Carlton's list

[Effes]

You see, I can see why Malthouse wanted Thomas. It made perfect sense for what I saw of a character we were totally devoid of.

I saw Thomas encourage and stay at close quarters with the kids through the pre-season......A peer that made Buckley and Johnson etc walk taller.
That alone won't be and will never be seen from the outside as a reason to pay someone 625K a year and nor should it be because it's simply an intangible but there is a difference.

I guess if we can't see it, then it doesn't exist.

I don't doubt what you are saying re leadership qualities, but the price was too high.

 

[Gone Critical]

I think there's a few more steps between "bone fide established player" and "the clock is ticking". For me, "the clock is ticking" is reserved for players who really need to show something soon or they're out the door. Casboult doesn't fit that mold at all. He is showing something and has been an improving player in an area of need. It's either a silly comment, or a silly interpretation; either way ... it's still silly.



Unless Carlton pull a couple of KPF's out of their butt, if Levi kept kicking 20 goals a season, taking 120 marks or so, 40 of them contested and contributing in the ruck, I couldn't see him being delisted. But the thing is, he hasn't plateaued. Perhaps if he does, two years down the track you can start using your "the clock is ticking" comment without it looking out of place.

Think you have gone a little strong on the "clock is ticking". My explanation of what I meant by it is that Casboult still has more to do til he is fully established on your list. His current output isn't enough in the longer term. No biggie , think you have read more into the comment than I meant by it

 

[Monkey King]

Think you have gone a little strong on the "clock is ticking" ... No biggie , think you have read more into the comment than I meant by it

It wasn't an appropriate phrase for Levi's situation no matter how you spin it. I accept what you say you meant by it - no he's still not established - but the way you chose to express that sentiment was way off and far less benign, perhaps exposing the tendency for unwarranted negativity being directed towards Casboult in this thread. Maybe better to just say what you mean.

 

[Fadge]

I don't doubt what you are saying re leadership qualities, but the price was too high.

Daniel Cross has great leadership qualities, and I suggest Melbourne aren't paying him between $600K and $700K a year.

 

[HARKER]

I don't doubt what you are saying re leadership qualities, but the price was too high.

For current output? Absolutely.

Thomas wasn't expected to play until half-way through the year when we picked him up.
The best of Thomas is worth 625K. Question is, "Will be see that best again?"

 

[Old Dark Blues]

It does, doesn't it?

No need though if honest discussion is the objective.

Sorry Harker - but this is my ENTIRE GRIPE - no one wants to rip into Malthouse - he has an outstanding career, nor Ratten and certainly not the players.

You hang around with them and you feel terrible knowing what someone has posted about them.

However the point is that there is ENTIRELY no honest discussion regarding Carlton - none.

We are NOT EVEN ALLOWED TO DISCUSS what is being discussed on Carltons board on other boards - can you believe that ?

Right now the belief is that Mick had one of the great AFL coaching tenures at Collingwood - the guy had one flag in over a decade. He had an incredible list at the Eagles - you would be hard pressed NOT to have won a flag with that list - between Doggies, Pies, and Blues he's won ONE FLAG in 20 years of coaching.


No - seriously - 20 years between those three clubs.

His entire MYSTIQUE comes from his tenure at the Weagles when he walked into a club with the players like Brennan, Lamb, Lewis, Mainwaring, Worsfold, Hart, Langdon, McKenna, Waterman, Pyke, Sumich, Kemp, Matera, Wilson, Heady etc, etc already there - set to go....

His coaching record between those three clubs is 52-53% - that puts him around Neil Craig, Ayres, Connolly or Eade.

His coaching record at Pies was around 51% That puts him about even with Ratten.

That's it. The West Coast years at around 64% - when he walked into one of the greatest playing teams ever assembled distort his entire career. Massively. It is an outlying extremity which in any statistical analysis would be adjusted out.

Footscray was again around 49% - same as at Carlton, same as at Collingwood.

West Coast was an anomaly to the rest of his career. Take this extremity out of the equation, and his record is incredibly dodgey -poor. Around the Mark Bickley level - no I'm not even kidding - that's where he is at.

 

[HARKER]

It may have more to do with your style than for what you may have to say Old Dark Blues

As with the club, sometimes you have to look from within.
Not quite sure which part of my post you find need to attack..........attack.......I see your problem, don't you?

