Play Nice Bye bye Brad

[Only Forwards]

sustained success

Sustained success?

The weekend before last we lost by 10 goals to the team in 18th.

If we go on some miracle charge in to highend finals I'll forget this.

If we do not make a prelim this year we have regressed from last year and have a team and a coaching staff that continue to allow poor performances where effort is a factor every 6 weeks or so.

It is how it has been and I believe it is how it will continue to be, so is the gospel according to Brad.

 

[Phillyroo]

Sustained success?

The weekend before last we lost by 10 goals to the team in 18th.

If we go on some miracle charge in to highend finals I'll forget this.

If we do not make a prelim this year we have regressed from last year and have a team and a coaching staff that continue to allow poor performances where effort is a factor every 6 weeks or so.

It is how it has been and I believe it is how it will continue to be, so is the gospel according to Brad.

Yeah.... Pretty sure I wrote he is building the team for sustained success... I never claimed we are there yet.
Long way to go. But we haven't traded away a high draft pick under Brad, we have brought in the best coaches available (Gavin Brown and Leigh Tudor) we have drafted Brown, Turner, Fordham, Preuss in late rounds and even rookie drafts that so far look like hits. This season isn't over yet. The talk of going backwards this year may turn out to be correct.... But saying bye bye Brad seems premature to me... My opinion only, sorry for not sharing the opinion of all and sundry in this thread... Except for Wild Bill

 

[Only Forwards]

Yeah.... Pretty sure I wrote he is building the team for sustained success... I never claimed we are there yet.
Long way to go. But we haven't traded away a high draft pick under Brad, we have brought in the best coaches available (Gavin Brown and Leigh Tudor) we have drafted Brown, Turner, Fordham, Preuss in late rounds and even rookie drafts that so far look like hits. This season isn't over yet. The talk of going backwards this year may turn out to be correct.... But saying bye bye Brad seems premature to me... My opinion only, sorry for not sharing the opinion of all and sundry in this thread... Except for Wild Bill

He then built that team for sustained success

Past tense hence the selective quoting.

Philly how do you win a flag?

How has any team won a flag in the last forever?

they take opportunities when they present themselves and play with heart and hardness for the vast majority of weeks in the season.

in his entire tenure we have yet to see even 1 season where we have either a) played consistent hard fought football for the entire H&A or b) been opportunistic when it really mattered.

our best case scenario from where we sit now is to make a prelim from outside the top 4, ie what we did last year.

Never in the history of the current finals structure has a team won a flag from outside the top 4 after the home and away. We are a team that melts, and has melted this year, as recent as two weeks ago, to take this team and win a flag from where we are is 99.999999999999r% impossible.

From where I sit his coaching is barely holding water, and not where we should be. 6 years into a rebuild and more leeway than any coach in the past.

More leeway than any of the North greats that coached our club.

 

[TennisPlayerAndy]

The season is done unless you finish Top 4.

Unless we win the next 8, that isn't happening.

 

[Flawed Genius]

Sustained success is great, and you draft ideally so that you're not shit for years, but the club clearly went for immediate success with the recruitment of Higgins, Dal Santo and Waite, along with the attempted recruitment of Cooney. That had nothing to do with sustained success, given most of those blokes won't be around in 5 years, with the possible exception of Higgins.

 

[DarkPhoenix]

I just laugh at all the posters who have been seduced once again by one performance against mediocre team who hasn't played for three weeks.

Everyone knows that we are ranked at the lower end of most statistics yeah? Our game plan is outdated and easily picked apart and unless that changes then expect more of the same inconsistency.

It's great he dropped LT and placed Boomer as a sub but thing is Boomer admitted on TV he wasn't sticking to structures so why has it takes so long to discipline him? Who does it take a shit load of shitness for the coach to react? He has to change and remain strong with discipline and set higher standards. Players should be dropped for not meeting expectations with structures and intensity.

Lets hope this is not another false dawn but I doubt it.

Not saying the team is fixed. I'm under no illusion that one week of changes and a good win equals a complete turn around.

The teams still shit and we have major issues.

Growing more and more frustrating by the weeks though posters calling for X Y Z to happen and when X Y Z actually happens they can't be happy the club finally did it, they find some way to twist it into a negative.

This board just wants to feed on negativity at the moment and won't be happy with anything less than a complete sacking of the coaching panel.

 

[Thewlis Dish]

I assume every team in the league is aiming to build for sustained success - not sure that's something that is exclusive to some coaches.

