Can GC turn this around?

[Cripptonite]

Firstly, I know my own club has its own issues and I could write all day about them but that's not what this thread is for.

Focusing on the Suns, I really don't see how they ever really had a chance to succeed let alone turn around a sinking ship in a hostile AFL competiton. I see a mixture of poor culture, gross mismanagement over the years (both coaching and list management), almost zero buy-in from players and leaders, poor selection of key personnel (Rodney Eade, all established players recruited from other teams besides maybe Ablett & Harbrow). Most if not all clubs have gone through cycles of these issues and they are eventually addressed with change and hard work.

The biggest factor that has led to the Suns demise however is out of their control. It is the way the AFL system allows players to decide where they want to play. In addition to this, as they have only been around for 7 or 8 years, pretty much no one cares. Certainly no-one with a voice in AFL circles anyway (unless you count Cochrane who everyone just laughs at).

Due to the fact that every player with any talent will have suitors promising success, media attention, opportunities outside football via club powerbrokers, the ability to learn from gun teammates, stability, camaraderie. These are things the Suns just cannot compete with. The successful clubs have fought over the scraps of the Gold Coast corpse (hawthorn with JOM, Geelong with Ablett & Caddy, Richmond with Prestia & Lynch, Melbourne with May etc). Not only this but they are forced to take whatever scraps these clubs bundle together or the alternative is to risk them leaving for nothing. Similar situation to the Go Home 5.

This situation is two-fold as it has made the Suns desperate to land anyone who wants to go there (basically rejects who would otherwise not have a future in the AFL such as GHS, Miles, Ellis & VFL players with the exception being Lachie Weller who they through buckets of cash at). They have to overpay for these players both with Salary cap space & draft picks. To keep any of their promising players, they also have to overpay which is quite alarming as the remaining players have produced next to nothing. This leads to their remarkable salary cap issues.

Yes the Suns have 3 top 6 picks now but they had 4 top 10 picks a few years ago and what difference has it made...

What chance do they have in this environment? Zero IMO. Either the system needs to change or the Suns will die a slow death. I know Brisbane were in a similar situation, but they have history and diehard supporters thanks to Fitzroy & the Lions threepeat. I'm still not as buoyant as everybody else about Brisbane either, they still haven't really done much yet although they are in a much better position than a few years ago. I can see them returning to the bottom after a few years too once guys like Mcluggage and Rayner either get better offers from Victoria or get sick of losing and jump ship. Zorko & Stefan Martin are not far from the end either and Beams has just gone. Maybe I'm a cynic but I hope these AFL battlers along with my own team can beat the system.

 

[pugsville]

.
The biggest factor that has led to the Suns demise however is out of their control. It is the way the AFL system allows players to decide where they want to play. In addition to this, as they have only been around for 7 or 8 years, pretty much no one cares. Certainly no-one with a voice in AFL circles anyway (unless you count Cochrane who everyone just laughs at).

Nope the problem is no one wants to play football at the suns. Where they are leaving to isnt the problem. The Suns have screwed it up badly.

 

[pugsville]

Look at Carlton now, doing very poorly but gee they have the support and structure to fight back and no one doubts that they will not. It’s a no brainer they will be a power again.

There's no guarantee Carlton could never be a power again. I mean look at Melbourne. the 1950s they were a giant of the competition. They survived, and look to be on the up now but they could so easily have been gone like Fitzroy.

Sure the AFL's gun shy about butchering clubs after Fitzroy. But let's not pretend that if the AFL saw a pot of money it would lose any corporate sleep over killing another club.

fact is that a lebourne club look like GCS right now would be lucky to survive. GCS has more AFL support so most likely not.

 

[Podsnap]

They are looking at recruiting Murdoch. Definitely tanking.

 

[The Nostradamus]

Can’t even find a person in a long term contract to captain them

 

[Tandy]

Can’t even find a person in a long term contract to captain them

Touk Miller doesn't seem ready and doesn't even appear to a Maxwell type leader.
Swallow can barely string two words together when speaking to the media.

 

[The Meerkat]

Atm I have zero interest in next year.

I can't see them winning a game or even providing a highlight.

