Carlton's list

[Shaneprice97]

Wouldnt mind trading for Bell and Garlett, handy players who could fill a roll for us.

 

[master bate]

deary me ambrose 23 years old avg 12.5 touchs a game, carlisle who is also 23 an has been out of form all year,yes had a ripper year last year but atm middle of the road player like carltons Henderson...
the merretts bro yes are good wingers an half forward players but stars? na
heppell yes a star!

howett,hardingham,melksham,Dempsey,myers there all in there prime an like carltons group not going anywhere near a flag anytime soon, blues have matched the top teams this year, finished on a par with you last year.. just crazy to say bombers list is so much better then blue truth is there both on a par! crap middle of the road going no where

What do you propose Essendon do about it? Gift them 20 first round draft picks?

In fairness to Essendon whilst they deserve it both the performance of the current list and future prospects of the list have been massively impacted by the ASADA business. They are clearly much better than Carlton. They have proper key defenders. Proper rucks. Better old and young midfield stars. And more depth in the kids.

They brought in Goddard and Chapman to have a shot at winning finals now whilst Watson is in his prime but if they did have draft picks they could easily re tool around the spine which is still pretty young and Heppell and Zaharakis.

 

[Fadge]

I still think we have a score group of 8 players (bolded below) we could build a flag winning team around, looking something like this using our current list

B: _______ Jameson ______
HB: Yarren Rowe Buckley
C: Gibbs ________ ________
HF: Thomas Casboult Everitt
F: Garlett Henderson Menzel
R: Warnock Murphy Cripps

With players like Kruezer, Docherty, Johnson, Graham have some value somewhere, whether it be on the ground or on the trade table

Wow. Just wow.

Compare Carlton's nominated 8 above around which you're going to build a premiership against, just as a few examples:
Sydney - Franklin, Tippett, Reid, Parker, Hannebery, Kennedy, Jack, Smith
Gold Coast - Ablett, O'Meara, Bennell, Prestia, Swallow, May, Dixon, Smith
GWS - Cameron, Boyd, Patton, Cognilio, Treloar, Whitfield, Shiel, Kelly

Then, when these clubs get a little strapped, they trade out a gun for a single figure draft pick, managing their list and cap space whilst continuing to play finals ala Geelong, Hawks, Sydney, Pies.

 

[JuddsABlue]

Wow. Just wow.

Compare Carlton's nominated 8 above around which you're going to build a premiership against, just as a few examples:
Sydney - Franklin, Tippett, Reid, Parker, Hannebery, Kennedy, Jack, Smith
Gold Coast - Ablett, O'Meara, Bennell, Prestia, Swallow, May, Dixon, Smith
GWS - Cameron, Boyd, Patton, Cognilio, Treloar, Whitfield, Shiel, Kelly

Then, when these clubs get a little strapped, they trade out a gun for a single figure draft pick, managing their list and cap space whilst continuing to play finals ala Geelong, Hawks, Sydney, Pies.

Well, it would be nice to have COLA, get Kennedy for nothing, and be gifted 20+ first rounders from the AFL because we're building

Not a very good example

The structure I provided still requires massive turnover, there are a lot of names left off that list that are currently playing. It wouldnt be possible to make a bigger turnover. Can we just fire everyone and pick up GWS list? Whats your answer?

We can only bring in so many people per year with the required talent, thus we need to use our best options we currently have to add to that. Thats it above, are you that daft to not be able to see that?

Or is your actual solution to sack the entire playing list of 40+ players and draft 40 new players (I shouldnt be giving you an out here and allow you to say yes to this obvious rhetorical question, because what you wrote was just absolute tripe)

 

[JuddsABlue]

If he plays at the same level he has in the last month he is nowhere near an top 5 power forward. Power forwards kick goals. Levi has kicked 6 goals in the last 4 weeks. Which admittedly is good for him. 9 goals for the year, if he keeps this up he will just fall short of 20 for the year.

In 2014 which you seem to think he is threatening to break out he has only kicked more than 1 goal in a game once, 4 v hawks. In fact that game makes up nearly half his total for the year. This year he has failed to goal in 5 matches and scored 1 in 5 matches. In 2013 he did have a game where he scored more than 1 goal. Had 2 of them in 2012

Your power forward has scored more than 1 goal a game in his career 4 times. Hopefully for Carlton he improves but he is no where threatening the level you are painting for him.

