Opinion Changes vs Hawks OUT: Ryan Cox IN: Deluca McCarthy

[DaveLister]

Agree on both counts. The only issue I see with playing with some variation of Weller, Hughes, Crozier, Blakely and Nyhuis is that there isn't really a pure shut down defender for the opposition's small forwards. At the moment Spurr plays that role (to varying degrees of efficacy admittedly) and Nyhuis seems the most likely to take his place, but from what I've heard he's a bit more of a rebounding defender? Could be wrong, just thinking of team balance.

He was definitely lockdown for the year and a bit, his rebound improved drastically this year and his defensive play hasn't suffered for it.

 

[Outshined]

What's the likelihood of Logue forward this week ?
Nyhuis to revert to his natural habitat in defence as the lock down defender.
Blakey/Weller to rotate through

Could do. From memory he looked ok up front in one game (maybe North?) but his goal kicking was a let down and he's struggled to get involved at other times. Adding another player who you'd probably class as a 3rd tall wouldn't do us much good either.

He was definitely lockdown for the year and a bit, his rebound improved drastically this year and his defensive play hasn't suffered for it.

Good to hear. He's definitely got the physical attributes for it.

 

[Taylor]

Logue forward wasn't effective because he marked, it was effective because he manned up a loose tall so they didn't mark uncontested every damn time.

 

[Freo Dr]

Logue doesn't know where to run as a forward and will take a long time to learn I suspect. It stuffs us up badly when we he runs to the same position as our other forwards - i.e. no separation. In defense he can just be responsible for a player. Still more an athlete than a footballer, getting a bit worried about that I guess it takes time. Hopefully will not be another Majak Daw.

 

[fnerd]

Can kinda understand not picking Tabs. He's shown over his short career that he'll play 1, maybe 2 'breakout games' and then regress to crapness the very next week and not play well again during that stint. He'll get dropped until he kicks a bag and then he'll be straight back in repeating the above.

Force him to truly dominate WAFL for 4-5 weeks and hope it translates to AFL when he's finally selected.

So much this....I can't help but laugh at the constant wailing "he never gets a fair run at it" catch cry used by his fan bois

Tabs has had ample opportunity to cement a spot in the team but his form line has followed that strikingly similar pattern(as you be mentioned) EVERY Time he gets recalled.
It's funny one of his supporters favourite arguments is mentioning stats eg his contested marks/goals (esp compared to his peers but ultimately outside of the Brisbane game x2?... where he kicked 5 goals both times and the Essendon game where he was matched up on Matt dea(1 of only 2 top up players Ess kept so vfl standard) and our mids had a field day, how many times has he kicked 3 goals or more?(serious question cause I cbf looking up stats for such an average player)

 

[FreoMonocle]

And Ross has backed Taberner more than anyone. People seem to have very short minds because Taberner has been lambasted by all and sundry in the past and now finally he isn't getting games for whatever reason and people are BEGGING for him to come back! Footy is a fickle game!

The difference though, is we had a #1 forward in Pav, Tabs going to peel wasn't such an issue as a consequence.

At the moment we don't have a credible #1 forward, but out of the possible contenders you can eliminate both Cam and Kersten as it is proven as beyond them, Cox while probably is ultimately a defender for us could do it but is in his first year and not up to it at this level. Ape is injured, MJ could do it but that robs our defence - Dawson could do it, but none of us want to see him with a ball in his hand, Stradnica is still playing reserves and not even at Peel yet. So that leaves?

 

[meima]

The difference though, is we had a #1 forward in Pav, Tabs going to peel wasn't such an issue as a consequence.

At the moment we don't have a credible #1 forward, but out of the possible contenders you can eliminate both Cam and Kersten as it is proven as beyond them, Cox while probably is ultimately a defender for us could do it but is in his first year and not up to it at this level. Ape is injured, MJ could do it but that robs our defence - Dawson could do it, but none of us want to see him with a ball in his hand, Stradnica is still playing reserves and not even at Peel yet. So that leaves?

Griffin .

 

[FreoMonocle]

Forgot him, not sure if I was willfully ignorant or just forgetful

Collins and Logue as well.

 

[imperial_oz]

No doubt Hawks hold their forward structure better than us but you are absolutely kidding yourself if you think they play an abundance of talls for the sake of it. They have always been reliant on ball movement. Clarkson actually likes to rotate players all over the ground.

While true, you underestimate the value of holding that forward structure, particularly when the Hawks hit targets far better then we do.

A true tall player has much greater value for a team that tends to put the ball in high rather than hit leads.

If you go smaller, you need to have a forward structure that allows players to lead into space and you then have to honour those leads. If you go smaller and continue to bomb it in high, then you'll see more stupid stuff like large numbers of intercept marks in out forward 50, like last week.

You simply don't get away with going in smaller and have those guys forced to compete in the air. It doesn't work.

 

[meima]

While true, you underestimate the value of holding that forward structure, particularly when the Hawks hit targets far better then we do.