 

[Matchu]

Is it fair to suggest the AFL fell into the trap of closely replicating what happened to the Brisbane Bears when they entered the competition?

1st season: Bears - 13/14, Suns - 17/17
2nd season: Bears - 13/14, Suns - 17/18
3rd season: Bears - 10/14, Suns - 14/18
4th season: Bears - 14/14, Suns - 12/18
5th season: Bears - 15/15, Suns - 16/18
6th season: Bears - 14/15, Suns - 15/18
7th season: Bears - 13/15, Suns - 17/18 (Bears moved to the Gabba and better training facilities, Suns moved out of their demountable facilities and into Comm Games standard facilities)
8th season: Bears - 12/15, Suns - 17/18 (Suns were forced to travel for half of the season and did not have access to their training facilities)
9th season: Bears - 8/16, Suns - ?/18 (Bears make their first ever finals appearance in their 9th season)

Out of curiosity, I decided to look at the Bears' 22 in the 1995 finals to see if it was comparable to the the current (young) Gold Coast list. The names that immediately stood out to me were Jason Akermanis (18y 198d), Nigel Lappin (19y 81d), Chris Scott (19y 130d), Justin Leppitsch (19y 344d) and Michael Voss (20y 65d). The other triple premiership players who competed in that final weren't that old either - Darryl White (22y 90d), Marcus Ashcroft (23y 350d) and Shaun Hart (24y 116d). Obviously this is somewhat similar to the young talent on the Suns' list at the moment with top 10 picks such as Ainsworth (20), Ah Chee (20), Brodie (19), Bowes (20), Martin (23), Wight (21) and players drafted outside of the top 10 who have shown talent like Fiorini (21), Miller (22), Sexton (24) and Weller (22). We also know Gold Coast are about to draft a further three top 6 players who will be 18/19 years old when they debut next year.

Okay so what about players in their physical prime between 25-30? The Bears had six players in that age range in the '95 finals - Adrian Fletcher (25y 335d), Andrew Gowers (26y 152d) Craig Lambert (26y 340d), Richard Champion (27y 149d), Gilbert McAdam (28y 164d) and Scott McIvor (29y 32d). How do the Suns compare? Jarrod Witts (25), Sam Day (26), David Swallow (26) and Rory Thompson (27) should be best 22 players when they are healthy. They also brought in Anthony Miles (26), George Horlin-Smith (26) and Jack Homsch (25) this off season so that probably takes their best 22 players aged between 25-30 to seven.

There were very few 30+ veterans in Brisbane's best 22 at the time - Roger Merrett (35y 133d), Andrew Bews (31y 53d) and Michael McLean (30y 191d) - and that's very similar to the 30+ veterans are who currently best 22 players for the Suns - Michael Rischitelli (33), Jarrod Harbrow (30) and Pearce Hanley (30).


It's an interesting comparison for mine because I can see the similarities in the lists. I'm not suggesting the Suns will play finals in 2019 but I can see the accumulation of talent that will drive the turnaround at the Suns (if they can keep them). Retention was certainly a big issue for both clubs in the early days but the Bears/Lions didn't seem to have anywhere near as much trouble retaining talent when things began to come together for them from 1995 onward.

 

[Shai]

Apologies for posting this guys; thought the subject at present was the GC delisting their best midfielder.

Get used to it, everyone has their own agenda.

Pisses me off to the max when the thread goes so far off topic you don't even realise why you came here in the 1st place.

Firstly, I know my own club has its own issues and I could write all day about them but that's not what this thread is for.

Focusing on the Suns, I really don't see how they ever really had a chance to succeed let alone turn around a sinking ship in a hostile AFL competiton. I see a mixture of poor culture, gross mismanagement over the years (both coaching and list management), almost zero buy-in from players and leaders, poor selection of key personnel (Rodney Eade, all established players recruited from other teams besides maybe Ablett & Harbrow). Most if not all clubs have gone through cycles of these issues and they are eventually addressed with change and hard work.

The biggest factor that has led to the Suns demise however is out of their control. It is the way the AFL system allows players to decide where they want to play. In addition to this, as they have only been around for 7 or 8 years, pretty much no one cares. Certainly no-one with a voice in AFL circles anyway (unless you count Cochrane who everyone just laughs at).