I think he is, based off his marking ability. Its a harder stat to throw around than goals, but hes still playing in the ruck as well and fairly up the ground

My plan would be to have Kruezer playing in the second ruck and Casboult spend all his time up forward, creating more marks and kicking more goals. At the moment playing as the second ruck he doesnt get all the opportunities the premier forwards in the comp do.

But like I said, hes not there yet, I'm not trying to say he is, I'm just saying with his marking ability and his set shot improving, hes capable of the output that other power forwards are

 

[Fadge]

Well, it would be nice to have COLA, get Kennedy for nothing, and be gifted 20+ first rounders from the AFL because we're building

Not a very good example

The structure I provided still requires massive turnover, there are a lot of names left off that list that are currently playing. It wouldnt be possible to make a bigger turnover. Can we just fire everyone and pick up GWS list? Whats your answer?

We can only bring in so many people per year with the required talent, thus we need to use our best options we currently have to add to that. Thats it above, are you that daft to not be able to see that?

Or is your actual solution to sack the entire playing list of 40+ players and draft 40 new players (I shouldnt be giving you an out here and allow you to say yes to this obvious rhetorical question, because what you wrote was just absolute tripe)

Sorry for using those three clubs as examples, but unfortunately that's the reality of what we're all competing against for the next five years.

You're saying there's light at the end of the tunnel, I'm saying Carlton are ****ed for the foreseeable future as a result of some very poor list management decisions over the past 6 or 7 years.

 

[JuddsABlue]

Henderson in bold at full forward? Surely he plays his best footy in defence.

Here's what I'd like to see Carlton line up as next week:

B Buckley Jamison Simpson
HB Yarran Henderson Carrazzo
C Thomas Gibbs Walker
HF Judd Casboult Everitt
F Robinson Kreuzer Menzel
R Warnock Murphy Bell
Int Cripps Docherty Graham Sub Holman

He is a really good defender yes, I wouldnt protest to him playing there. I even suggest this on the Carlton board and get shot down in flames, I suggest he plays forward here and I get told hes a defender

I shouldnt have bolded him there, but where ever he plays it'll be his spot to build around, so if he switch him to back for Rowe than thats fine, we need a forward. But Rowe has improved a lot this year so deserves a long stint in that position

Walker has to play forward, hes the worst actual defender I've seen. Hes good at going forward, but left really wanting as a defender. There are more talented players out there that we can use his spot for imo

The players I bolded wont be there in our future, and these are the spots we need to find talent for. If all of those spots can be filled with players that serve the purposes that we lack, then we can build a team capable of winning a flag

 

[JuddsABlue]

Sorry for using those three clubs as examples, but unfortunately that's the reality of what we're all competing against for the next five years.

You're saying there's light at the end of the tunnel, I'm saying Carlton are ****ed for the foreseeable future as a result of some very poor list management decisions over the past 6 or 7 years.

That may be true, but what else can we do but try?

 

[carl m]

Pretty sure Murphy & Judd would be considered A Grader. Murphy in particular.

No he isn't.. his a downhill skier..

 

[master bate]

B: Touhy Jameson/Rowe ______
HB: Yarran Henderson Docherty
C: Gibbs ________ ________
HF: Thomas _______ _______
F: Garlett ________ Menzel
R: Warnock ______ Murphy
Int: Casboult/Kreuzer Cripps Everitt Robinson

That's my take.

2 high quality mids so that you have a fab 4, almost every team that wins a flag has 3 or 4 elite mids at the time of the premiership. You have Gibbs and Murphy and Cripps is just way too early to tell. Definitely need a 3rd tall defender who can play both ways. I'm not convinced on Warnock but lesser rucks have won flags but they are usually harder than Warnock. I think Casboult at 24 and 199cm and a big lad will always be suited to being the second ruck who would play really well behind 2 key forwards which is the main thing you lack. 1 gun key forward and then another tall or even mid sizer who compliments the second ruck and the gun forward and you are looking on the up.

Do a Hawthorn in 2004 and a Franklin, Roughead, Lewis, Sewell and Birchall and the rest will take care of itself!

The problem is high end talent. Cripps might be 1. Your first and second round picks this year could be 2 and 3. Trading Kreuzer, Walker, Waite might net some kind of pick upgrades that finds a quality player. But if you don't find them soon then by the time they develop the likes of Murphy, Henderson and Gibbs will be way passed their prime.

