Carlton's list

[Gone Critical]

I think its the other way round - the list isn't that good and Malthouse is getting quite a lot out of them

Carlton been more than competitive last month but just lack quality

it's always the chicken and the egg with coaching. Still Mick is getting a bit of an armchair ride due to his reputation. Not many coaches could start at a club and declare in their 1st pre season that if the planets align a premiership isnt out of the question that year and follow up the next season by claiming the team was at 11 oclock on the premiership window. All the while taking that team from finals contender to the bottom 4. A younger coach would have been held to task on those claims but MM seems to be getting away with it. All power to him

 

[Gone Critical]

played less than 50 games. do you remember many key forwards 50th game? of course not because they were all nobodies at that stage in their career.

Again while its true key forwards take time Casboults clock is ticking. Lots of KPF develop to his point and never get past that, just because he has reached this stage doesnt mean he will continue to develop much more. I can see why Carlton like him but dont you hope he becomes your 3rd big forward with Henderson , who shows much more and then hopefully another big man recruit taking the main roles.

 

[Fadge]

played less than 50 games. do you remember many key forwards 50th game? of course not because they were all nobodies at that stage in their career.

I get it now... Levi Casboult is Jarrod Waite mkII

 

[mike123]

All this criticism on Casboult is unwarrented

 

[etsal1]

Surprised no one has said we have to get Fev back.

 

[James44]

played less than 50 games. do you remember many key forwards 50th game? of course not because they were all nobodies at that stage in their career.

How many got to 24 & had played less than 50 games?

 

[etsal1]

How many got to 24 & had played less than 50 games?

2 long term knee injuries, being drafted late and being a rookie. But you should know that with your inside knowledge.

Aaron Black drafted same year as Levi but in the national draft (whereas Levi was in the rookie draft ). Aaron will be 24 this year just like Levi. Also played less than 50 games.

Must be a lost hope too.

 

[Simon Wiggins]

I get it now... Levi Casboult is Jarrod Waite mkII

Is that supposed to be an insult? If some hindsight hero offered me the chance to draft an 18 year old Jarrod Waite with a rookie pick I'd certainly take it.

 

[Monkey King]

This really is the elephant in the room.

If the Carlton hierarchy had a crystal ball at the end of 2007 and knew that they wouldn't make top four in any of the next seven years, and after 14 games in 2014 they would be sitting at 4 and 10, would the decision have been different?

One would hope so...

The most stupid premise on BigFooty. If Carlton had a crystal ball; out of the dozens of recruitment decisions made at the club since 2007, I reckon Judd would be the last one they'd change.

 

[Monkey King]

Again while its true key forwards take time Casboults clock is ticking. Lots of KPF develop to his point and never get past that, just because he has reached this stage doesnt mean he will continue to develop much more. I can see why Carlton like him but dont you hope he becomes your 3rd big forward with Henderson , who shows much more and then hopefully another big man recruit taking the main roles.

I agree with the rest of your post, but the bold part is a bit silly. Casboult was rookie listed as your classic project player. Spent the first couple of years getting rid of his puppy fat and was always going to take longer than your average draftee. It's just his third season of exposure to senior footy and he's played less than 30 games. Given the signs he's showing, coupled with Carlton's lack of KPF's, he'll be given time.

All this criticism on Casboult is unwarrented

It's a bit strange I must say.

 

[thetradesman]

I agree with the rest of your post, but the bold part is a bit silly. Casboult was rookie listed as your classic project player. Spent the first couple of years getting rid of his puppy fat and was always going to take longer than your average draftee. It's just his third season of exposure to senior footy and he's played less than 30 games. Given the signs he's showing, coupled with Carlton's lack of KPF's, he'll be given time.



It's a bit strange I must say.

He is 24, how much more time do you want to give the guy.

 

[Monkey King]

He is 24, how much more time do you want to give the guy.

Not sure the meaning of your question on a number of levels tbh. How much more time to do what? It's not like he's failing at AFL level. What are you talking about exactly? And yes he's 24yo. So what? As I said, he was rookie listed at 20yo as a dead-set project player expected to take a couple of years if he was ever going to come on. As it stands, he played 6 back end games in his debut season at 22yo and is now into just his third season with less than 30 games under his belt at 24yo. What is it you're suggesting? He's been given way too long as an AFL player and shown nothing?

