Carlton's list

[doppleganger]

Yeah and they aren't a shaddow on the quality of the players I mentioned apart from Murphy who was also at his peak back then and Gibbs who also played good footy back then as well. You're severly underselling the influence a fit and firing Waite and Judd in their prime had on the team in 2011. Hardly any key position players in that group you listed and no forwards, none which are any good.

You keep imagining Waite was ever any good?
He played 9 games in 2009, 16 in 2010 and just 12 in 2011
Waite has had better seasons for MM then he did in 2011.

Judd was a jet, but that is just one bloke.

Simpson has stayed at the same level.

Henderson, Garlett, Bell and Armfield are not peaking, all are unfit and playing poorly .

Why are they playing poorly?
Ratten got borderline AA squad type seasons out of guys like Walker and Garlett, yet today they are just ordinary.

The only guns we have at their peak at the moment are Murphy and Gibbs and Murphy still had a better season back then.

As I listed you have the core of your best team in the right age group, the problem is that the current coach can't get them to play good football.

YeahCoaches aren't food, they don't have an expiry date, the finish because of health or an unwillingness to coach.

All great coaches do have a finishing time, why aren't guys like Matthews or Blight still coaching?

Despite seeing the team go from potential top4 to struggling for bottom four, Carlton fans want to give a bloke who started coaching in 1984 the reigns of a long term rebuild!!

 

[gbatman]

You keep imagining Waite was ever any good?
He played 9 games in 2009, 16 in 2010 and just 12 in 2011
Waite has had better seasons for MM then he did in 2011.

Judd was a jet, but that is just one bloke.

Simpson has stayed at the same level.


Why are they playing poorly?
Ratten got borderline AA squad type seasons out of guys like Walker and Garlett, yet today they are just ordinary.


As I listed you have the core of your best team in the right age group, the problem is that the current coach can't get them to play good football.

All great coaches do have a finishing time, why aren't guys like Matthews or Blight still coaching?

Despite seeing the team go from potential top4 to struggling for bottom four, Carlton fans want to give a bloke who started coaching in 1984 the reigns of a long term rebuild!!

You know very little about Carlton.

Waite was outstanding in 2011 and then got injured.

I think you are also forgetting eddie Betts, there's 45-50 goals gone for us, also in his prime back then.

Simpson has dropped but only slightly, not quite as quick.

You're really battling, they peaked, all the guns peaked, that was 3+ years ago...

Matthews and Blight had had enough, Particularly Blight who really did not want to coach at the end of his career.

You're really struggling to get a grip of our list and drafting history. We drafted noone who could play between 2009-2012, what do you think the result of that would be?

 

[doppleganger]

You know very little about Carlton.

Waite was outstanding in 2011 and then got injured.

Waite in 2011

Played 12 games - Avg, 15 disposals, 7 marks and 1.3 goals per game

You have low expectations if that is classed as outstanding.

Plenty of Carlton fans were using the fact that that Waite was a non-factor in the 2nd half of 2011 as reason why they would make the jump to top4 in 2012.

But here you are claiming he was outstanding and playing at his peak??

I think you are also forgetting eddie Betts, there's 45-50 goals gone for us, also in his prime back then.

Yes Eddie is a big loss, why hasn't Garlett or Walker picked up the slack??

Simpson has dropped but only slightly, not quite as quick.

You're really battling, they peaked, all the guns peaked, that was 3+ years ago...

Who are all the guns who peaked??

You have Judd, but Judd was at his 'peak' the moment he came to the blues in 2008...he wasn't the reason why the blues improved from 2008 to 2011.

The Carlton 'guns' and the reason for improvement and optimism were the young guys like Murphy, Gibbs, Jamison, Yarran, Walker, Betts and Robinson who were all 25 or under in 2011 and all 7 of them finished in the top10 in the BnF.

Throw in young highly rated KP in Kreuzer, Henderson, Warnock and Hampson and the Blues list appeared to be in a great place...a crack young midfield, and good young KP talent....sustained top4 and assault at the premiership was the expectation at Carlton leading into the 2012 season.

Why would guys like Murphy, Gibbs, Yarran, Walker, Jamison have peaked when they were not yet 25??

Matthews and Blight had had enough, Particularly Blight who really did not want to coach at the end of his career.

Blight was lured to StKilda for money...and it was a disaster.
Mathews hung around too long and was stale.

Point being, ALL coaches, no matter how good, have an expiry.

Almost all coaches gang around a bit too long, fair enough too all competitive beasts with big ego's, and the coin would also be well worth keeping on for.

