Changes Round 11 vs Demons

[MaxiBont]

Who would have thought after the Adelaide game that Smith v Emmett would be the main discussion on BF by May?

Not me. Crazy how 7 weeks changed everything.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

Do you really think sitting on the bench for 60% of the game and getting smashed the 40% you are on is helping young Louis?

Look at his 2 set shots for goal he's had (Kid is shitting himself with pressure because he knows he is doing nothing and needs to impact)

Yes, playing AFL games is better for future AFL performance than playing VFL games

 

[Mutt]

Yes, playing AFL games is better for future AFL performance than playing VFL games

Come off it! If that were the case we'd be playing every new draftee in the AFL side from round 1.

 

[Butabi Brothers]

Emmett is on a hiding to nothing. He's been flung into a role he's clearly not equipped for in terms of experience and physical strength. 1st year, immature talls like him should be doing an apprenticeship in the VFL learning the demands of senior football and developing his skills. The coaches, either through desperation or more hope than expectation have taken the view that he can learn in the heat of AFL battle. I think he's got genuine talent and will be a very important player for us in a year or two. That is, of course, if his confidence isn't broken by recent performances. What he is experiencing now is a real test of his character and hopefully he comes through much better prepared for his future career.

100% agree with you. Been flung into a role not even nearly ready for. We all know Bevo hates rucks that aren't mobile which is why i believe Emmett is getting a run over Smith. Its the whole Zac Dawson v Sav Rocca scenario all over again.
I see some good attributes in Emmett, BUT there is no way he should have been playing against teams like Hawks, Carlton, Sydney or even this week v Melb.

Smith at least has a mans body and while still having limited experience, at least is capable of holding his own against men. He did half decent against Sweet in the ruck. If English misses again this week, Smith has to play and be the number 1 v Gawn. While he will still lose, he at least has a body to give a contest.

Play Lobb Fwd as second ruck if JOD comes in. If not, Emmett stays and rucks v backup.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

How much is feeding Emmett to Gawn going to help him though?

I think that we have to trust Bevo that he sees a resilient personality in young Louis. We can't just assume on their two behalfs that he's going to get destroyed mentally from this game, rather than learning from it.

Plenty of young talls have been woeful in their early games and turned into good players. Buddy Franklin used to kick bags on Paddy Ryder playing as a key defender very early in his career, at a similar age, as an example.

Players like Brodie Grundy, Peter Wright, Tim English himself, Luke Jackson, Riley Thiltorpe, Joe Daniher, etc. were all pretty useless in their first 1-2 years on an AFL list in the games that they got. They eventually matched the expectations more or less of the draft pick they were recruited and the coaches correctly saw something in them in giving them games while young for experiences' sake, but there were individual games within their first year or two on a list that were awful.

We have the same logic with Emmett, though he's being exposed more due to injuries (in an ideal world where Darcy, Lobb and English are not injured, he plays 0 AFL games this year), but at the same time, if we were expecting him to be as good as those 6 players, he would have not been available to us outside the top 20 in the draft.

Bevo's turning an injury crisis into an opportunity to fast track the development of a young player that's far exceeded the expectations of a pick in the mid-late 20s, across pre-season and his first couple of VFL-level practice/actual games. Yes, it might mean that we suffer from losses to Carlton and Melbourne, but I'm not confident that Smith or Khamis rucking makes us all that much better anyway. Splitting hairs, but Emmett far more likely to be the better player than Smith in 5 years' time I think, and that's a reasonable view Bevo has I think:

 

[Foxman98]

Come off it! If that were the case we'd be playing every new draftee in the AFL side from round 1.

Josh Schache is the perfect example for this not being true,

Was sent out as KPF1 on a hiding to none as a kid his first couple of year lost all confidence and out of the league by 25

No one wants to see Will Darcy in the team anytime soon for the exact same reason

 

[threenewpadlocks]

Josh Schache is the perfect example for this not being true,

Was sent out as KPF1 on a hiding to none as a kid his first couple of year lost all confidence and out of the league by 25

No one wants to see Will Darcy in the team anytime soon for the exact same reason

And we have to trust Bevo that he sees greater mental resilience in Emmett than what existed for Schache.

If we don't, what's the point of supporting the team at all, if our default assumption is that every single unknown thing about what influences the decision makers of our football department is bad?

 

[Foxman98]

And we have to trust Bevo that he sees greater mental resilience in Emmett than what existed for Schache.

