Carlton's list

[thetradesman]

And so is Vickery who was a top ten pick.
Casboult was a cheap rookie selection who was always going to take more time.

Actually, I'm somewhat surprised he hasn't had more impact this season as he took his running ability up a couple of notches in the off-season.

And Vickery is a spud, should be traded or delisted.

I wasn't arguing as whether he was good value for a rookie pick, one of your posters said that he has shown the potential to be a top 5 power forward in the game, which is a completely bias statement because he hasn't.

 

[Monkey King]

Assessments like this being the reason the Carlton Football Club will forever wallow in mediocrity.

This is perfection. Full of shit, layer upon layer.

 

[HARKER]

And Vickery is a spud, should be traded or delisted.

I wasn't arguing as whether he was good value for a rookie pick, one of your posters said that he has shown the potential to be a top 5 power forward in the game, which is a completely bias statement because he hasn't.

One of the top ten contested marks maybe but not a top 5 forward..........that just won't happen.

Has his uses as a strong forward and relief ruck-man. If he becomes as useful as Leigh Brown was for Collingwood, he will have done well.

 

[thetradesman]

One of the top ten contested marks maybe but not a top 5 forward..........that just won't happen.

Has his uses as a strong forward and relief ruck-man. If he becomes as useful as Leigh Brown was for Collingwood, he will have done well.

That is the reason Carlton are a bad football club, accept mediocrity.

 

[Tippett2Goal]

You mustn't understand the meaning of dichotomy.

The dichotomy is where Carlton is at with the Judd trade and where Carlton would have been without the Judd trade.

We don't know what Carlton would have been like without the Judd trade.

We do know what Carlton is with the Judd trade. That is that is has not brought the ultimate tangible success of a flag.

Not sure how one can definitively posit that Carlton would be bottom 5 in 2014 if they had not recruited Judd.

What is not in dispute is that Carlton are in the bottom 5 in 2014 with the Judd recruitment.

I understand the meaning just fine, you were painting it as a black and white comparison (might be the team), where it isn't.

Suggesting that had they not traded for Judd that they would currently have Henderson and Kennedy as bookends is not the only (or even likely) scenario.

They don't trade for Judd, Fev doesnt get the Shove, Brisbane hold on to Henderson etc etc etc

What if they still trade for Judd, but draft decently, or trade out Waite when they trade in Judd on "potential".

 

[Beer n Skittles]

That is the reason Carlton are a bad football club, accept mediocrity.

That statement is so dumb I'm almost ashamed to quote it. You can't have a team full of superstars, every team will have their mediocre players. Hell Richmond seem to go out of their way to recruit mediocre players.

 

[Bluez Rule]

That is the reason Carlton are a bad football club, accept mediocrity.

heheheheheheh........ oh you are serious??? I guess the Richmond following would give you a fair degree of expertise on mediocrity

 

[HARKER]

That is the reason Carlton are a bad football club, accept mediocrity.

Did all right winning 16 flags. That's not mediocre.

You may be talking about recent history. You're just a bit confused.
Ratten did hang onto players longer than the ideal. Put too much faith in getting them right when he didn't rally know how.

Malthouse cleared 10 last year and may go close again this year.

 

[Bluez Rule]

Ablett won't bring a flag to Gold Coast.
Goddard isn't going to bring a flag to Essendon.
Dal Santo won't bring one to North.

There's more to bringing in a player than Premierships alone.
Carlton needed Judd and no thinking person (or at least thinking Carlton person) would disagree.

Judd going to Carlton turned the place around. After years of wallowing post salary cap penalties about the only light there was the reflection from the Royall Parade trams. Him signing gave the place hope and heart.
FWIW he also could have taken an 'easy' gig with pies for example who were up and about but the fact he was willing to help a bottom club try to turn things around says a lot (yeah Visy $$ help with decisions too).
I'm sad that it looks like he wont get a second cup but will be grateful for a bloody long time that he got the club going in a direction that is far better than when he arrived.