Funny that a coach who has had hardly any players actually grow and improve under his watch us being talked up based on something he achieved at another club almost 15 years ago!!

You're really struggling to get a grip of our list and drafting history. We drafted noone who could play between 2009-2012, what do you think the result of that would be?

Yeah having a few poor drafts in a row can impact, but that impact is still yet to be felt...right now you still have a massive chunk of the list in the 23-28 age group, when they normally play their best footy.

Having barely any quality in early 20s just means the future is bleak.

If Carlton thought the list was rubbish, and lacking in young talent, why the feck would you bring in a senior bloke like Thomas instead of using FA compo from Betts which would have been a 1st round pick??

 

[etsal1]

All these threads are always dominated by the same posters. *yawn*

 

[Freomaniac]

Gone: Carrazzo, Waite, Mclean, Bootsma, Duigan, Scotland, Watson, Warnock, Lucas.

Borderline: Garlett, White, McInnes, Bell, Armfield, Temay, Tuohy, Ellard, Cachia, Judd (if he chooses to retire).

Our list is abysmal.

I see there are some WA players on that list you mentioned. I wouldnt mind giving Simon White a 1 year contract. Not exactly forward by could be a good mid.

I reckon West Coast might go after a couple of mids at the right price.


But lets be realistic here. Thats 19 players you mentioned above, That would take 2-4 seasons to get rid of all of them. Freo were in a Similar position back in 2008 and did the culling over 2-3 seasons. Freo had around 5-6 retirements In Matt Carr, Peter Bell, Shaun McManus, Heath Black and Jeff Farmer. Josh Carr walked out and went back to Port, Warnock Ironically got traded to your club. Then at the end of 2009, freo culled another 5-7 guys off the list then another 6 in 2010.

This season carlton will retire some of the older heads and Trade delist a few guys. Next season, they will cull the duds.

 

[blaze036]

They really need some leaders, it's become clear Murphy is not up to standard

 

[Fadge]

Walker just turned 28, that is your peak age...ie the age Judd was when Carlton peaked in 2011.

The following Carlton players are in the peak age group 23-28 for footballers right NOW

23-Yarran, Bell
24-Casboult, Curnow, Garlett, Henderson, Touhy
25-Robinson, Kreuzer, Gibbs, Everitt, Ellard
26-Murphy, Rowe, White
27-Armfield, Thomas, Warnock
28-Walker, Jamison, McLean

Carlton only have four key older players who are 30+ Judd, Waite, Simpson and Carazzo

You are absolutely deluded if you think the list was in peak window back in 09-11 under Ratten.

Everything should be aligning for Carlton to be peaking right now, hence why MM was bought in.

Yet the majority of players in their peak footballing age have stagnated or regressed under MM and now Carlton look like a bottom four type team.

It is dumb thinking a coach who started out 30 years ago doesn't have an expiry date. and even dumber to not see the signs early that his methods may not work anymore.

The youth coming through may be light on, which will hurt the future, but the bulk of the list is now the youth back from 09-11 under Ratts who have now matured...and Carlton have gone backwards as they matured.

Great post. It is clear with the age profile Carlton currently has and the limited youth coming through that they should be peaking right now. Dark days ahead for the Old Dark Navy Blues.

 

[Fadge]

The delusion continues...

Did I see a headline this morning - 'Gibbs: We can win a flag soon'.

 

[Old Dark Blues]

The delusion continues...

Did I see a headline this morning - 'Gibbs: We can win a flag soon'.

It's not just that - the current line of thinking amongst those supporters in absolute denial mode is that we go well against the good teams (like who ?) and bad against the bad teams.

Except Geelong are doing poorly, and we played the Hawks with most of their team out - and they smashed us in the end. It's almost like the last quarter didn't happen.

Oh - and Murphy, Kruezer, Gibbs, Walker, Garlett, (and anyone else who played well under Ratten) are all 3 years PAST their prime and are finished - because they peaked under Ratten. (Had NOTHING to do with him getting the best out of them as a coach - they peaked).

Ratten also had the best drafting ever, and the best list, and Mick has no players.

Ratten gets 12 months to turn the list around - Mick gets 5 years.

This is their rationale - no kidding.

 

[bombermick]

Players don't always peak in their peak years. I can remember guys like Blumfield and Heffernan peaking early for us and not doing much after. Carlton are experiencing this with Murphy, Garlett et al.