If we don't, what's the point of supporting the team at all, if our default assumption is that every single unknown thing about what influences the decision makers of our football department is bad?

Not sure I understand the logic here

Coach openly admits kid is not ready to play said position

Coach then continues to play kid in said position

Kid continues to have little to no impact to the point where he struggles to have an effective disposal in the rare time he gets one

Team loses kid devoid of confidence is suddenly going to improve and be better off getting smacked by the best ruckman in the last decade

 

[Mojorisin]

I think that we have to trust Bevo that he sees a resilient personality in young Louis. We can't just assume on their two behalfs that he's going to get destroyed mentally from this game, rather than learning from it.

Plenty of young talls have been woeful in their early games and turned into good players. Buddy Franklin used to kick bags on Paddy Ryder playing as a key defender very early in his career, at a similar age, as an example.

Players like Brodie Grundy, Peter Wright, Tim English himself, Luke Jackson, Riley Thiltorpe, Joe Daniher, etc. were all pretty useless in their first 1-2 years on an AFL list in the games that they got. They eventually matched the expectations more or less of the draft pick they were recruited and the coaches correctly saw something in them in giving them games while young for experiences' sake, but there were individual games within their first year or two on a list that were awful.

We have the same logic with Emmett, though he's being exposed more due to injuries (in an ideal world where Darcy, Lobb and English are not injured, he plays 0 AFL games this year), but at the same time, if we were expecting him to be as good as those 6 players, he would have not been available to us outside the top 20 in the draft.

Bevo's turning an injury crisis into an opportunity to fast track the development of a young player that's far exceeded the expectations of a pick in the mid-late 20s, across pre-season and his first couple of VFL-level practice/actual games. Yes, it might mean that we suffer from losses to Carlton and Melbourne, but I'm not confident that Smith or Khamis rucking makes us all that much better anyway. Splitting hairs, but Emmett far more likely to be the better player than Smith in 5 years' time I think, and that's a reasonable view Bevo has I think:

I have no doubt Emmett has a higher ceiling than Smith (personally I see that in defence though).
I challenge the notion that its better to develop at AFL level however, especially as a tall. Sure some have bigger stronger bodies and can make it work but I think that is an exception not the rule.
In my opinion playing Emmett at AFL level as second ruck behind English and playing next to Naughton and Darcy would certainly be worthwhile and a good way to fast track him but again only my opinion I believe the script is flipped when he doesn’t have that talent surrounding him.
I think it is much more beneficial for guys to play more game time and get the reps in against guys closer to their own abilities not to mention that he would have the ability to gather more hands on learnings in all facets of his game rather than just the niche role he is currently jammed in.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

I have no doubt Emmett has a higher ceiling than Smith (personally I see that in defence though).
I challenge the notion that its better to develop at AFL level however, especially as a tall. Sure some have bigger stronger bodies and can make it work but I think that is an exception not the rule.
In my opinion playing Emmett at AFL level as second ruck behind English and playing next to Naughton and Darcy would certainly be worthwhile and a good way to fast track him but again only my opinion I believe the script is flipped when he doesn’t have that talent surrounding him.
I think it is much more beneficial for guys to play more game time and get the reps in against guys closer to their own abilities not to mention that he would have the ability to gather more hands on learnings in all facets of his game rather than just the niche role he is currently jammed in.

Fair enough, though I think the "value" of VFL experience generally is a bit overstated on here. You're largely playing on part timers with exposed stadiums with different conditions where a majority of his future AFL games will come under a roofed stadium with no wind. Far better to learn from the AFL game environment (playing at night, with senior players at teammates, sitting in meetings with AFL assistant coaches, etc.) than a morning VFL game where the wind's blowing a gale and your undersized opponent key defender whose a trainee schoolteacher in the morning can't go with your lead.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

Coach openly admits kid is not ready to play said position

And the point is that without injury we wouldn't be giving games to Emmett anyway. We can all agree on that, and that's what the coach was getting at.

Smith's not ready to play any AFL games either and yet we've given him two games.

We're forced to pick one or the other.

Coach then continues to play kid in said position

Because I think there's more upside in the type of player a 24 year old Emmett may be than what a 25 year old Smith might be, and Bevo seems to think so too.

