Opinion Brian Cook - Carlton's rebuild still has a fair way to go

[La Dispute]

Tackles aren’t a good measure of a midfielders defensive running as they are largely a contest stat which is Cripps’ bread and butter.

From what I’ve seen Cripps has never excelled at being a two way footballer not many star mids are tbh. The Sam Walsh types are a rarity.

What is a better/more convenient stat?

 

[Arr0w]

I know you weren’t the one to bring up tackles but total tackles is a junk stat that means very little isolation. If tackling is important then the differential will tell you much more then the raw total.

In 2021 Melbourne averaged 1.5 more tackles then there opponent which was good for the 11th best in the league. Carlton as an were -7.8. Number 1 in the lease was +10

Differentials are certainly more appropriate, but we are talking flag winning sides, but I will add Demons and Carlton

2021 Demons 11th
2020 Tigers 1st (Demons 17th, Carlton 12th)
2019 Tigers 1st (Demons 17th, Carlton 15th)
2018 Eagles 10th (Demons 13th, Carlton 18th)
2017 Tigers 5th (Demons 12th, Carlton 7th)
2016 Dogs 16th (Demons 17th, Carlton 13th)
2015 Hawks 6th (Demons 14th, Carlton 13th)
2014 Hawks 13th (Demons 18th, Carlton 11th)
2013 Hawkes 8th (Demons 14th, Carlton 12th)

Going be that, there is no real advantage when it comes to tackles V flags as a key indicator

I would have been more impressed if the poster had separated wet/humid conditions/outdoor/indoor, as we know tackles increase or decrease depending on conditions and or how many attempted tackles (not considered as a tackle if the opposition have an effective disposal) in a phase of play that were instigated before an opposition side had an ineffective disposal (registered tackle)

Edited: if you have a pinkie touching an opposition player that has an ineffective disposal, that's registered as a tackle. It's why pressure acts are more vital in assessing defensive effectiveness

 

[Ambrosia]

What is a better/more convenient stat?

There isn’t really one. Total distance covered, number sprint efforts and other gps stats probably give some insight.

Being able to lay a tackle is a valuable defensive skill no doubt but I don’t see how it correlates to two running.

 

[Ambrosia]

Differentials are certainly more appropriate, but we are talking flag winning sides, but I will add Demons and Carlton

2021 Demons 11th
2020 Tigers 1st (Demons 17th, Carlton 12th)
2019 Tigers 1st (Demons 17th, Carlton 15th)
2018 Eagles 10th (Demons 13th, Carlton 18th)
2017 Tigers 5th (Demons 12th, Carlton 7th)
2016 Dogs 16th (Demons 17th, Carlton 13th)
2015 Hawks 6th (Demons 14th, Carlton 13th)
2014 Hawks 13th (Demons 18th, Carlton 11th)
2013 Hawkes 8th (Demons 14th, Carlton 12th)

Going be that, there is no real advantage when it comes to tackles V flags as a key indicator

I would have been more impressed if the poster had separated wet/humid conditions/outdoor/indoor, as we know tackles increase or decrease depending on conditions and or how many attempted tackles (not considered as a tackle if the opposition have an effective disposal) in a phase of play that were instigated before an opposition side had an ineffective disposal (registered tackle)

Edited: if you have a pinkie touching an opposition player that has an effective disposal, that's registered as a tackle. It's why pressure acts are more vital in assessing defensive effectiveness

Agree the tackle stat does not seem to be a great indicator of a quality side.

Your edit is wrong. For a tackle to be recorded the tackler must prevent the opposition from releasing an effective disposal.

 

[Cripps 'n' Blue Bloods]

Tackles aren’t a good measure of a midfielders defensive running as they are largely a contest stat which is Cripps’ bread and butter.

From what I’ve seen Cripps has never excelled at being a two way footballer not many star mids are tbh. The Sam Walsh types are a rarity.

I don't have a problem with that assessment and was going to say something similar myself earlier but didn't get around to it.
He's not strong defensively and isn't a great two way runner. That's fine, as long as you don't have too many of those types, the ones you do have are elite at the other things they do and the rest of the team or structure can cover for it.
In recent years, we've had too many one way runners and not enough coverage, not to mention poor defensive structure, especially under Teague.

 

[Ambrosia]

I don't have a problem with that assessment and was going to say something similar myself earlier but didn't get around to it.
He's not strong defensively and isn't a great two way runner. That's fine, as long as you don't have too many of those types, the ones you do have are elite at the other things they do and the rest of the team or structure can cover for it.
In recent years, we've had too many one way runners and not enough coverage, not to mention poor defensive structure, especially under Teague.