 

[markm106]

I think Carlton certainly overrated their list. They really need to hit the draft and try and develop some players. They missed the window when Judd was at his peak and although he is performing well now a few others have dropped away, been injured, gone or not come on. I know Daisy had an interupted start to the seson but he is not playing anywhere near where he should be for someone they paid so much for. The list needs to be gutted and then start again.

 

[KnaveyBlue]

I see there are some WA players on that list you mentioned. I wouldnt mind giving Simon White a 1 year contract. Not exactly forward by could be a good mid... I reckon West Coast might go after a couple of mids at the right price.

Blues will keep White.

I get the feeling one of the WA teams will take a punt on Lucas, I can see him at Freo under Lyon actually. Has shown he has all the attributes to be a very handy AFL player, we just can't seem to get his head and confidence right. Maybe back home in a comfortable environment that will happen.

Understandably both WA teams will probably be keen to get hold of Garlett. He's rumoured to be having some relationship troubles in Melbourne, and how that resolves will probably dictate whether he goes home to family, or sticks it out in Melbourne. His off field issues combined with the loss of Eddie seem to be badly affecting his enthusiasm for footy, meaning other clubs will probably be able to pay unders due to his reduced output this year.

 

[Kram]

Garlett would be lucky to get a game at Freo, far better fit for West Coast.

 

[KnaveyBlue]

Garlett would be lucky to get a game at Freo, far better fit for West Coast.

In his current form maybe. In every other year of his career he'd be a walk-up start in pretty much any team's forwardline. By the numbers, he's outperformed Ballantyne and Walters over the last four years.

 

[dumb]

curnow was ready to take over carrazzo's mantle as our chief ball-winning tagger before injury. gibbs and murphy having some good form, particularly gibbs. yarran working harder to become a more solid footballer. simpson. on top of that some horribly underperforming players. henderson not followed up from last year, garlett, warnock lots of taps but not much else. mclean played well for about 1.5 seasons on our list, right about time it came for a new contract or delisting. armfield backwards, among others. some of our out and out negative taggers are still learning their craft where they might start to win their own ball as well as keep another player quiet.
some tall picks have been busts (not counting watson just yet) in recent drafts to add to an already existent lack. there's gaping holes in the list where young forwardline talls should be. eddie betts 40-50 goal loss was not balanced out by thomas.

chronic lack of skill improvement, including constantly terrible goalkicking. losing games where we have been expected to win, 'not turning up'. how long have these been apparent for? from ratten's time, but nothing has changed. i don't think they play team football. they rarely remonstrate or come to the party with opponents that might jumper-punching. shepparding players is far too rare. ratten fostered some individuality and attack in the team which i feel cost us some football basics - our better teams of recent time have allowed this to be ignored while we won - now mm is dealing with the consequences, not being able to break them from this so easily and we watch our soft, undefensive team fall apart.

 

[Freomaniac]

Blues will keep White.

I get the feeling one of the WA teams will take a punt on Lucas, I can see him at Freo under Lyon actually. Has shown he has all the attributes to be a very handy AFL player, we just can't seem to get his head and confidence right. Maybe back home in a comfortable environment that will happen.

Understandably both WA teams will probably be keen to get hold of Garlett. He's rumoured to be having some relationship troubles in Melbourne, and how that resolves will probably dictate whether he goes home to family, or sticks it out in Melbourne. His off field issues combined with the loss of Eddie seem to be badly affecting his enthusiasm for footy, meaning other clubs will probably be able to pay unders due to his reduced output this year.

I reckon if White is up for trade, Both WA teams would be interested. The bloke is 190cm and 94kg. Eagles need a big bodied mid as Priddis and Yeo are the only big bodied mids in their side. Rest of the Eagles mids are outside mids/runners. It really depends where both WA teams finish.

Freo might be keen to get him at the right price. He would be a key forward right now if he was with us. Either that of a Big bodied inside mid like Barlow or Mundy.

 

[KnaveyBlue]

He would be a key forward right now if he was with us. Either that of a Big bodied inside mid like Barlow or Mundy.

I don't think White would cut it as a mid, basically plays a like a KPP or at the very least a big third tall.

 

[The Joker]

The blues do have a good brigade of players under 190cms, the problem is KPPs and a fit A grade ruckman.
Waite must go. Henderson and Rowe must be put in a position and kept there. Cazbolt could be a very good CHF, he is a great mark and a good long kick but at FF he is to much of a liability for the obvious reason.

Kreuzer could very well be classified as an A grade ruckman but **** he is no good on the wrong side of the fence, the hard decision has to be made. Even if a downgrade needs to be made there is about 5 or 6 options here in WA at WCE and Freo that would offer more than Warnock. Need a Number 1 and a good forward/ruckman.