Team loses kid devoid of confidence is suddenly going to improve and be better off getting smacked by the best ruckman in the last decade

That's literally my point - who are you or I to assume that he's going to lose confidence? That's inferring an awful lot of lacking resilience in a young kid and to the extent we can know this, we have to see him as a reslient player that will see playing on Gawn as an opportunity to develop and a motivator to get to that level as he gets older, not something that will be dispiriting. Why are we to assume that it will naturally lead to a loss of confidence? Emmett himself isn't stupid, he's not going to expect to be able to compete with Gawn. Why should he lose confidence if he heads into the game with realistic expectations that he's not expected to win the battles with Gawn?

 

[TiAn_]

Come off it! If that were the case we'd be playing every new draftee in the AFL side from round 1.

That’s a bit of false equivalency, though. Saying AFL experience is better learning for young players isn’t the same as saying we should only select young players in the side.

 

[TiAn_]

Josh Schache is the perfect example for this not being true,

Was sent out as KPF1 on a hiding to none as a kid his first couple of year lost all confidence and out of the league by 25

No one wants to see Will Darcy in the team anytime soon for the exact same reason

Schache averaged a goal a game and took the most contested marks of his career in his first season. It was his second year when his manger meeting with the Tigers became public mid-season and they dropped him that things fell apart for him up there. Then he played 27 games here before Josh Bruce replaced him in the side. Then we drafted Jamarra and moved Schache to defence.

 

[Mutt]

That’s a bit of false equivalency, though. Saying AFL experience is better learning for young players isn’t the same as saying we should only select young players in the side.

I'm didn't say therefore we should only select young players. You are making a false equivalency.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

Schache averaged a goal a game and took the most contested marks of his career in his first season. It was his second year when his manger meeting with the Tigers became public mid-season and they dropped him that things fell apart for him up there. Then he played 27 games here before Josh Bruce replaced him in the side. Then we drafted Jamarra and moved Schache to defence.

Who has openly stated about his mental health struggles.

To assume that Emmett's career will go down a similar path despite zero evidence that he lacks strong mental health and attributes such as resilience is just a bit bizarre. Until an ITK poster or there's some sort of public evidence or commentary or reporting on Emmett as a player,, as a personality, or his mental health one way or another, there is literally no reason to suggest that it compares to Schache's. In fact, much the opposite - we have to assume that Bevo is picking him precisely because he sees some resilience in the young lad.

 

[TiAn_]

I'm didn't say therefore we should only select young players. You are making a false equivalency.

Ok, sorry if I’ve not paraphrased you correctly.

You said if it were true that playing at AFL level were better for development then we’d play every new draftee from round 1. But that doesn’t follow. We clearly don’t do that for reasons other than development, i.e. trying to win games. The fact we don’t select every new draftee from Rd 1 doesn’t mean it isn’t better development.

That being said, I’m with Mojo in that it’s a tougher learning curve for talls and needs to be a horses for courses approach. There are good arguments both ways, depending on the player, most of which we’re unequipped to know enough to have an opinion on.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

Ok, sorry if I’ve not paraphrased you correctly.

You said if it were true that playing at AFL level were better for development then we’d play every new draftee from round 1. But that doesn’t follow. We clearly don’t do that for reasons other than development, i.e. trying to win games. The fact we don’t select every new draftee from Rd 1 doesn’t mean it isn’t better development.

That being said, I’m with Mojo in that it’s a tougher learning curve for talls and needs to be a horses for courses approach. There are good arguments both ways, depending on the player, most of which we’re unequipped to know enough to have an opinion on.

To the extent that we're prioritising either a first-year, but 19 year old Emmett, compared to a player 18 months older but with 2 extra pre-seasons in a 3rd-year Lachie Smith

and that we know that Emmett was a top 30 draft selection and Smith wasn't

And that both will be weak players until they hit the 30-50 game mark, by the 3rd-5th season in the league

Acting in such a way that we want to prioritise Emmett over Smith, to perhaps the very slight, marginal cost that Smith is marginally, ever so slightly the better player now that we're like, 0.5 points per game better with him in the team compared to Emmett, is just a very weird thing for this board to get its panties in a knot for.

If anything, we should be celebrating the crisitunity that we have that we're giving substantial experienced to a talented young tall - not every talented tall gets that opportunity, and it means that many young players, through inexperience, aren't good players until they're 23/24/25. Emmett might get to 30-50 career games by 20/21 years old, and be a good player a year or two earlier than he otherwise would have been, ahead of expectations. That's a good thing.

 

[Optimistic Dog]

If & when Tim comes back, one our desperate needs along many without Sam is a tall player to compete in the air when coming out of defence. Rory is no Sam but at least he can compete in the air.