Due to the fact that every player with any talent will have suitors promising success, media attention, opportunities outside football via club powerbrokers, the ability to learn from gun teammates, stability, camaraderie. These are things the Suns just cannot compete with. The successful clubs have fought over the scraps of the Gold Coast corpse (hawthorn with JOM, Geelong with Ablett & Caddy, Richmond with Prestia & Lynch, Melbourne with May etc). Not only this but they are forced to take whatever scraps these clubs bundle together or the alternative is to risk them leaving for nothing. Similar situation to the Go Home 5.

This situation is two-fold as it has made the Suns desperate to land anyone who wants to go there (basically rejects who would otherwise not have a future in the AFL such as GHS, Miles, Ellis & VFL players with the exception being Lachie Weller who they through buckets of cash at). They have to overpay for these players both with Salary cap space & draft picks. To keep any of their promising players, they also have to overpay which is quite alarming as the remaining players have produced next to nothing. This leads to their remarkable salary cap issues.

Yes the Suns have 3 top 6 picks now but they had 4 top 10 picks a few years ago and what difference has it made...

What chance do they have in this environment? Zero IMO. Either the system needs to change or the Suns will die a slow death. I know Brisbane were in a similar situation, but they have history and diehard supporters thanks to Fitzroy & the Lions threepeat. I'm still not as buoyant as everybody else about Brisbane either, they still haven't really done much yet although they are in a much better position than a few years ago. I can see them returning to the bottom after a few years too once guys like Mcluggage and Rayner either get better offers from Victoria or get sick of losing and jump ship. Zorko & Stefan Martin are not far from the end either and Beams has just gone. Maybe I'm a cynic but I hope these AFL battlers along with my own team can beat the system.

You make some good points (highlighted), also some inane comments imo.

Suns have had top picks from the start & where has that landed them.? A team of mostly 'kids' that were burnt out and/or injured b4 they even got a chance.

How many of those former GC players have shown class once they've moved on to another club?

Lions are on the way up again, with good recruiting of both players & staff, Suns can't claim the same.

Maybe they should amalgamate with an established AFL team.

Is it fair to suggest the AFL fell into the trap of closely replicating what happened to the Brisbane Bears when they entered the competition?

1st season: Bears - 13/14, Suns - 17/17
2nd season: Bears - 13/14, Suns - 17/18
3rd season: Bears - 10/14, Suns - 14/18
4th season: Bears - 14/14, Suns - 12/18
5th season: Bears - 15/15, Suns - 16/18
6th season: Bears - 14/15, Suns - 15/18
7th season: Bears - 13/15, Suns - 17/18 (Bears moved to the Gabba and better training facilities, Suns moved out of their demountable facilities and into Comm Games standard facilities)
8th season: Bears - 12/15, Suns - 17/18 (Suns were forced to travel for half of the season and did not have access to their training facilities)
9th season: Bears - 8/16, Suns - ?/18 (Bears make their first ever finals appearance in their 9th season)

Out of curiosity, I decided to look at the Bears' 22 in the 1995 finals to see if it was comparable to the the current (young) Gold Coast list. The names that immediately stood out to me were Jason Akermanis (18y 198d), Nigel Lappin (19y 81d), Chris Scott (19y 130d), Justin Leppitsch (19y 344d) and Michael Voss (20y 65d). The other triple premiership players who competed in that final weren't that old either - Darryl White (22y 90d), Marcus Ashcroft (23y 350d) and Shaun Hart (24y 116d). Obviously this is somewhat similar to the young talent on the Suns' list at the moment with top 10 picks such as Ainsworth (20), Ah Chee (20), Brodie (19), Bowes (20), Martin (23), Wight (21) and players drafted outside of the top 10 who have shown talent like Fiorini (21), Miller (22), Sexton (24) and Weller (22). We also know Gold Coast are about to draft a further three top 6 players who will be 18/19 years old when they debut next year.