A true tall player has much greater value for a team that tends to put the ball in high rather than hit leads.

If you go smaller, you need to have a forward structure that allows players to lead into space and you then have to honour those leads. If you go smaller and continue to bomb it in high, then you'll see more stupid stuff like large numbers of intercept marks in out forward 50, like last week.

You simply don't get away with going in smaller and have those guys forced to compete in the air. It doesn't work.

Structure and game plan problem .

 

[Kenny_01]

While true, you underestimate the value of holding that forward structure, particularly when the Hawks hit targets far better then we do.

A true tall player has much greater value for a team that tends to put the ball in high rather than hit leads.

If you go smaller, you need to have a forward structure that allows players to lead into space and you then have to honour those leads. If you go smaller and continue to bomb it in high, then you'll see more stupid stuff like large numbers of intercept marks in out forward 50, like last week.

You simply don't get away with going in smaller and have those guys forced to compete in the air. It doesn't work.

Completely agree. Ross sounds like his main thing with Kersten is competing in the air, not being outmarked and bringing ball to ground.

I am not a fan of small forward lines btw. I would prefer Cox/McCarthy and then 1 more tall, pref a ruck forward but for the minute we have Kersten. I was only defending the coaches staff non selection of Taberner and that you don't NEED to have a 200cm forward in your side. If you had a Tom Lynch or Charlie Dixon then of course they would be in. But when Tabs is the only option, I'll back the coaching staff to decide who is better out of Kersten and Taberner.

 

[Taylor]

If we are going to have most of our inside fifties comes from rebounds then we won't have our forwards in position, we need to be smarter kicking the ball to space in front of our rushing back forwards and not kick short to the space being closed down by multiple defenders.

Alternatively we could hold up play with a mark at half forward and let them all fill the space and then try a set play but I think dropping the ball in space will let us compete to score.

Kick inside fifty to space - worst case it is turned over from a ground ball collect but we will have set up to defend that kick up the ground by then, best case we run onto it and kick for goal, probably the percentage result here is that it is a ball up and we do alright with stoppages.

I'd rather kick inside fifty for a stoppage than turn it over at half forward.

 

[imperial_oz]

Completely agree. Ross sounds like his main thing with Kersten is competing in the air, not being outmarked and bringing ball to ground.

I am not a fan of small forward lines btw. I would prefer Cox/McCarthy and then 1 more tall, pref a ruck forward but for the minute we have Kersten. I was only defending the coaches staff non selection of Taberner and that you don't NEED to have a 200cm forward in your side. If you had a Tom Lynch or Charlie Dixon then of course they would be in. But when Tabs is the only option, I'll back the coaching staff to decide who is better out of Kersten and Taberner.

You don't NEED a 200 cm forward if you have leading forwards and honour the leads. You do NEED a 200 cm forward if you face good intercept markers and you bomb the ball inhigh.

If you go short and bomb it in, then expect to watch it go back out again

 

[meima]

Kersten is one trick player. Geelong had black to cover his role show that he is just a depth player mainly playing VFL if freo don't offer him a contract . He is just Geelong Chris mayne with freo maybe paying less than what Collingwood offer to mayne .

Ross like to recycle so so player
Suban ,ballas slowly but surely back to his best 22 line up.

 

[Outshined]

While true, you underestimate the value of holding that forward structure, particularly when the Hawks hit targets far better then we do.

A true tall player has much greater value for a team that tends to put the ball in high rather than hit leads.

If you go smaller, you need to have a forward structure that allows players to lead into space and you then have to honour those leads. If you go smaller and continue to bomb it in high, then you'll see more stupid stuff like large numbers of intercept marks in out forward 50, like last week.

You simply don't get away with going in smaller and have those guys forced to compete in the air. It doesn't work.

Pretty much spot on. I can live with us trying out a small forward line in the short term if we believe rightly or wrongly that our most talented forwards are all undersized, but I can't deal with our our midfielders then continually hoofing it forward and relying on a 192cm player outmarking a KPD 2 inches taller and 10kgs heavier. It's equally galling watching the better teams waltz it out of our defense when at the very least we should have an advantage at ground level. Obviously better opposition defenses will be equipped to deal with short entries/lead up play, but at least if we are getting cut off trying to kick to a forward running at the ball with only one player marking him, it'll represent a step in the right direction

Realistically though, you can't place all of the blame on the midfielders. A fair few times they simply don't have a 'good' option. I think it's a pretty shocking combo of terrible kicking/decision making (which is odd because with people like Brad/Steph Hill, Weller and Mundy delivering the ball, we should have no trouble) and also poor use of the 50 by our forwards who love getting in each others way, not screening and not making space.

 

[Taylor]

Kersten is very fast, he should be sprinting back to goal while the defender trails him, for our midfielder to drop the ball in front of him.

