did nothing, but the filth went to complain about a 90 year old swans supporter ringing a bell after each goal was scored and he got booted out the ground. Never saw him attend a game after that. Scum.
Essendon- Performance enhancing drug controversy has seen greater vitriol slung their way. Arrogant club.
Fremantle- No real vitriol here either. One of the newer teams to the league and haven't achieved anything.
Geelong- High performing in recent decade and with some success it can breed contempt. Mostly hate them because we are made to play them at their rubbish stadium that can't hold their own supporters let alone allow any of us access.
Gold Coast- Nothing club....yet.
GWS- Nothing club.....yet. Trying to be a rival when the likelihood is they will be based out of Canberra soon enough.
Hawthorn- High performing of late, many players are inclined to play the man and not the ball and are perceived to get a great run with umpiring and match review panel (Discipline tribunal). Have joined with Collingwood to personally attack our club in recent years and their supporters have a tendency to be very arrogant as they march around with their members scarves that reveal they have only jumped on the bandwagon in the lat 2 or three years.
Melbourne- No real hatred here either. Like Carlton, seen as perennial losers.
North Melbourne- Beat us in 96 for the flag. Reliant on the AFL to keep them afloat and sell of their games to Tasmania which we end up getting lumped with so Melbourne based Swans fans lose another game from their membership.
Port Adelaide - Not a huge reason to hate them. They are from Adelaide which is a bit backwards so that's a good enough reason not to like them though.
Richmond - Large supporter base that hasn't tasted success in recent times. Despite this every year, their moronic supporters will tell you how good they are and how they will smash everyone, only to be calling for sackings, spitting on their coach, dumping piles of chicken manure at their training ground gates and microwaving their membership cards by three quarters of the way through the season.
St Kilda - Traditional neighbourhood rivals in the days of South Melbourne. Were issues with them poaching players for memory at some stage too. Again, lack success so not really a great deal of hatred in their direction.
Western Bulldogs- In recent years their president has also jumped on the "We hate Sydney" bandwagon. Another club like North Melbourne that have tried to reinvent themselves 20 times over and rely on the AFL to get them by.
West Coast Eagles- Epic rivalry in the mid 00's. Supporters can be quite arrogant, beat us for the '06 flag by 1 point and it was later claimed that half the club were using recreational drugs during that period. (We want our rightful flag given to us!)

Hope this helps!

This is great!

GWS based in Canberra? First I've heard of that. Is that a jab at them or a real possibility? I hate them because they are opponent this weekend. Go Swans!

I hate West Cost for beating the Swans in 06 too. But recreational drugs? Are those a competitive advantage? If so, I would already be the president of my company!

Richmond LOL. Those delusional fans are the worst. They win the "offseason Grand Final" every year I bet.

 

[Mister B]

This is great!

GWS based in Canberra? First I've heard of that. Is that a jab at them or a real possibility? I hate them because they are opponent this weekend. Go Swans!

I hate West Cost for beating the Swans in 06 too. But recreational drugs? Are those a competitive advantage? If so, I would already be the president of my company!

Richmond LOL. Those delusional fans are the worst. They win the "offseason Grand Final" every year I bet.

The Canberra thing is a bit of a crack at them but wouldn't surprise anyone as they already play three games a season down there. Will be 15 years off happening but if they don't gain support as they start making finals, it will be under consideration.
Recreational drugs, depends on who you ask. I'd say the euphoric feeling would assist to overcome minor injury niggles that might have restricted them otherwise. The ability to run harder for longer would no doubt be a competitive advantage but I wouldn't know so not for me to make that judgement.
As for Richmond fans, pre-season premiers sums up a fair few of them. They just never learn!!

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

These are great questions and it's a great thread.

I would just add for the purposes of understanding that Australian Football has developed over a century very much in the context of culture.

Much of what doesn't make immediate sense can be explained in part by social history dating back to the early part of last century. Most of the clubs were simply suburban clubs and those clubs were defined very much by economic and sectarian values that existed in those suburbs at the time. Some Catholic, some Protestant, some affluent, some working class so you can imagine certain hatreds are both deeply held but at the same time completely irrational.

There are some great books on this if your interest is that deep.

I should just add some nuance from NSW, as that is my home state.

Already we've seen references in this thread to "Rugby" as if it's just one code.

Aussie Rules fans from mostly the southern states do this all the time. It's never clear to me whether it's from sheer ignorance, or a subliminal desire to express utter contempt for any rival code (which I share, BTW).

But the fact is, if you're going to examine the cultural context of the development of our beloved footy and our beloved Swans, you're obliged to at least acknowledge the cultural reality of its main rivals.

Rugby League (or "League" or "NRL" in Australia, but never "Rugby", except to ignorant people, or willful southerners) began in northern England as a professional, predominantly working-class offshoot of Rugby Union (or "Rugby" - note, or "Union") - the original game (and amazingly - when you examine the two side-by-side today - the established game that Aussie Rules most evolved from).

They are very different games to watch. League is much simpler, and most of the activity is confined to a fairly small area, making it ideal for television, which is reflected in its massive TV ratings (the only serious rival on TV to AFL), despite having fairly paltry game attendances (except for the finals series, and the State of Origin three-match series between NSW and Queensland, which is huge).

In Australia, where we like to consider ourselves fairly egalitarian, the divide between the two codes has actually been quite profound, and is most expressed along public/private school lines. In NSW at least, most all the bankers, lawyers, surgeons etc went to private schools, and played and follow Rugby.

If you went to a state school in NSW (I assume the same applies for Queensland), you'd tend to play and follow Rugby League.

(It prompts me to ask my southern cousins, how on earth do the posh snobs and the hoi polloi effectively express their mutual disdain, if they all played the same sport at school?)

Rugby for most of its long history was an amateur game, presumably because the posh set considered themselves above such crudeness. Rugby went pro some time back now; there is now a lot more money overtly involved, and consequently there has been increasing movement of players between the two codes, but considerable enmity and suspicion still exists.

Rugby has an international dimension which is almost entirely denied Rugby League. The Rugby World Cup is the third-biggest sporting event in the world, after the soccer World Cup and the Olympics (you'd probably say the "summer" Olympics but we Aussies by and large, for obvious reasons, pretty much ignore the crap-climate Olympics).

Internationally, League really only has a presence in northern England, its birthplace, though New Zealand, generally considered the supreme Rugby Union nation, does field a team in Australia's National Rugby League, or NRL. Go figure.

Why the background lecture? Because the Sydney Swans represent the (extremely successful) vanguard of the AFL's thrust into the highly-lucrative northern market (particularly Sydney itself, considered the most crowded sporting market in an already-crowded national market).

No other country has four major football codes (soccer in Oz is for another day; don't get me started) all competing for sponsor and fan dollars, all with differing strengths and appeals, and nowhere is the competition more intense than the Sydney market, where our footy is up against not just soccer and "rugby", but soccer and two distinct rugby codes who at times are quite hostile to each other.

It's against this backdrop that the Sydney Swans, since the move from South Melbourne in 1982, have survived and lately thrived.

No appraisal of our club's proud recent history is complete without an informed understanding of the nuances of what it's been fighting against.