Okay so what about players in their physical prime between 25-30? The Bears had six players in that age range in the '95 finals - Adrian Fletcher (25y 335d), Andrew Gowers (26y 152d) Craig Lambert (26y 340d), Richard Champion (27y 149d), Gilbert McAdam (28y 164d) and Scott McIvor (29y 32d). How do the Suns compare? Jarrod Witts (25), Sam Day (26), David Swallow (26) and Rory Thompson (27) should be best 22 players when they are healthy. They also brought in Anthony Miles (26), George Horlin-Smith (26) and Jack Homsch (25) this off season so that probably takes their best 22 players aged between 25-30 to seven.

There were very few 30+ veterans in Brisbane's best 22 at the time - Roger Merrett (35y 133d), Andrew Bews (31y 53d) and Michael McLean (30y 191d) - and that's very similar to the 30+ veterans are who currently best 22 players for the Suns - Michael Rischitelli (33), Jarrod Harbrow (30) and Pearce Hanley (30).


It's an interesting comparison for mine because I can see the similarities in the lists. I'm not suggesting the Suns will play finals in 2019 but I can see the accumulation of talent that will drive the turnaround at the Suns (if they can keep them). Retention was certainly a big issue for both clubs in the early days but the Bears/Lions didn't seem to have anywhere near as much trouble retaining talent when things began to come together for them from 1995 onward.

Harbs is the only 1 named of the vets who actually has kept his value.

 

[WillHayward]

Hope we get to play you Swans twice next year. Was an easy four points last time we met.

Swans V Suns all time:
Played 9
8:1
Swans total score: 936
Suns total score: 522

That is a horror movie.

 

[Cripptonite]

You make some good points (highlighted), also some inane comments imo.

Suns have had top picks from the start & where has that landed them.? A team of mostly 'kids' that were burnt out and/or injured b4 they even got a chance.

How many of those former GC players have shown class once they've moved on to another club?

Lions are on the way up again, with good recruiting of both players & staff, Suns can't claim the same.

Maybe they should amalgamate with an established AFL team.

Out of interest, what are the inane comments I made? Happy to discuss.

Agree, the concessions given to GC have not gotten them far at all. But if they still had Ablett, Lynch, May, O'meara, Prestia, Caddy I think they would be doing much better. The kids would also have these players who are now senior to learn off and provide guidance as role models. I would say that all of the above have shown class at their new clubs (of course Lynch and May haven't played yet).

Not so sure about the lions just yet. Think everyone has jumped the gun declaring them as 2019 big improvers. Remember a few years ago when the same was expected of the saints. Once a team is in the football wilderness it is very hard to escape, they often remain there for many years and there may be many false dawns (my club included). In saying that, good luck to the lions and I hope they deliver on the hype.

The amalgamation comment (whilst I'm sure is tongue in cheek) is unfairly thrown around IMO. The AFL should give them a chance to recover which is almost impossible in the current football environment with Free Agency, Trade requests and salary cap issues I mentioned above. They will require further concessions to properly compete but the alternative which is what really should happen is for the AFL to change the system completely by legislating to help battling clubs retain the players they want to keep. ie- the ability to extend draftee contracts without player consent or providing a mechanism where OOC players can't bend over the clubs they are leaving by requesting a trade to a specific club and forcing them to accept a garbage trade which is better than losing them for nothing in the pre-season draft where in the current day, the player will still end up where they want to go anyway (see Tippett and Luke Ball for examples).

 

[threesixpio]

Can’t believe Kennett was bagged out for saying the Suns management is a joke. They are an absolute clusterf*** of a club - and I support expansion btw

 

[CarloLion]

The biggest issue with a tassie team that no one ever seems to talk about is the go home factor. Would be as bad if not worse than at GWS or GC. Very few young guys would be happy living in Hobart when Melbourne is just across the pond. Would be completely unviable IMO

 

[Socrates2]

Since coming into the comp in 2011 the Suns have finished 17th,17th,14th,12th,16th 15th,17th,17th.Last season the two co-captains walked out of the club , they probably left for less money.Two years ago they traded pick 2 for Lachie Weller .No players want to go there apart from players wanting to resurrect their careers.
If any of this happened at any other club (besides GWS), there would be uproar and board challenges and sackings.Gold Coast have very few supporters and they rarely complain.
At the moment, Gold Coast get multiple top ten draft picks every year, these reluctant teenagers then stay a few years ,and then hope to get traded out. Players like Jack Lukosius (pick 2), Izak Rankine (3) and Ben King (6) must have been pissed off they have to go up there.The top draftees deserve better than to be landed at a hopeless club.Is this experiment which has cost tens of millions of dollars really worth it? Gold Coast town is a tourist town and AFL supporters who live there already have a team.What's the point? See Poll above.