 

[doppleganger]

I agree with the rest of your post, but the bold part is a bit silly. Casboult was rookie listed as your classic project player. Spent the first couple of years getting rid of his puppy fat and was always going to take longer than your average draftee. It's just his third season of exposure to senior footy and he's played less than 30 games. Given the signs he's showing, coupled with Carlton's lack of KPF's, he'll be given time.

It's a bit strange I must say.

I wasn't being critical of Casboult, it was about the fact he was singled out as a player who has developed under MM, and IMO his improvement has been marginal...he is still very much a raw big man with basically one good skill, the ability to clunk a big mark.

 

[doppleganger]

Took Carlton from no finals in seven years to finals within one year.

It's ASTONISHING the re-writing of history that is going on merely to serve a cognitive bias.

Ratten was screwed over, everyone in the football world KNOWS it.

Right now, no matter what anyone says, the facts are undeniable, Malthouse is performing like garbage.

He might pick up - who knows, but right now. Nope.

Two senior coaches have been screwed in recent years, both the result of underperformance which can very much be put down to disastrous injury runs.

M.Harvey had Fremantle back playing good footy in 2010, but then 2011 was a train wreck due to injury...he was shafted when Freo went out and poached a big name coach R.Lyon, harsh on Harvey but Freo went for a bloke who they thought could make them a premiership contender. R.Lyon has since turned Freo into a powerhouse and plenty of the Freo list have improved under Ross.

B.Ratten had restored respectability to Carlton with good seasons culminating in the close SF loss in 2011, plenty of optimism that the Blues would continue their climb and be a top4 club over the next couple of seasons.....2012 injuries struck hard and Carlton limped to a 11-11 record, Ratten was given the flick and Carlton happy to trumpet Malthouse as the big name coach who would make the difference and make Carlton a premiership contender. Carlton since floundered and are back to where they were pre-Ratten.

At the end of 2011....Carlton fans would have thought they were absolutely streets ahead of Fremantle, with a good young list and a few years challenging for a flag ahead.

But now it is all Ratten's fault.

 

[KnaveyBlue]

But now it is all Ratten's fault.

It's not entirely his fault, but it's certainly a big part.

The McLean trade was his baby, our drafting and the players we targeted under his tenure was downright awful, VFL-standard players were getting big contracts...

There's no denying Malthouse hasn't got the best out of our list, but people have to admit he was behind the 8-ball from he beginning. Probably more so than he realised coming into the job.

 

[JohnnyFontane90]

Right now the belief is that Mick had one of the great AFL coaching tenures at Collingwood - the guy had one flag in over a decade. He had an incredible list at the Eagles - you would be hard pressed NOT to have won a flag with that list - between Doggies, Pies, and Blues he's won ONE FLAG in 20 years of coaching.

Just ask ross lyon how easy flags are to win. so in 11 years he went to 4 grand finals and that was including that 05 period when they bottomed out and he totally rebuilt that team which was within a kick of the grand final by 07.

now I don't think carltons squad is particularly suited to micks style. we simply don't have the marking power. but as he showed at Collingwood he is capable of rebuilding a team moulded in his style and having it finals competitive in a very short amount of time.

 

[JohnnyFontane90]

Two senior coaches have been screwed in recent years, both the result of underperformance which can very much be put down to disastrous injury runs.

M.Harvey had Fremantle back playing good footy in 2010, but then 2011 was a train wreck due to injury...he was shafted when Freo went out and poached a big name coach R.Lyon, harsh on Harvey but Freo went for a bloke who they thought could make them a premiership contender. R.Lyon has since turned Freo into a powerhouse and plenty of the Freo list have improved under Ross.

B.Ratten had restored respectability to Carlton with good seasons culminating in the close SF loss in 2011, plenty of optimism that the Blues would continue their climb and be a top4 club over the next couple of seasons.....2012 injuries struck hard and Carlton limped to a 11-11 record, Ratten was given the flick and Carlton happy to trumpet Malthouse as the big name coach who would make the difference and make Carlton a premiership contender. Carlton since floundered and are back to where they were pre-Ratten.

At the end of 2011....Carlton fans would have thought they were absolutely streets ahead of Fremantle, with a good young list and a few years challenging for a flag ahead.

