Opinion Changes vs Hawks OUT: Ryan Cox IN: Deluca McCarthy

[Scham]

The other point I've been making is that Tabs is being held to a standard that neither Kersten or McCarthy have yet to meet.

Tabs has additional options in that he can act as a backup ruck.

We went in too short against the eagles and I said that before the game. McGovern and Kennedy did what they did in the first derby and we let them do it again. That was poor coaching, pure and simple.

I am of the view I want to win every game. Going in short again, with a poor forward structure isnt giving us the best chance to win. If I was tanking, this is how I would go about it and frankly, not what I want.

Very wise choice of word. He's absolutely hopeless in the ruck.

I don't agree re Kerstin. He played poorly and was dropped as was the case with Tabs. Where Kerstin was lucky was that he came back early due to McCarthy getting suspended. Unlike Tabs though, he hadn't let the MC down on numerous occasions.

I do agree that McCarthy has had a few games that should have seen him dropped and if he hadn't have been suspended I'm sure he would've been. And he's extremely lucky to come straight back in but I think it's only because 1) Cox had to be dropped and 2) the MC are determined to make Tabs earn his spot following his poor attempt to prove himself in the past. And I guess that's at least something Kerstin and McCarthy have got over Tabs - the ability to play more than 2 or 3 decent games in a row.

 

[FreoMonocle]

Some panic stricken stuff in this thread. I must have missed the point at which Matt Taberner became Steve Kernahan.

If you can't be with the one you love, love the one you're with.

We don't have a world class power forward, if we did there would be no grumbles about Tabs being depth.
In absence of anyone else who can <flip a coin> get a mark in the forward line or at least bring it to ground when we bomb the ball yet again, there is no one else apart from Tabs at the moment. Without him in, our opponents are gifted intercept marks and a turnover. Sure, fix the bombing it in issue and give the forwards chest marks and there'd be less hullabaloo, but until we do...

 

[Bicco]

Does anyone else feel kind of ripped off that Hawks have started their rebuild the same time as us after winning 3 flags in a row and will probably already easily have us covered here?
They still have some way to fall when they lose Hodge and Burgoyne but its going to be pretty galling to once again watch them ping it around cleanly while we bunch up and get picked apart by superior kicking.

They've got Clarkson. Hes already rebuilt them once and nobody even noticed.

 

[ydraw]

And I guess that's at least something Kerstin and McCarthy have got over Tabs - the ability to play more than 2 or 3 decent games in a row.

Kersten is yet to play 1 good game in a row.

What it comes down to really is that Taberner is being judged by different standards to Kersten and McCarthy. Taberner is being judged by his ruck ability in addition to his ability as a forward. Kersten and McCarthy don't have to ruck so it doesn't matter if they can't.

Surely the point is that Taberner should be able to be considered for selection purely on his ability as a forward. But Ross Lyon doesn't operate that way. He has Taberner pigeon-holed as a ruck-forward and he won't pick him until he can be competitive in the ruck. The option to pick him as a pure forward doesn't exist in his mind.

In Lyon's mind both Taberner and Cox are competing for the 1 role - that of the ruck forward. Kersten and McCarthy have the other 2 spots for tall forwards all to themselves. Again, there should at least be some scope to consider if Taberner might be a better option than one of them purely as a forward, and certainly by any fair measure he's shown more as a forward than either of them have this year.

But Lyon is only considering Taberner for that 3rd spot, not one of the first 2 spots. And unfortunately for Taberner, the last time he played in the ruck he was a bit of a liability in conceding free kicks in ruck contests (part of the reason for his very high clanger count this season).

This has always been Lyon's biggest fault. He pigeon holes players into very specific roles and he is totally inflexible with those roles. Exact same thing happened to Barlow and is now happening to a certain extent with Crozier too.

 

[imperial_oz]

Very wise choice of word. He's absolutely hopeless in the ruck.

I don't agree re Kerstin. He played poorly and was dropped as was the case with Tabs. Where Kerstin was lucky was that he came back early due to McCarthy getting suspended. Unlike Tabs though, he hadn't let the MC down on numerous occasions.

I do agree that McCarthy has had a few games that should have seen him dropped and if he hadn't have been suspended I'm sure he would've been. And he's extremely lucky to come straight back in but I think it's only because 1) Cox had to be dropped and 2) the MC are determined to make Tabs earn his spot following his poor attempt to prove himself in the past. And I guess that's at least something Kerstin and McCarthy have got over Tabs - the ability to play more than 2 or 3 decent games in a row.