 

[Toump Ass]

LOL.

 

[HTT]

Amazing that they’ve never finished below 17th. They’ve probably been the shittest team overall in their time yet (bar 2011 when there was only 17 clubs) someone has always been shitter than them

 

[kaiserchief13]

Is the sky blue?

 

[Isaac Cumming No 1]

Since coming into the comp in 2011 the Suns have finished 17th,17th,14th,12th,16th 15th,17th,17th.Last season the two co-captains walked out of the club , they probably left for less money.Two years ago they traded pick 2 for Lachie Weller .No players want to go there apart from players wanting to resurrect their careers.
If any of this happened at any other club (besides GWS), there would be uproar and board challenges and sackings.Gold Coast have very few supporters and they rarely complain.
At the moment, Gold Coast get multiple top ten draft picks every year, these reluctant teenagers then stay a few years ,and then hope to get traded out. Players like Jack Lukosius (pick 2), Izak Rankine (3) and Ben King (6) must have been pissed off they have to go up there.The top draftees deserve better than to be landed at a hopeless club.Is this experiment which has cost tens of millions of dollars really worth it? Gold Coast town is a tourist town and AFL supporters who live there already have a team.What's the point? See Poll above.

There's actually no necessity, or significant benefit, in your agreeing tor the long term planning that went into the recent expansion clubs.

There will no reversal in direction.

The most useful thing a Richmond supporter could do is agitate for their club to contribute more. Currently the burden on GWS and GC to expand the game into new territory and benefit everyone by increasing revenue is unfair in my view.

 

[StevenwellerHFC]

Gone very soon.

 

[Rob]

At the moment, yes.

But it can all change pretty quickly if they can get the right people in the right positions.

 

[Socrates2]

There's actually no necessity, or significant benefit, in your agreeing tor the long term planning that went into the recent expansion clubs.

There will no reversal in direction.

The most useful thing a Richmond supporter could do is agitate for their club to contribute more. Currently the burden on GWS and GC to expand the game into new territory and benefit everyone by increasing revenue is unfair in my view.

I don't think other clubs will want to contribute to the Suns.The AFL put a club up there because of the rising population base, but it is a transient population and a rugby area.If they are being propped up because of only TV rights money, then it's just wrong.They could easily being doing the same thing in Tasmania or Darwin.I'm sure Fitzroy and South Melbourne fans aren't too happy as well.

 

[Isaac Cumming No 1]

I don't think other clubs will want to contribute to the Suns.The AFL put a club up there because of the rising population base, but it is a transient population and a rugby area.If they are being propped up because of only TV rights money, then it's just wrong.They could easily being doing the same thing in Tasmania or Darwin.I'm sure Fitzroy and South Melbourne fans aren't too happy as well.

GWS and GC are not responsible for what happened to South Melbourne or Fitzroy long before either were born, obviously.

As it happens I strongly support a team in Tassie but that's a different issue.

 

[juss]

AFL will protect their investment for at least another decade.

 

[kid_a]

It can work, they just need a complete overhaul.
A new revitalised image, new jumpers new logo.
Smarter recruiting and a lot of money thrown at the coaching department. (imho sacking McKenna was a huge mistake, he took the wrap for them falling away in 2014, but look at the injuries that piled up late in that season. Prior to that they were on an upward trajectory....3-19 in 2012, 8-14 in 2013, 10-12 in 2014)
Maybe be creative at expanding their market reach, do pre season training camps in PNG and North QLD.

Footy has a quite a strong presence on the Goldy, their are some strong local clubs (southport, labrador, broadbeach) and a good amount of players there. They need a shake up well and truly but I think its too early to put a line through the Suns, I mean at the end of the day I think we all want the AFL to entrench itself well and truly on the Gold Coast, it would be great for the sport and the league.

 

[Furn2]

Nothing that can't be fixed and no worse than famous Clubs like Carlton and Melbourne have or are going through.