But now it is all Ratten's fault.

no fremantle had an outstanding list. the most dominant ruckman we've ever seen, one of the greatest forwards in his era in Pav and one of the greatest CHBs of his era in Mcpharlin. those are 3 difficult pieces and they had A+ talent in all those areas for a long time. Harvey managed to get it together for a short period of time, but overall that team dramatically underperformed under his tenure. with those kind of players you should be perennial finals contender. he had to go.

ratten was a little bit harder done by but I think the view is that 2011 is when everything went right, as opposed to 2012 when everything went wrong. and that 2012 was a closer reflection on where we were and 2011 was the abomination. in 2012 there was a 50pt loss to port who were a basket case at the time, and a big loss to the suns who were also non-competitive and we had beaten by 120 the year before.

 

[Old Dark Blues]

Just ask ross lyon how easy flags are to win. so in 11 years he went to 4 grand finals and that was including that 05 period when they bottomed out and he totally rebuilt that team which was within a kick of the grand final by 07.

now I don't think carltons squad is particularly suited to micks style. we simply don't have the marking power. but as he showed at Collingwood he is capable of rebuilding a team moulded in his style and having it finals competitive in a very short amount of time.

As I CLEARLY stated he has one of the poorest win loss records of the modern era at Collingwood for any major coach - so FALSE. He BARELY won more than half his games (51%) - that is an indictment on his time at the pies.

A successful coach should be running around 60% + That's the difference - it's that 10% between the successful coaches and the failures.

Ross Lyon ? He has a 65% win loss ratio - exactly.

This is the type of ratio you need to get to the top. NOT 50%.

Micks had one of the longest careers of all time - his stats are there, we can see his track record - you take out the exception of West Coast - and it goes downhill.

I really hope he can perform a miracle and work entirely against his track record, and overcome his terrible current form which is amongst the worst in the AFL right now. That would be great - but - I am only stating the facts. Where he is, and where he has been based on historical facts and data.

 

[doppleganger]

no fremantle had an outstanding list. the most dominant ruckman we've ever seen, one of the greatest forwards in his era in Pav and one of the greatest CHBs of his era in Mcpharlin. those are 3 difficult pieces and they had A+ talent in all those areas for a long time. Harvey managed to get it together for a short period of time, but overall that team dramatically underperformed under his tenure. with those kind of players you should be perennial finals contender. he had to go.

At end of 2011, Carlton fans were very happy with their list, not many would have preferred to be in Freo's position.

ratten was a little bit harder done by but I think the view is that 2011 is when everything went right, as opposed to 2012 when everything went wrong. and that 2012 was a closer reflection on where we were and 2011 was the abomination. in 2012 there was a 50pt loss to port who were a basket case at the time, and a big loss to the suns who were also non-competitive and we had beaten by 120 the year before.

2012 was the closer reflection on where Carlton was at, when you went 11-11 with a horrible injury run??

All of a sudden everything going wrong under Ratten doesn't look so bad!

 

[James44]

The issue for Malthouse now is he is 60.

At Collingwood, he had the luxury of the league's most extensive recruiting network, he had Hine, universally regarded as one of the best recruiters in the business and a development program that has seen Collingwood not miss the finals since 2005 and only one club has had more Top 4 finishes in that time being Geelong.

At Carlton, player development is a concern, he doesn't have the extensive recruiting network and there is a dysfunctional football admin and divided board.

 

[JohnnyFontane90]

As I CLEARLY stated he has one of the poorest win loss records of the modern era at Collingwood for any major coach - so FALSE. He BARELY won more than half his games (51%) - that is an indictment on his time at the pies.

A successful coach should be running around 60% + That's the difference - it's that 10% between the successful coaches and the failures.

Ross Lyon ? He has a 65% win loss ratio - exactly.

This is the type of ratio you need to get to the top. NOT 50%.

Micks had one of the longest careers of all time - his stats are there, we can see his track record - you take out the exception of West Coast - and it goes downhill.

I really hope he can perform a miracle and work entirely against his track record, and overcome his terrible current form which is amongst the worst in the AFL right now. That would be great - but - I am only stating the facts. Where he is, and where he has been based on historical facts and data.