Not sure I agree with all of that. He's nowhere near Hodor or 211 but as a backup he's ok. I agree he'll never be selected for his rucking prowess and if he is, we're in trouble.

Also, I would say he is no more inconsistent that Kersten or McCarthy. If we had a Pavlich up forward, none of the three of them would be in the same class., not even close.

I still think that he's being held to a higher standard than either Kersten of McCarthy and having him forward would give us a better chance to win.

One thing I will say is that all three are being impacted by our poor transitioning into the forward 50 and none of them can really show their best on a more consistent basis. Even so, Tabs height offers more than Kersten's efforts.....in my view

 

[imperial_oz]

If you can't be with the one you love, love the one you're with.

We don't have a world class power forward, if we did there would be no grumbles about Tabs being depth.
In absence of anyone else who can <flip a coin> get a mark in the forward line or at least bring it to ground when we bomb the ball yet again, there is no one else apart from Tabs at the moment. Without him in, our opponents are gifted intercept marks and a turnover. Sure, fix the bombing it in issue and give the forwards chest marks and there'd be less hullabaloo, but until we do...

Exactly. Well put

 

[Righteo]

Nah, I don't think I've melted since round 2 Well not without a smile/wink on my face whilst doing it.

Yes Taberner could have been selected after his last two WAFL performances but as a myriad of posters have said it took a rocket at half time by Roger to get him motivated on the weekend. I truly hope he plays this weekend at Peel (not held over as the emergency) and smashes four quarters and makes the team the following week.

But people seem obsessed with plucking out a couple of stats as if he is some godly forward. The one stat that has been conveniently left out of the conversation is clangers. Taberner has the highest average clangers of all players on our list this season (at 4.8 per game). That's a **** load of turnovers by a key forward who isn't touching the ball that often If people are going to whinge about our defenders (who are under a lot of pressure) turning the ball over then they also need to be critical of any forward who turns the ball over that often. All that hard work getting the ball forward wasted because a forward stuffs it. That's why Tabs needs to work extra hard to earn his selection. And perhaps why McCarthy and Kersten are easier to select - that both have less than half that number per game.

It goes both ways mate, he doesn't deserve to be treated as a pariah either and from my observations those in that category far outnumber his supporters.

 

[Dockernut]

Ros has a new motto: "Play your way out, stay out."

 

[imperial_oz]

Ros has a new motto: "Play your way out, stay out."

How many years did it take Dawson to play his way out?

 

[wayToGo_]

It goes both ways mate, he doesn't deserve to be treated as a pariah either and from my observations those in that category far outnumber his supporters.

Maybe by numbers of people but certainly not by numbers of posts I think those of us that watch him at Peel have been pretty level headed and balanced tbh (I get there are those being completely negative - I don't think people like Salim and I have been - we've just tried to explain what reasons there may be why he isn't being selected). He's not the only player that you'd think they'd been absolute superstars in WAFL games based on their stats alone - when the reality is they've had patches of great football but haven't strung together 4 good quarters yet (and that's what the AFL coaches would be looking at!!!). I think his non-selection will have little to no impact on Freo winning or losing against the Hawks - I don't understand why people are melting so much about it.

 

[Righteo]

Maybe by numbers of people but certainly not by numbers of posts I think those of us that watch him at Peel have been pretty level headed and balanced tbh (I get there are those being completely negative - I don't think people like Salim and I have been - we've just tried to explain what reasons there may be why he isn't being selected). He's not the only player that you'd think they'd been absolute superstars in WAFL games based on their stats alone - when the reality is they've had patches of great football but haven't strung together 4 good quarters yet (and that's what the AFL coaches would be looking at!!!). I think his non-selection will have little to no impact on Freo winning or losing against the Hawks - I don't understand why people are melting so much about it.

The "superstar" stuff is a straw man, ydraw has admitted he's no star on many occasions. To me it seems his/their issue is more a matter of forward structure than it is the player himself. I also think the term "melt" is being overused if not misused something fierce lately. A melt to me is something completely unhinged and irrational, ydraw and imperial_oz etc from what I've seen genuinely attempt to construct sound arguments in favour of his selection, free of vitriol and furnished with stats and examples. I do agree though that the use of stats alone means little and watching him live is far more important, an area I'd give guys like you and salim the edge in. And I also agree on your last sentence.

 

[yoong]

Wow what a party. I'm here to join the melt

I really wanted Taberner in. With 2-3 weeks of big numbers in the WAFL, I thought he really deserved a game, especially when we sorely need a power forward.