 

[etsal1]

He is 24, how much more time do you want to give the guy.

He was drafted at 20. Lost 2 years due to knee injuries.


Meanwhile, how much longer do you want to give Vickery, who Levi has outperformed this year?

He's also outperformed Aaron Black this year. Does this mean Norf should give up on him?

 

[Beer n Skittles]

Assessments like this being the reason the Carlton Football Club will forever wallow in mediocrity.

Yeah mate, they wouldn't go back & undo the trade for Warnock, then use that 2nd round pick on Hannebery or Beams.
No, they'd go back & undo the trade that netted Carlton the player that dragged them out of the mire & won a brownlow at the club.

 

[Fadge]

Yeah mate, they wouldn't go back & undo the trade for Warnock, then use that 2nd round pick on Hannebery or Beams.
No, they'd go back & undo the trade that netted Carlton the player that dragged them out of the mire & won a brownlow at the club.

Throwing the kitchen sink at one player when you're a basket case to start with will only get you so far, and at the tail end of the experiment, look at where you find yourselves again...

If you're happy to bob up with the occasional finals appearance and the even less occasional finals victory without ever seriously being a contender, then sure you can consider the trade a success. However, I thought contending for premierships was what this competition was all about?

 

[Fadge]

Is that supposed to be an insult? If some hindsight hero offered me the chance to draft an 18 year old Jarrod Waite with a rookie pick I'd certainly take it.

I'm referring to the fact that Waite has been 'the answer' to Carlton's forward line woes for the past five years, and now that it appears that his career is over, you're all now pinning your hopes on the next in line, despite him not being rated in the best 30 key position forwards in the competition despite him entering his peak playing years.

 

[Beer n Skittles]

I'm referring to the fact that Waite has been 'the answer' to Carlton's forward line woes for the past five years, and now that it appears that his career is over, you're all now pinning your hopes on the next in line, despite him not being rated in the best 30 key position forwards in the competition despite him entering his peak playing years.

I'm certainly not pinning my hopes on Casboult. Right now he's a decent 2nd ruck / 3rd forward. Could see him improving into a good 2nd ruck / 3rd forward. Really don't want to rely on him as a FF or CHF

 

[TigerTime88]

He was drafted at 20. Lost 2 years due to knee injuries.


Meanwhile, how much longer do you want to give Vickery, who Levi has outperformed this year?

He's also outperformed Aaron Black this year. Does this mean Norf should give up on him?

The thing is he actually isn't out performing Vickery.

Casboult - 12 disposals a game, 0.8 goals, 2.6 tackles and 5.9 HO
Vickery - 10.2 disposals a game, 1.7 goals, 2.3 tackles and 6.6 HO

I would say they are fairly even this year with Vickery kicking more goals. The difference is Richmond's expectations of Vickery are alot higher and therefore he is having a shocking year, where as Casboult is throwing up similar numbers and having a good year. I do think Vickery has been terrible this year.

The problem for Carlton is that Levi Casboult is not the answer. He is never going to develop into anything more than a role player and you can't build your forward line around him. The Blues have to draft the best KPF available to them this year and then build around that.

 

[Kernafides]

amcre if only you'd give Schulz a bit more time

 

[TigerTime88]

amcre if only you'd give Schulz a bit more time

Schulz was never going to turn it around at Richmond. Needed the change. Still think he is a good average player who beats up on weak teams.

We are lucky to have Jack to build around and then some up and coming KPF's, but unfortunately no team is going to compete with GWS/GC for forward power...or Sydney for that matter.

 

[Old Dark Blues]

The thing is he actually isn't out performing Vickery.

Casboult - 12 disposals a game, 0.8 goals, 2.6 tackles and 5.9 HO
Vickery - 10.2 disposals a game, 1.7 goals, 2.3 tackles and 6.6 HO

I would say they are fairly even this year with Vickery kicking more goals. The difference is Richmond's expectations of Vickery are alot higher and therefore he is having a shocking year, where as Casboult is throwing up similar numbers and having a good year. I do think Vickery has been terrible this year.

The problem for Carlton is that Levi Casboult is not the answer. He is never going to develop into anything more than a role player and you can't build your forward line around him. The Blues have to draft the best KPF available to them this year and then build around that.