Freo have the following players 24 or under who have developed mostly under Lyon:

Neale
Hill
Fyfe
Pearce
Walters
Sutcliffe
Sheridan

St Kilda had the same depth issues under Thomas that they did under Lyon, not sure why Lyon gets criticised for going all in to win a flag when they had 7-8 top-liners. It's an argument based entirely on hindsight.

 

[JB Our Saviour]

Sustained success is great, and you draft ideally so that you're not shit for years, but the club clearly went for immediate success with the recruitment of Higgins, Dal Santo and Waite, along with the attempted recruitment of Cooney. That had nothing to do with sustained success, given most of those blokes won't be around in 5 years, with the possible exception of Higgins.

Yes but those recruits did not cost us anything !!

 

[Thewlis Dish]

Yes but those recruits did not cost us anything !!

Except a list space and salary cap room. Do you think St Kilda is going to go out and recruit a couple of 28-32 year olds because they can get them as a FA?

 

[King Corey]

I'm very happy we got a win, kudos to Brad as senior coach. It was a good even effort game.

However his basic dismissal of Jamie MacMillan / "flying the flag" in subsequent interviews and overly diplomatic take on Selwood reminded me of his less appealing traits once again.

Particularly the MacMillan incident. I'd go as far as saying I loved Jamie's attitude. Absolute Shinboner, willing to fight for his mate. Made me proud to be a North Melbourne supporter. Had he stood back thinking "oh I might give away a free" instead I'd have been disgusted.

I hate that the message from the senior coach down looks to extinguish this very of spirit in the name of a mechanical "above that sort of thing" approach.

 

[Phillyroo]

Except a list space and salary cap room. Do you think St Kilda is going to go out and recruit a couple of 28-32 year olds because they can get them as a FA?

What absolute crap!!!
List space??? Really we carry players on our list every year that just do not play and your claiming list spaces?
Salary cap is clearly no issue for us, we are throwing 5 and 6 year deal offers all over the place!
St Kilda didn't make a prelim last year, they finished last.
Hawthorn, Geelong, Port Adelaide all brought in experienced players to get over the hump, I would have thought that this method is proven.

 

[Only Forwards]

What absolute crap!!!
List space??? Really we carry players on our list every year that just do not play and your claiming list spaces?
Salary cap is clearly no issue for us, we are throwing 5 and 6 year deal offers all over the place!
St Kilda didn't make a prelim last year, they finished last.
Hawthorn, Geelong, Port Adelaide all brought in experienced players to get over the hump, I would have thought that this method is proven.

Right now we are a one hit wonder that came in at fourth on the charts.

nothing more.

 

[hilly]

The last week has been encouraging, but the real test is going to be over the next eight games.

 

[Thewlis Dish]

What absolute crap!!!
List space??? Really we carry players on our list every year that just do not play and your claiming list spaces?
Salary cap is clearly no issue for us, we are throwing 5 and 6 year deal offers all over the place!
St Kilda didn't make a prelim last year, they finished last.
Hawthorn, Geelong, Port Adelaide all brought in experienced players to get over the hump, I would have thought that this method is proven.

If we didn't see ourselves as a potential chance, we wouldn't have recruited Waite and Higgins.

That doesn't make it the wrong decision, but let's not be silly here. We overrated our list.

 

[King Corey]

Except a list space and salary cap room. Do you think St Kilda is going to go out and recruit a couple of 28-32 year olds because they can get them as a FA?

A lot of supporters don't seem to have a grasp on the opportunity cost of a free agent.

Just because you don't give up a draft pick doesn't mean a recruit doesn't cost the club's list health in other ways.

eg - last year we took Jarrad Waite instead of holding an extra pick in the ND. Assuming our next pick would've been circa #53 then you can consider the fact we passed on possible talents like Ed Langdon, Clem Smith, Reece McKenzie et al as one cost of the FA acquisition.

There's also the cost of taking on a player who is likely to absorb more salary cap space and most likely have a shorter time on the list that a successful draftee would have.

I'm all for FA when done right btw but this whole 'didn't cost us anything' mentality is incredibly simplistic.

 

[Phillyroo]

If we didn't see ourselves as a potential chance, we wouldn't have recruited Waite and Higgins.

That doesn't make it the wrong decision, but let's not be silly here. We overrated our list.

Yawn.... Higgins and Waite cost is nothing, we still took all our picks in the draft. We haven't sold our future for immediate success. If Waite goes at the end of next year and we didn't win a flag it doesn't mean we are doomed for the next 10 years.