There’s also the point of is it even worth having your best players especially if they aren’t aerobically gifted expending so much energy on defensive running. Let the guns focus on impacting contests and have guys like Lambert and Neal-Bullen bust their ass from a HFF.

Agree Teague’s defensive system or ability to implement a system was likely the worst in the AFL.

 

[Tony_Clifton]

The problem with the majority of negative opinions in here is that they automatically take the stance of 'Carlton are crap, they've been crap for a long time and therefore will continue to be crap ad infinitum', or 'Voss was a crap coach 10 years ago and despite more recent signs to the contrary, I refuse to believe that can/will change'.
These people refuse to give ANY ground or concede that there's even a slight possibility that the opposite might happen.

I think that changing your mind when presented with new evidence is a solid sign of intelligence. The trouble convincing non Carlton folks is that the club's media do a good job year in and year out telling us that Carlton are coming. Any explanations for reasons why this time it's different or putting past stuff into context is a waste of time because we feel we've been told this stuff before.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating. That is, how well 2022 turns out. Unfortunately we won't have an answer for till next September. If you have solid reasons to believe that the naysayers are wrong ask them to put their money where their mouth is. $100 should do it.

 

[Arr0w]

Agree the tackle stat does not seem to be a great indicator of a quality side.

Your edit is wrong. For a tackle to be recorded the tackler must prevent the opposition from releasing an effective disposal.

Corrected

 

[premiershipvigil]

Differentials are certainly more appropriate, but we are talking flag winning sides, but I will add Demons and Carlton

2021 Demons 11th
2020 Tigers 1st (Demons 17th, Carlton 12th)
2019 Tigers 1st (Demons 17th, Carlton 15th)
2018 Eagles 10th (Demons 13th, Carlton 18th)
2017 Tigers 5th (Demons 12th, Carlton 7th)
2016 Dogs 16th (Demons 17th, Carlton 13th)
2015 Hawks 6th (Demons 14th, Carlton 13th)
2014 Hawks 13th (Demons 18th, Carlton 11th)
2013 Hawkes 8th (Demons 14th, Carlton 12th)

Going be that, there is no real advantage when it comes to tackles V flags as a key indicator

I would have been more impressed if the poster had separated wet/humid conditions/outdoor/indoor, as we know tackles increase or decrease depending on conditions and or how many attempted tackles (not considered as a tackle if the opposition have an effective disposal) in a phase of play that were instigated before an opposition side had an ineffective disposal (registered tackle)

Edited: if you have a pinkie touching an opposition player that has an ineffective disposal, that's registered as a tackle. It's why pressure acts are more vital in assessing defensive effectiveness

Incorrect. Melbourne are 1st for tackles its a great advantage and highly valued by club and supporters alike. Carlton are ranked 15th and really need to address it otherwise they will continue to be uncompetitive in a crucial part of the game.

 

[Ambrosia]

Incorrect. Melbourne are 1st for tackles its a great advantage and highly valued by club and supporters alike. Carlton are ranked 15th and really need to address it otherwise they will continue to be uncompetitive in a crucial part of the game.

Surely you understand the difference between total tackles and tackle differentials?

Who would you say is the better tackling side? The team A) averaging 62 tackles and there opponents averaging 60 tackles or team B) Averaging 58 tackles and there opponent averaging 48.

There’s an argument to be made that by making it a contested high tackle game Melbourne are setting up themselves to win due to having some of the best inside players in the comp but they aren’t anything special as tackling side or else they’d be out tackling their opponents by a much more significant margin then 1.5 per game.

 

[Tiger_Of_Old]

Tackling is only half the story.
Turnovers caused by pressure is the other half.

 

[Arr0w]

Incorrect. Melbourne are 1st for tackles its a great advantage and highly valued by club and supporters alike. Carlton are ranked 15th and really need to address it otherwise they will continue to be uncompetitive in a crucial part of the game.

Have another read, differentials, not averages

 

[nineteen eighty]

I don’t think Cripps has ever had the ability to run both ways. It’s just when he was at his peak he was such a dominant inside force it didn’t matter that he was poor defensively.

He's always been inwards focused. Even at his best, he was a "me" player. Not a team player.

IF he got back to his best and IF he changed his game to be team first, the club would improve significantly. Does he have both of these in him? Time will tell.

 

[Cripps 'n' Blue Bloods]

He's always been inwards focused. Even at his best, he was a "me" player. Not a team player.

IF he got back to his best and IF he changed his game to be team first, the club would improve significantly. Does he have both of these in him? Time will tell.

At his best, he was very much a team player.
Part of the problem during his recent slump is that he has been trying to do too much and some of the stuff that he isn't necessarily the best at. I can see how that might be seen as being a 'me' player from an outside perspective, but he's done that (rightly or wrongly) for the team, not to be a one man show or get all the glory. He also played through injury FOR the team.