 

[HARKER]

Judd going to Carlton turned the place around. After years of wallowing post salary cap penalties about the only light there was the reflection from the Royall Parade trams. Him signing gave the place hope and heart.
FWIW he also could have taken an 'easy' gig with pies for example who were up and about but the fact he was willing to help a bottom club try to turn things around says a lot (yeah Visy $$ help with decisions too).
I'm sad that it looks like he wont get a second cup but will be grateful for a bloody long time that he got the club going in a direction that is far better than when he arrived.

I'm not sure why some don't get that.

Would have the same been said in 2010 when he won his second Brownlow?
In 2011 when he could have easily won his third Brownlow?

No.......Let's wait until he gets to the end of his career and judge on the strength of a team now winning the Premiership.
As if Josh Kennedy would have been the difference.

 

[Monkey King]

Yeah mate, they wouldn't go back & undo the trade for Warnock, then use that 2nd round pick on Hannebery or Beams.
No, they'd go back & undo the trade that netted Carlton the player that dragged them out of the mire & won a brownlow at the club.

And perhaps they'd grab Talia instead of trading for McLean. Or draft Darling over Watson. Fyfe or Carlisle over Lucas. I mean, if we're crystal balling Carlton's recruitment since 2007, Judd would be one of the last things you'd change. And if JK is the keeper, you'd trade pick 1 (Kreuzer) before you'd give up Judd. But let's face it, JK hasn't exactly set the world on fire at WCE. He's had two really good seasons and in one of those, Judd was the comp's MVP anyway. And this year he's beaten up on the expansion sides and otherwise been fairly average.

 

[Fadge]

As dark as it may be - he may well be tanking. If Carlton turn it around, like West Coast, Melbourne, and suddenly hit top four next year, then there will be some hard questions asked. I hope not - because for Carlton to have its integrity brought into question AGAIN would be a disaster.

Hard to accuse him of tanking when he continually plays the oldest and most experienced players on your list.

 

[Fadge]

I'm not sure why some don't get that.

Would have the same been said in 2010 when he won his second Brownlow?
In 2011 when he could have easily won his third Brownlow?

No.......Let's wait until he gets to the end of his career and judge on the strength of a team now winning the Premiership.
As if Josh Kennedy would have been the difference.

Good thing you've got Judd's individual awards to celebrate.

Me, I'd prefer to be barracking for my team deep into September.

 

[Fadge]

And perhaps they'd grab Talia instead of trading for McLean. Or draft Darling over Watson. Fyfe or Carlisle over Lucas. I mean, if we're crystal balling Carlton's recruitment since 2007, Judd would be one of the last things you'd change. And if JK is the keeper, you'd trade pick 1 (Kreuzer) before you'd give up Judd. But let's face it, JK hasn't exactly set the world on fire at WCE. He's had two really good seasons and in one of those, Judd was the comp's MVP anyway. And this year he's beaten up on the expansion sides and otherwise been fairly average.

It's not about using hindsight to select those players who have turned out to be good players instead of those who have been busts at Carlton. There's an argument that had Darling and Fyfe gone to Carlton we might very well be talking about them in the same way as we do Casboult and Lucas.

Drafting is 20% of the equation; development is what it's all about.

You blokes clearly don't see that by tying up over 10% of your salary cap on one player simply does not work in the modern era. You went with Judd and you peaked in the bottom half of the top 8, in a year where you failed to win a solitary match against the top four.

Now you're wallowing with the cellar dwellers with a bleak future ahead given the lack of quality youth that appears to be coming through at Visy Park.

But by all means, feel free to keep going about it the way you have been for the past decade...

 

[Alison Platinum]

Yeah mate, they wouldn't go back & undo the trade for Warnock, then use that 2nd round pick on Hannebery or Beams.
No, they'd go back & undo the trade that netted Carlton the player that dragged them out of the mire & won a brownlow at the club.