I only look at his Collingwood tenure when evaluating his ability as coach now because the game is so different that pre2000 it might as well have been another sport. the difference is when ross lyon saw st Kilda on the downward spiral he jumped ship and went to another contender. mick stayed at Collingwood after their window closed and built them up to their next window (which explains that lower w-l record). can't imagine ross lyon's record would be any better if he'd stayed at st Kilda. he cant work miracles but he's been shown to consistently get the best out of whoever plays under him. and that's all that can be asked...

 

[HARKER]

At end of 2011, Carlton fans were very happy with their list, not many would have preferred to be in Freo's position.

And every right to feel so, by far and large.

Problem was that we didn't trade to advantage and handed out contracts to the likes of Joseph, Collins, Davies etc.
We effectively tied our own hands for two years rendering ourselves non-players in the off-season in 2011 and 2012.

2013 comes along and we had to move on 11 players, some that were stubbornly held onto through the previous regime.

Ross Lyon was criticized for sitting on his stock and not turning it over. How can Ratten then not be?

 

[Old Dark Blues]

I only look at his Collingwood tenure when evaluating his ability as coach now because the game is so different that pre2000 it might as well have been another sport. the difference is when ross lyon saw st Kilda on the downward spiral he jumped ship and went to another contender. mick stayed at Collingwood after their window closed and built them up to their next window (which explains that lower w-l record). can't imagine ross lyon's record would be any better if he'd stayed at st Kilda. he cant work miracles but he's been shown to consistently get the best out of whoever plays under him. and that's all that can be asked...

Again - which is false.

You can go on about the game, and all kinds of qualitative assumptions and vague notions - but the stats are there - I have broken it down.

His record is about that of Rattens. Ratten was shafted - Mick has been given over 20 years to deliver a single flag at three non-franchise clubs......

No - the game has not changed that much. Watch some old games.

 

[James44]

Ross Lyon was criticized for sitting on his stock and not turning it over. How can Ratten then not be?

I think one thing that has been evident at Carlton this year is how dysfunctional the club is. You have a board who has 2 defined factions, Mathieson & Pratt.

There have also been issues in the recruiting dept.

If you have a divided club and a dysfunctional football dept. it's hard for any coach to succeed.

 

[KnaveyBlue]

... handed out contracts to the likes of Joseph, Collins, Davies etc.

 

[JohnnyFontane90]

Again - which is false.

You can go on about the game, and all kinds of qualitative assumptions and vague notions - but the stats are there - I have broken it down.

His record is about that of Rattens. Ratten was shafted - Mick has been given over 20 years to deliver a single flag at three non-franchise clubs......

No - the game has not changed that much. Watch some old games.

that's the thing about stats, they don't lie but if you don't look at the context they can leave out a whole lot of the story...

 

[HARKER]

I think one thing that has been evident at Carlton this year is how dysfunctional the club is. You have a board who has 2 defined factions, Mathieson & Pratt.

There have also been issues in the recruiting dept.
If you have a divided club and a dysfunctional football dept. it's hard for any coach to succeed.

Sadly that has more than an ounce of truth to it.
The CFC aren't exactly what one may call a united club right now.

From what I know the football department isn't exactly dysfunctional but with enough meddling from above, it could easily become so.

 

[James44]

From what I know the football department isn't exactly dysfunctional but with enough meddling from above, it could easily become so.

There is something culturally wrong there.

Didn't a recruiter, who was head hunted from Geelong, quit less than 12 months into his term? Wayne Hughes also got sacked.

Judd may have helped Carlton change culturally onfield but offield, things have been a mess for years.

 

[Yellow Feathers]

How many flags did Judd get them?

 

[HARKER]

There is something culturally wrong there.
Didn't a recruiter, who was head hunted from Geelong, quit less than 12 months into his term? Wayne Hughes also got sacked.
Judd may have helped Carlton change culturally onfield but offield, things have been a mess for years.

There have been problems and continue to be so.

1. Henderson, Tuohy and Walker shouldn't be playing. All have debilitating injuries and should have had surgery already.
2. Garlett is having his own issues. Won't go into detail.
3. Some players haven't bought into Micks plans. Those players won't be there next year.

Things will change quickly.
That's not to say that Carlton will be challenging but the depth will improve next year and should we hit even a couple of our current recruiting marks the fielded team next year will be quite different to what we're currently seeing.
A winning club is a happy club..................A happy club can win.