 

[Ambrosia]

He's always been inwards focused. Even at his best, he was a "me" player. Not a team player.

IF he got back to his best and IF he changed his game to be team first, the club would improve significantly. Does he have both of these in him? Time will tell.

Don’t really think you can claim any evidence of that. The best role for him and the team have always aligned. Carlton have needed him to be a dominant “me” focused footballer.

If his poor form continues Carlton may shift him to another role. Then you’ll have evidence as to whether he’s a team first player.

 

[augie]

Carlton could not have possibly appointed Voss based on his coaching performance at Brisbane.

But my statement that I would not like him to be appointed coach at my club is based on his coaching performance at Brisbane.

One would assume Carlton have appointed Voss based on what he has done since 2014. But loads of prospective coaches would have done similar to Voss over the last 8 years, and I doubt many of them have single handedly presided over the total unravelling of a decent club. From where I sit, that is his point of difference. And it makes him a strange and illogical looking appointment for mine. But the decision was made by the same club who decided to start topping up when they were halfway through a decent rebuild, so I suppose I should not be too surprised.

Seems to me he was appointed based on who he was as a player and not his coaching performance at Brisbane or elsewhere. Carlton had two old style football people control the process and they came up with a decision based on an old style concept of hardness and who would be the "hardest" coach. Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't, but if I was a blues supporter I wouldn't be comfortable with that decision making process.

 

[blue healer]

The best tackling technique in league is around the ankles. That’s not allowed in AFL?

Not sure that you've watched a lot of League lately. Ball and all tackles have been the go to for years now, in fact it has become three players executing ball and all tackle for the last ten years at least.

Ankle tackles were never really the go and usually only happened when the ball carrier was running away from the tackler. Years ago the correct tackle procedure in League was to hit them in the hips but they found that players tackled like that were able to distribute on the way down.

all a result of the tackle count rules when they came in.

 

[Arr0w]

Seems to me he was appointed based on who he was as a player and not his coaching performance at Brisbane or elsewhere. Carlton had two old style football people control the process and they came up with a decision based on an old style concept of hardness and who would be the "hardest" coach. Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't, but if I was a blues supporter I wouldn't be comfortable with that decision making process.

Surprised we never gave it to Robert Harvey

 

[premiershipvigil]

Have another read, differentials, not averages

You've misunderstood again. Averages are very important its highly recognised as a key stat for all clubs. The averages clearly demonstrate a better game plan.

 

[Arr0w]

You've misunderstood again. Averages are very important its highly recognised as a key stat for all clubs. The averages clearly demonstrate a better game plan.

Best you read this again

Opinion - Brian Cook - Carlton's rebuild still has a fair way to go

Agreed regarding pressure is weak in the forward 50, averaging 2 less tackles in the forward 50. So nice of you to agree with a fact that is known by many.

www.bigfooty.com

 

[premiershipvigil]

Best you read this again

Opinion - Brian Cook - Carlton's rebuild still has a fair way to go

Agreed regarding pressure is weak in the forward 50, averaging 2 less tackles in the forward 50. So nice of you to agree with a fact that is known by many.

www.bigfooty.com

From the AFL, fyi:
"TACKLING
Tackling an opponent is an important component of a footballer’s make-up. It can often mean the difference between a goal and a kick that travels off-line."

 

[Arr0w]

From the AFL, fyi:
"TACKLING
Tackling an opponent is an important component of a footballer’s make-up. It can often mean the difference between a goal and a kick that travels off-line."

That's wonderful, unfortunately average numbers don't mean you can't win a flag, you know facts, not theory

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

You've misunderstood again. Averages are very important its highly recognised as a key stat for all clubs. The averages clearly demonstrate a better game plan.

I think you’ve backed the wrong horse he but kudos for sticking with it

 

[Cripps 'n' Blue Bloods]

From the AFL, fyi:
"TACKLING
Tackling an opponent is an important component of a footballer’s make-up. It can often mean the difference between a goal and a kick that travels off-line."

Time to concede the point and move on. It's been categorically proven that there's no correlation between high tackle average or differential when it comes to being a top side.

 

[premiershipvigil]

That's wonderful, unfortunately average numbers don't mean you can't win a flag, you know facts, not theory

All the AFL teams value high tackle numbers: fact.
All AFL teams try to avoid low tackle numbers: fact.
Melbourne have the highest tackle number including highest inside 50: facts.
Carlton have close to the worst tackle numbers in the AFL: fact.

Not sure what your theories are on why you've been so poor at tackling, other than to say its Teague fault /game plan however its clear that tackling has not been what should be at Carlton and therefore its a critical factor that needs to improve to give them a better chance of being more competitive.