Was with all the players during the week at a kids function - they were all kicking it to each other holding their arms on their chest expecting the other players to drop it into their hands - many were doing it - Casboult dropped it lace out right into TE's hands - half the team fell apart laughing.

Even the PLAYERS know what he's like.

The issue regarding Carlton - both MICK and the LIST is not - can Mick save the team - he MIGHT be able to. The issue also not WILL Casboult develop into a a half decent player outside of marking ? We do not know - we all hope so.

The issue is HOW ARE THEY TRACKING SO FAR.

And the answer is crap. Seriously crap. Worse than crap - in fact Micks 28% win loss ratio is amongst the worst of all time. You can not excuse that by saying he WILL do better. You don't know that. Hopefully yes - but right now - crap.

Similar with Casboult - he has gotten better simply because he had ONE good game where he kicked four goals against a severely depleted Hawks.

This APPEARS to have papered over the truth about his game. Those stats above would be a GREAT DEAL WORSE were it not for his one good game.

Similar can be said for Mick - he had four games in a row - awesome - before that it was 4 straight losses and now five straight losses.

No one wants to see Casboult fail - he comes across as a terrific bloke - he looks young and could play 8 years+. It would be awesome.

But the truth is - right now - he is terrible. What will he become - irrelevant.

Edit:

It's also worth noting on Mick - at other clubs he would drop right down to this ratio - around 30% - coming off high percentages - and then resume straight back up to where he left off.

As dark as it may be - he may well be tanking. If Carlton turn it around, like West Coast, Melbourne, and suddenly hit top four next year, then there will be some hard questions asked. I hope not - because for Carlton to have its integrity brought into question AGAIN would be a disaster.

 

[JohnnyFontane90]

all this casboult talk is a bit redundant. obviously he's no top 5 key forward and anyone who entertains that notion is mentally ******ed. but the carlton forward line isn't where the problem is. despite ranking below average in inside 50s per game they actually rank above average for marks inside 50. the problem with carlton this year is their inept ball use by all their b-graders (which is everyone not named gibbs, murphy, simpson and yarran). just constant skill errors coming out of defence gives us no chance on holding onto possession. not just bad skill execution but bad decision making kicking to two on ones etc. it's like micks instructions are too complicated and the players are second guessing everything. they look fine with their good players have the ball but the second the balls falls to armfield, robinson, Curnow etc you can basically count on another turnover. the overall skill level of this team is appauling.

 

[Collingwoodity]

That's a false dichotomy though, as the consequence of not getting Judd could have been that they were like Melbourne for the last decade, and lost Murphy/Gibbs/Henderson/(Kennedy assuming they kept him instead of Judd) to other clubs who were looking like having success.

Judd was worth the trade at the time, and thats the only light in which it can be judged.

You mustn't understand the meaning of dichotomy.

The dichotomy is where Carlton is at with the Judd trade and where Carlton would have been without the Judd trade.

We don't know what Carlton would have been like without the Judd trade.

We do know what Carlton is with the Judd trade. That is that is has not brought the ultimate tangible success of a flag.

Not sure how one can definitively posit that Carlton would be bottom 5 in 2014 if they had not recruited Judd.

What is not in dispute is that Carlton are in the bottom 5 in 2014 with the Judd recruitment.

 

[HARKER]

He is 24, how much more time do you want to give the guy.

And so is Vickery who was a top ten pick.
Casboult was a cheap rookie selection who was always going to take more time.

Actually, I'm somewhat surprised he hasn't had more impact this season as he took his running ability up a couple of notches in the off-season.

 

[HARKER]

You mustn't understand the meaning of dichotomy.

The dichotomy is where Carlton is at with the Judd trade and where Carlton would have been without the Judd trade.

We don't know what Carlton would have been like without the Judd trade.

We do know what Carlton is with the Judd trade. That is that is has not brought the ultimate tangible success of a flag.

Not sure how one can definitively posit that Carlton would be bottom 5 in 2014 if they had not recruited Judd.

What is not in dispute is that Carlton are in the bottom 5 in 2014 with the Judd recruitment.

Ablett won't bring a flag to Gold Coast.
Goddard isn't going to bring a flag to Essendon.
Dal Santo won't bring one to North.

There's more to bringing in a player than Premierships alone.
Carlton needed Judd and no thinking person (or at least thinking Carlton person) would disagree.