For too many years you haven't been adding anything of quality after first round picks and then with Watson, Lucas and Bootsma you whiffed on first round picks as well. To turn it around quick enough to challenge in the next 5 or so years it's going to take something special.

Free agency is the new piece of the puzzle that means if you get it right and everything is looking good you can quickly add in that 1 class player you are missing but I still think it's going to be a mighty effort to find and develop the 2 top class mids and 1 key forward at least.

 

[doppleganger]

He could be one of the best contested marks in the competition, a trait thats rarely seen. Has the body to be a monster, just needs to improve (note that he already has improved leaps and bounds this season to be fairly reliable from a long distance) his kicking to an elite level and how could you not say hes a premier power forward?

Ideally he could lose some weight to gain more agility, but his output this year cant really be questioned can it? "Smell the roses" isnt really an argument is it? If he plays at the level he has the last month, hes easily top 5 power forwards in the competition.

LoL the Casboult can clunk a few contested marks therefore he is an elite CHF line, haven't seen that since 2012!!

Think it was MonkeyKing who was trotting out excuse after excuse for Carlton missing the finals that Casboult avg in top5 for contested marks in 2012 and was a big loss to the blues that year.

Casboult is another who hasn't developed, he is the same player as he was in 2012.

 

[JuddsABlue]

Casboult is another who hasn't developed, he is the same player as he was in 2012.

Absurdly incorrect

He is incredibly more advanced than he was 2 years ago

 

[JuddsABlue]

That's my take.

2 high quality mids so that you have a fab 4, almost every team that wins a flag has 3 or 4 elite mids at the time of the premiership. You have Gibbs and Murphy and Cripps is just way too early to tell. Definitely need a 3rd tall defender who can play both ways. I'm not convinced on Warnock but lesser rucks have won flags but they are usually harder than Warnock. I think Casboult at 24 and 199cm and a big lad will always be suited to being the second ruck who would play really well behind 2 key forwards which is the main thing you lack. 1 gun key forward and then another tall or even mid sizer who compliments the second ruck and the gun forward and you are looking on the up.

Do a Hawthorn in 2004 and a Franklin, Roughead, Lewis, Sewell and Birchall and the rest will take care of itself!

The problem is high end talent. Cripps might be 1. Your first and second round picks this year could be 2 and 3. Trading Kreuzer, Walker, Waite might net some kind of pick upgrades that finds a quality player. But if you don't find them soon then by the time they develop the likes of Murphy, Henderson and Gibbs will be way passed their prime.

For too many years you haven't been adding anything of quality after first round picks and then with Watson, Lucas and Bootsma you whiffed on first round picks as well. To turn it around quick enough to challenge in the next 5 or so years it's going to take something special.

Free agency is the new piece of the puzzle that means if you get it right and everything is looking good you can quickly add in that 1 class player you are missing but I still think it's going to be a mighty effort to find and develop the 2 top class mids and 1 key forward at least.

Yes our drafting has been pretty terrible, Menz and Buckley our only real finds based on what we've seen, but we know nothing of the guys we drafted last year so who knows

I'll enjoy watching us draft this year, and hopefully in 4 years those highlighted players are just keys in the cog surrounded by a bunch of names we havent heard yet

 

[Monkey King]

Carlton has fielded more experienced line-ups in each of their reasonable five losses.

Brisbane 13 players with less than 50 games v Carlton with 7
Geelong 8 players with less than 50 games v Carlton with 5
Hawthorn 8 players with less than 50 games v Carlton with 7
GWS 16 players with less than 50 games v Carlton with 5
Collingwood 9 players with less than 50 games v Carlton with 5

Wow! Hawthorn had one extra player with less than 50 games experience. So that's a guy like Cheney, who is older but has played 27 games less than Touhy. Shocking stuff! And Geelong had a whole 3 more. Just stunning! Meanwhile guys like Buckley & Bell, who would be welcome additions to the Carlton side, were sitting on the sidelines injured. You put more credence on this (27 games for example) than I do when looking 5 years to the future.

For a list that's "farked", we actually ran pretty well with those top sides.

Carlton are easily five years behind young developing teams like BL, GWS and Melbourne as they are not playing any good young kids yet...ie Carlton are yet to bottom out and actually play kids ahead of battlers

Carlton are farked.