 

[Thewlis Dish]

Yawn.... Higgins and Waite cost is nothing, we still took all our picks in the draft. We haven't sold our future for immediate success. If Waite goes at the end of next year and we didn't win a flag it doesn't mean we are doomed for the next 10 years.

Do you not understand what I am saying though? You're just making silly strawman arguments.

I'm not saying that they were bad recruiting choices, I am saying that they didn't "cost us nothing" as we gave up the chance at two extra draft picks. We did this because we feel we are within grasp of contending and two ready-made players would likely add more to our current list and this goal than two draftees would.

A team such as St Kilda would likely not have made that choice, as there is no value taking up two list spots on players who aren't going to get them closer to a flag.

No one is saying or has said we have sold our future for free agents, but taking free agents doesn't simply cost nothing for the reasons King Corey outlined above. I have long held the view that recruiting mature players can be an excellent move if you do it right (ie - Hawthorn and Sydney) and it certainly doesn't send your list backwards, but both of those clubs also have a culture in place where young players accelerate their development.

 

[Phillyroo]

Do you not understand what I am saying though? You're just making silly strawman arguments.

I'm not saying that they were bad recruiting choices, I am saying that they didn't "cost us nothing" as we gave up the chance at two extra draft picks. We did this because we feel we are within grasp of contending and two ready-made players would likely add more to our current list and this goal than two draftees would.

A team such as St Kilda would likely not have made that choice, as there is no value taking up two list spots on players who aren't going to get them closer to a flag.

No one is saying or has said we have sold our future for free agents, but taking free agents doesn't simply cost nothing for the reasons King Corey outlined above. I have long held the view that recruiting mature players can be an excellent move if you do it right (ie - Hawthorn and Sydney) and it certainly doesn't send your list backwards, but both of those clubs also have a culture in place where young players' accelerate their development.

I understand what you are saying.... But I don't think that bringing in Higgins and Waite was an issue of over rating our list.... Because of the fact it wasn't a hard decision to make, because it cost us no loss of picks.

 

[Thewlis Dish]

It's like arguing with a five year old.

 

[Orange Peanut]

It's like arguing with a five year old.

Is not!

 

[Phillyroo]

It's like arguing with a five year old.

You are

 

[The Butcher]

What I would really like to see is a couple of further examples from last weekend. Find a couple of players that didn’t do the team thing and remove them. Make these players understand in their gut that it’s not the result but the effort, application and consistency that matter. They need to be powerfully disabused of the notion that a good performance buys them weeks of playing time.

*1000000000000000

Bet methinks Brad used all his courage up in placing the vest on Boomer

 

[Only Forwards]

Yawn.... Higgins and Waite cost is nothing, we still took all our picks in the draft. We haven't sold our future for immediate success. If Waite goes at the end of next year and we didn't win a flag it doesn't mean we are doomed for the next 10 years.

No but what it does mean is that we spent 2 years on a bloke that we could have spent on a kid that could play the next ten years.

 

[Only Forwards]

I understand what you are saying.... But I don't think that bringing in Higgins and Waite was an issue of over rating our list.... Because of the fact it wasn't a hard decision to make, because it cost us no loss of picks.

Why did we bring in Waite?

What purpose does he serve?

end of last year we had BBB and Drew and Black.

What purpose does he serve outside of trying to add experience and consistnecy for a high end finals push?

or are you going to say that the idea of us making high end finals was all on the media?

 

[Flawed Genius]

I understand what you are saying.... But I don't think that bringing in Higgins and Waite was an issue of over rating our list.... Because of the fact it wasn't a hard decision to make, because it cost us no loss of picks.

We thought we had a list capable of or close to being capable of winning a premiership. Instead of drafting two young players (ie, Clem Smith & Reece McKenzie) and further solidifying our future, we chose to top up with Higgins & Waite as we believed those two players would push us closer to a premiership than Smith & McKenzie.

By giving Higgins and Waite (old/immediate) a list spot, we were unable to give Smith & McKenzie a list spot (young/sustained) and therefore cost ourselves further sustained success.

We overrated our list because we thought we were closer to a premiership than we actually were. By overrating our list, we thought adding Higgins & Waite would bring a premiership. It is exceptionally unlikely that we'll win the premiership this year, so we overrated our list.

We didn't lose picks acquiring Higgins & Waite, but we did lose the list spot that could have been given to a first year draftee.