How come the tankers are always willing to give one solitary player the full credit for this, but completely ignore Ratten's contribution to getting them out of the mess.

 

[Fadge]

How come the tankers are always willing to give one solitary player the full credit for this, but completely ignore Ratten's contribution to getting them out of the mess.

My vote for post of the thread.

 

[HARKER]

Good thing you've got Judd's individual awards to celebrate.

Me, I'd prefer to be barracking for my team deep into September.

So you don't understand the discussion then? That's O.K. It happens.

 

[95blues]

How come the tankers are always willing to give one solitary player the full credit for this, but completely ignore Ratten's contribution to getting them out of the mess.

How come all of the same people that were bagging Ratten as a dud coach during his time at Carlton are now talking him up as the lone reason we made finals in those seasons?

 

[HARKER]

How come the tankers are always willing to give one solitary player the full credit for this, but completely ignore Ratten's contribution to getting them out of the mess.

Ratten was over his head with coaching, man-management and setting up and administering a football department.

Maybe Malthouse is also if you want, but that doesn't take away the facts of the matter....................the rest is just your imagination.

 

[Fadge]

How come all of the same people that were bagging Ratten as a dud coach during his time at Carlton are now talking him up as the lone reason we made finals in those seasons?

Ratten was over his head with coaching, man-management and setting up and administering a football department.

Maybe Malthouse is also if you want, but that doesn't take away the facts of the matter....................the rest is just your imagination.

Hindsight would suggest he did a pretty good job.

The view of most of the Carlton 'non-raters' was that it wasn't about Ratten's coaching (or lack of ability thereof), it was their inability to appropriately build their list and develop their players (which has been the case for a decade and is still yet to change).

Nonetheless, carry on - you blokes appear to be very comfortable with where your club is at.

 

[HARKER]

Hindsight would suggest he did a pretty good job.

The view of most of the Carlton 'non-raters' was that it wasn't about Ratten's coaching (or lack of ability thereof), it was their inability to appropriately build their list and develop their players (which has been the case for a decade and is still yet to change).

Nonetheless, carry on - you blokes appear to be very comfortable with where your club is at.

Actually hindsight showed us that he didn't do a good job and left a mess for the next coach coming in.
Had his support coaches off side, the medical department off-side and at odds with everyone above him except for mate, Kernahan.

That's not an attack on Ratten as much as it is for those that put Ratten in power and then were uncomfortable for doing so.

As I said, if you don't like the facts just keep imagining.

 

[James44]

Why did they sack Ratten?

Did they believe Ratten had developed the squad as much as he could and they needed someone to take it the next step?

 

[HARKER]

Why did they sack Ratten?

Did they believe Ratten had developed the squad as much as he could and they needed someone to take it the next step?

The board didn't like Ratten and the 2011 results forced their hand to a point in signing up Ratten again.

If you recall, even then talk of Rattens contract was dragged out as far as it could possibly go, as the CFC were in communication with Roos and Malthouse with Roos being the preference.
When that didn't come to be, we contracted Ratten for the interim and I'd suggest knowing we would have had to pay him out should Roos or Malthouse become available.

The CFC had an in principle agreement with Malthouse halfway through the 2012 season and Rattens fate was sealed.

Piss poor management and foresight by the club..................in hindsight.

 

[Monkey King]

There's an argument that had Darling and Fyfe gone to Carlton we might very well be talking about them in the same way as we do Casboult and Lucas.

Eh? That makes getting Judd an even better decision then. Had we have stuck with JK and used pick 3, due to our terrible player development, we would undoubtedly be even worse off.

Can't have it both ways old boy.

 

[Monkey King]

Why did they sack Ratten?

Did they believe Ratten had developed the squad as much as he could and they needed someone to take it the next step?

They sacked Ratten because they thought they could get a better coach. Pretty simple.

I was a supporter of Ratts. Even at the end I wanted the club to give him another season. That said though, he had obvious deficiencies as a coach.