I wouldn't drop McCarthy or Kersten though.
Yes, I am also frustrated seeing them get beaten so easily and constantly fumbling with the ball.
But you know what? Despite that, these 2 still managed to kick goals. In fact, they are our 2nd and 3rd highest goal kickers (behind Walters). I'll keep them in the team to see if they can improve their efficiency with the ball. If they can, I think they'll be able to kick more goals. In fact, they should be the main beneficiary when Taberner finally make his way in.

 

[ydraw]

Wow what a party. I'm here to join the melt

I really wanted Taberner in. With 2-3 weeks of big numbers in the WAFL, I thought he really deserved a game, especially when we sorely need a power forward.

I wouldn't drop McCarthy or Kersten though.
Yes, I am also frustrated seeing them get beaten so easily and constantly fumbling with the ball.
But you know what? Despite that, these 2 still managed to kick goals. In fact, they are our 2nd and 3rd highest goal kickers (behind Walters). I'll keep them in the team to see if they can improve their efficiency with the ball. If they can, I think they'll be able to kick more goals. In fact, they should be the main beneficiary when Taberner finally make his way in.

Yes that is the whole point. We kick more goals as a team when we play a proper forward structure. That was the original idea behind the creation of the "The Matt Taberner Effect" thread.

Pavlich was getting double and triple teamed for years before we started to play Taberner. When Taberner played, Pavlich kicked more goals. Taberner was playing effectively as a decoy a lot of that time but the end result was we scored more when he played. And that is entirely because it keeps the opposition defenders honest when they have a tall marking forward that they have to match up on.

 

[meima]

Yes that is the whole point. We kick more goals as a team when we play a proper forward structure. That was the original idea behind the creation of the "The Matt Taberner Effect" thread.

Pavlich was getting double and triple teamed for years before we started to play Taberner. When Taberner played, Pavlich kicked more goals. Taberner was playing effectively as a decoy a lot of that time but the end result was we scored more when he played. And that is entirely because it keeps the opposition defenders honest when they have a tall marking forward that they have to match up on.

I don't disagree with some of your point , but the way Kersten and cam Mac play with their effort if the forward line play badly Tab will be the one send back to wafl again.

 

[DaveLister]

Is Deluca a rookie listed player who has been elevated in someone's absence ?
Or is he on the senior list ?

He is an elevated rookie

 

[meima]

He is an elevated rookie

A pearce injury .

Edited replace apeness with a.pearce.

 

[scon]

A melt to me is something completely unhinged and irrational, ydraw from what I've seen genuinely attempt to construct sound arguments in favour of his selection, free of vitriol and furnished with stats and examples.

This sort of quality?
The Melt
The Melt

 

[Righteo]

This sort of quality?
The Melt
The Melt

Uhhh. Well this is awkward. In my defence I did say "from what Ive seen". I didn't see that

ydraw don't make me look like such an idiot please, even if I do a great job of that myself. Cut that shit out thanks. Even if you're getting needled by others.

 

[scon]

Here's the needle post:
The Melt

 

[imperial_oz]

Here's the needle post:
The Melt

To be fair, I don't think it was you doing the needling but others certainly were.

Then he took your post with the wrong slant

 

[scon]

Correct weight and an habitual slant.

 

[imperial_oz]

Correct weight and an habitual slant.

Maybe but he's been copping a bit and we all react at times

 

[freo1997]

Love the comments mentioning kersten not playing 1 good game. He was pretty impressive against Richmond/Essendon and had serviceable games against Carlton/bulldogs/Kangaroos. We did it with Croad..did it with Tarrant..did it with Anthony. The freo fans ( and the bandwagoners who have hopefully pissed off back to the eagles) have never given a recruited kpf a chance. The media get hold of it, and run with it until they're out.

McCarthy and Kersten are good secondary options in the fwd line. They're not the big kahuna we want. Tabs probably deserved a go, but how many chances has he had. Most goals hes had in a season is 18.. old mate d Parker kicked 16 in a season. There's a striking resemblance in the way those two go/went about their business.

 

[Righteo]

To be fair, I don't think it was you doing the needling but others certainly were.

Then he took your post with the wrong slant

Correct. It's the "hurrr im only here for ydraws tears popcorn.gif" posts that are the main offenders. Adds absolutely nothing and they're designed purely to instigate fights.

 

[M_rash]

Could be an optical illusion, but has Cam been smashing some weights over his mini-break? Certainly hasn't been getting sun!

Will be exciting watching his growth over the coming preseason if he's done this in 2 weeks.