Everit should only be a injury replacement. Same with Warnock and Watson.

Jamison is a gun.

Give Giles a go...

 

[etsal1]

The blues do have a good brigade of players under 190cms, the problem is KPPs and a fit A grade ruckman.
Waite must go. Henderson and Rowe must be put in a position and kept there. Cazbolt could be a very good CHF, he is a great mark and a good long kick but at FF he is to much of a liability for the obvious reason.

Kreuzer could very well be classified as an A grade ruckman but **** he is no good on the wrong side of the fence, the hard decision has to be made. Even if a downgrade needs to be made there is about 5 or 6 options here in WA at WCE and Freo that would offer more than Warnock.

Everit should only be a injury replacement. Same with Warnock and Watson.

Jamison is a gun.

Give Giles a go...

Giles out for year with stress fracture in foot. But I agree with most of what you said bar Everitt.

 

[The Joker]

Giles out for year with stress fracture in foot. But I agree with most of what you said bar Everitt.

Oh thats bad luck wish him well.

Ok with Everitt, what part does he play currently? It just seems to me that he doesn't offer enough. Yes he can give something but its never enough. If he is the 20th to 22nd player chosen in a top 10 club then fine but bottom 8 he must make way for youth.

 

[latrell]

I fell of my chair when I heard gibbs talk about winning premierships in the next 5 years. It is this sort of delusion that holds clubs like carlton, Richmond and Essendon back. Carlton are full of mentally weak players like Andrew walker who play above expectation against the 'better' teams because there is simply no performance pressure on him. Come up against the demons and anyone can beat him. These arrogant clubs need a reality check and then once they go back to the drawing board they can finally move forward. The drafting of daisy Thomas when they still don't have a key forward is still one of the funniest recruiting moves ive seen.

 

[etsal1]

Oh thats bad luck wish him well.

Ok with Everitt, what part does he play currently? It just seems to me that he doesn't offer enough. Yes he can give something but its never enough. If he is the 20th to 22nd player chosen in a top 10 club then fine but bottom 8 he must make way for youth.

He has been playing as a run-with player (when Carrazzo & Curnow have been injured this year) and was very very good at it. Completely shut down players like Montagna, Sloane, Gaff etc whilst hitting the score board and getting the ball himself.

That is probably why you think he 'doesn't offer enough' because he has been playing a more defensive role. I am very interested to see what his role will be now that Carrazzo & Curnow are both back.

Secondly, the 'he must make way for youth comment' makes him sound like he is 30. He is 25.

I'm not meaning this in an attacking way, but from your comment I get the impression you either a) haven't watched Everitt play this year or b) have misunderstood his role in the team.

 

[Freomaniac]

I fell of my chair when I heard gibbs talk about winning premierships in the next 5 years. It is this sort of delusion that holds clubs like carlton, Richmond and Essendon back. Carlton are full of mentally weak players like Andrew walker who play above expectation against the 'better' teams because there is simply no performance pressure on him. Come up against the demons and anyone can beat him. These arrogant clubs need a reality check and then once they go back to the drawing board they can finally move forward. The drafting of daisy Thomas when they still don't have a key forward is still one of the funniest recruiting moves ive seen.

To be realistic Carlton could win a flag in 5 years time. I can see them make a few finals. Malthouse took his time to get Collingwood an elusive flag. Dont know if the Carlton board have that much patience though.

 

[The Joker]

He has been playing as a run-with player (when Carrazzo & Curnow have been injured this year) and was very very good at it. Completely shut down players like Montagna, Sloane, Gaff etc whilst hitting the score board and getting the ball himself.

That is probably why you think he 'doesn't offer enough' because he has been playing a more defensive role. I am very interested to see what his role will be now that Carrazzo & Curnow are both back.

Secondly, the 'he must make way for youth comment' makes him sound like he is 30. He is 25.

I'm not meaning this in an attacking way, but from your comment I get the impression you either a) haven't watched Everitt play this year or b) have misunderstood his role in the team.

This is my point. 1st I said he should be an injury replacement and thats exactly what he has been doing of late. 2nd I said he just doesnt offer enough, now that Carrazzo is back what happens? Go back up forward and be the c grade player again or put him back and see how he goes? 25 with 90+ games that has never offered enough. I just cant emphasis the word "enough" enough when it come to Andrejs.

 

[Jesse Custer]

All i know is things can change very quickly. A draft pick, an experienced player traded in can turn things around.