I reckon you're way off track with this. Certainly the team and list have issues, but even then we've been running decent sides to the wire. We've a solid mid-aged group, a handful of key players in the older group and a light-on younger group. In two years this dynamic could be completely different, with young guys like Graham, Cripps, Holman, Sheehan, Giles etc stepping up into the young or mid-aged group, a solid section of mid-aged players still being in the peak 25-28 group and few good mid-aged players moving into the older group - add to this perhaps a couple of years of top picks and a free agent or two from money cleared by older players retiring.

To claim something as "easily 5 years" anything is just nothing more than overrating your ability to see that far ahead.

 

[doppleganger]

Absurdly incorrect

He is incredibly more advanced than he was 2 years ago

In what regard??

He was kicking more goals in 2012
Taking more contested marks in 2012
Taking more marks inside 50 in 2012
Winning more hit outs in 2012

Only thing doing better is kicking straighter...

As in 2012 he avg 1.2 goals 2.0 behinds per game, compared to 2014 where he is 0.8 goals 0.6 behinds.

One good game against Hawthorn, when Hawthorn were missing all their KPDs, does not make a good season.

 

[Monkey King]

Think it was MonkeyKing who was trotting out excuse after excuse for Carlton missing the finals that Casboult avg in top5 for contested marks in 2012 and was a big loss to the blues that year.

In 2012? Casboult? Err ... Carlton had the worst run of injury in the league in 2012. Doubtful I ever focused on Casboult.

Casboult is another who hasn't developed, he is the same player as he was in 2012.

An advertisement that you need to watch more footy before you can comment with any accuracy.

 

[doppleganger]

Wow! Hawthorn had one extra player with less than 50 games experience. So that's a guy like Cheney, who is older but has played 27 games less than Touhy. Shocking stuff! And Geelong had a whole 3 more. Just stunning! Meanwhile guys like Buckley & Bell, who would be welcome additions to the Carlton side, were sitting on the sidelines injured. You put more credence on this (27 games for example) than I do when looking 5 years to the future.

For a list that's "farked", we actually ran pretty well with those top sides.

The % show that the older more experienced sides tend to win more games. Carlton are bucking that trend.

Sure you had two blokes you could bring in - Caddy, Vardy, Menzel, Kersten would be handy additions for the cats.

Point is even clubs pushing for top4 are playing more inexperienced players than Carlton...how are Carlton going to overtake them when they have more kids and better senior players??

I reckon you're way off track with this. Certainly the team and list have issues, but even then we've been running decent sides to the wire. We've a solid mid-aged group, a handful of key players in the older group and a light-on younger group. In two years this dynamic could be completely different, with young guys like Graham, Cripps, Holman, Sheehan, Giles etc stepping up into the young or mid-aged group, a solid section of mid-aged players still being in the peak 25-28 group and few good mid-aged players moving into the older group - add to this perhaps a couple of years of top picks and a free agent or two from money cleared by older players retiring.

To claim something as "easily 5 years" anything is just nothing more than overrating your ability to see that far ahead.

Fair call, trying to put a timeline on something is a pointless exercise...how bout Carlton are the club who IMHO are in the worst position in terms of their list.

 

[Monkey King]

In what regard??

He was kicking more goals in 2012
Taking more contested marks in 2012
Taking more marks inside 50 in 2012
Winning more hit outs in 2012

Only thing doing better is kicking straighter...

As in 2012 he avg 1.2 goals 2.0 behinds per game, compared to 2014 where he is 0.8 goals 0.6 behinds.

Stat watching will always be inferior to game watching.

So Levi kicked more goals in 2012 - no, he actually didn't. He averaged more (one goal more from every 2-3 games) from a small sample size of 6 games and was playing closer to goal.

Taking more contested marks in 2012. About one less every second or third game, while taking more marks overall - and less marks inside 50 - because he is playing a different role, getting on his bike more and taking marks upfield. His park marking ability has actually improved - if you watch games, instead of stats, this is obvious.

More hitouts in 2012, because he played more in the ruck. In his first game he was our only ruckman.

And yes, his set shot kicking has improved, but it's not the only thing that's improved. He gets involved in the play a lot more and impacts games more with his disposal, gets more touches playing upfield, puts more pressure on the opposition, lays more tackles. He is a far more rounded player than in 2012.

 

[doppleganger]

In 2012? Casboult? Err ... Carlton had the worst run of injury in the league in 2012. Doubtful I ever focused on Casboult.

An advertisement that you need to watch more footy before you can comment with any accuracy.

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/carlton-2013-predictions.979918/page-15

Here is some mindless dribble from you in pre-season 2013 where you try to mount a case that Casboult is just a touch behind Cloke in as power contested marking gun forward....as his stats were great. him and Waite perfectly suited to MMs game plan.

Fast forward to 2014 and no improvement, Casboult is no longer top5 in contested mark stats!! And his personal stats comparison from 2014 are worse than 2012.

I guess you can only use stats when it suits you ay Monkey, when it doesn't throw out the 'how bout you watch more footy' line.

 

[JuddsABlue]

In what regard??

He was kicking more goals in 2012
Taking more contested marks in 2012
Taking more marks inside 50 in 2012
Winning more hit outs in 2012

Only thing doing better is kicking straighter...

As in 2012 he avg 1.2 goals 2.0 behinds per game, compared to 2014 where he is 0.8 goals 0.6 behinds.

One good game against Hawthorn, when Hawthorn were missing all their KPDs, does not make a good season.

Monkey addressed this in his response so no need to do it again, but as he said the avg goals means nothing over the small sample and his marking and impact on the game has improved, including his ruck work and is playing more up the ground and impacting more contests

 

[Monkey King]

Point is even clubs pushing for top4 are playing more inexperienced players than Carlton...how are Carlton going to overtake them when they have more kids and better senior players??

I find your split of less than 50 games and then the rest as a very narrow understanding of the state of a list. As I said earlier, there is no doubt issues with the team, and issues with the list at Carlton. Personally though, I think given the team issues, there's probably more improvement from within the team personnel wise than from the clubs you're talking about that are pushing for top four.

Fair call, trying to put a timeline on something is a pointless exercise...how bout Carlton are the club who IMHO are in the worst position in terms of their list.

That's your opinion. In my opinion I don't think so at all. I think that's just a knee jerk reaction to some crappy results this year. Take the Lions as an example. If you think their list is in better shape than Carlton's today, then bugger me.

And that's not even taking into consideration the dynamism of list improvement. Some young guys who look good today for example aren't going to come on as expected, while others who are unknown today will step up in a big way. Your take seems far more linear and static than mine.

 

[Monkey King]

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/carlton-2013-predictions.979918/page-15

Here is some mindless dribble from you in pre-season 2013 where you try to mount a case that Casboult is just a touch behind Cloke in as power contested marking gun forward....as his stats were great. him and Waite perfectly suited to MMs game plan.

Hmmm. Let's stick with what I did say, rather than some bastardized interpretation. "Based on his performances at AFL level thus far, he's only a touch off Cloke in his ability to take a contested mark." Yep! It was a pretty accurate assessment. It's fair to say he's gone passed Cloke now too in this regard.

Of course none of this is anything like what you were claiming in your other post.

Same with this "perfectly suited to MM's game plan" crap. Someone said the boundary line play wouldn't cut it because Carlton had no talls who could take a mark. I was pointing out that Waite and Casboult were among the best contested marks in the league so "in the context of whether Carlton may or may not be suitable for a boundary line tactic, it's quite an important factor to take note of". And I can tell you right now, it's not lack of contested marking along the boundary line that's been Carlton's problem.

Fast forward to 2014 and no improvement, Casboult is no longer top5 in contested mark stats!! And his personal stats comparison from 2014 are worse than 2012.

You are wrong. Just so embarrassingly wrong. He is taking more marks overall and less contested because he's a better player, with better running patterns, getting up the ground more and clear of his opponent and more involved in general play, having more impact. Yes, he is takinga whole 0.4 less contested marks p/game (WOW), but his power marking in packs is even better than it was back in 2012. Perhaps it's CD's definition of a 'contested mark' that's throwing you off here. I think the commentators the other night noted he's one of the best contested marks in the comp.

 

[thetradesman]

Casboult has improved, but he's still very average.

 

[etsal1]

Casboult has improved, but he's still very average.

For a rookie pick he doesn't have to be the best forward or even top 10.

But a certain top 10 pick forward might want to get his act together at punt road, because Levi hasn't been omitted this year.

 

[doppleganger]

Monkey addressed this in his response so no need to do it again, but as he said the avg goals means nothing over the small sample and his marking and impact on the game has improved, including his ruck work and is playing more up the ground and impacting more contests

LoL avg goals means nothing due to the sample size, but Monkey can go on a thread killing rant about his contested mark avg from the same sample size!!

He is impacting the game more by winning less contested possessions, taking less contested marks, winning less HOs, having less inside 50s, taking less marks inside 50 and is less of a scoring threat than he was in 2012.