 

[imperial_oz]

Pretty much spot on. I can live with us trying out a small forward line in the short term if we believe rightly or wrongly that our most talented forwards are all undersized, but I can't deal with our our midfielders then continually hoofing it forward and relying on a 192cm player outmarking a KPD 2 inches taller and 10kgs heavier. It's equally galling watching the better teams waltz it out of our defense when at the very least we should have an advantage at ground level. Obviously better opposition defenses will be equipped to deal with short entries/lead up play, but at least if we are getting cut off trying to kick to a forward running at the ball with only one player marking him, it'll represent a step in the right direction

Realistically though, you can't place all of the blame on the midfielders. A fair few times they simply don't have a 'good' option. I think it's a pretty shocking combo of terrible kicking/decision making (which is odd because with people like Brad/Steph Hill, Weller and Mundy delivering the ball, we should have no trouble) and also poor use of the 50 by our forwards who love getting in each others way, not screening and not making space.

...and that is exactly my point.

It's not a one dimensional issue. Its a combination of factors that we seem to get wrong in the worst way possible.

1. We do have mids with the requisite kicking skills but often there is nobody forward to provide a lead.
2. With no lead or indeed nobody in the forward 50 at all, we have to hoof it into the forward 50 or get caught HTB
3. 192 cm lighter built forwards generally don't do well against taller heavier defenders and its unfair to expect otherwise.

Bigger bodied players like Fyfe have generally shown themselves to be better marks up forward rather than Kersten or McCarthy for obvious reasons

If we go in shorter, we need to keep a stay at home forward structure. If we don't then we need to put bigger, stronger, taller guys forward to allow them to compete. Unfortunately, we go in smaller and have them race defenders back inside the forward 50 where they are generally forced to compete against bigger players or bigger numbers. That makes scoring much harder.

 

[imperial_oz]

Kersten is very fast, he should be sprinting back to goal while the defender trails him, for our midfielder to drop the ball in front of him.

Yeah but Kersten generally jogs

 

[meima]

Yeah but Kersten generally jogs

And fumble .

 

[beetz]

Or Nyhuis does? Agree would prefer ATM for Crozier to go back but it is not a certainty.

Yep, good point, or Nyhuis. He'd be most likely I'd say.

 

[FreoRicci]

So the super Saturday of Peel v Subi, followed by Freo v Hawthorn. Both on free to air.

At least get to watch Tabs either way

 

[yakka man]

Man, this Taberner talk is getting tiresome. I will say this though, it's not very inspirational for players when a player like Suban has two 16 disposal games in the WAFL and gets promoted and another has two 25 disposal games and 5 & 6 goals and doesn't make the team. Especially when we're crying out for effectiveness in his position.

 

[kingswood71]

So much this....I can't help but laugh at the constant wailing "he never gets a fair run at it" catch cry used by his fan bois
Tabs has had ample opportunity to cement a spot in the team but his form line has followed that strikingly similar pattern(as you be mentioned) EVERY Time he gets recalled.
It's funny one of his supporters favourite arguments is mentioning stats eg his contested marks/goals (esp compared to his peers but ultimately outside of the Brisbane game x2?... where he kicked 5 goals both times and the Essendon game where he was matched up on Matt dea(1 of only 2 top up players Ess kept so vfl standard) and our mids had a field day, how many times has he kicked 3 goals or more?(serious question cause I cbf looking up stats for such an average player)

Another way to look at it would be: How many games has he played in where he hasnt kicked at least one goal at AFL level??....

 

[fnerd]

Another way to look at it would be: How many games has he played in where he hasnt kicked at least one goal at AFL level??....

Yeah look I'm clearly not a tabs fan but as a freo fan I'd love for him To "make it"at AFL level but I just can't,for the life of me understand the hysteria his non selection causes some of our supporters.

It really is an indictment on our clubs position (lack of kpf's) when Mathew Taberner's held up as some sort of 'saviour' to our fwd line woes

I asked that question (about how many times he's kicked 3 goals or more in a game,hell make it 2 goals if you want)because so many of his fan bois first call to arms is "well kersten/McCarthy etc 'only'kicked 1/2 goals and got x/y amount of possessions,conveniently ignoring the fact tabs is not exactlysome kind of goal scoring machine/high possession winner himself ...tho the way some carry on you could be mistaken into thinking he was.

 

[kingswood71]

Yeah look I'm clearly not a tabs fan but as a freo fan I'd love for him To "make it"at AFL level but I just can't,for the life of me understand the hysteria his non selection causes some of our supporters.

It really is an indictment on our clubs position (lack of kpf's) when Mathew Taberner's held up as some sort of 'saviour' to our fwd line woes

I asked that question (about how many times he's kicked 3 goals or more in a game,hell make it 2 goals if you want)because so many of his fan bois first call to arms is "well kersten/McCarthy etc 'only'kicked 1/2 goals and got x/y amount of possessions,conveniently ignoring the fact tabs is not exactlysome kind of goal scoring machine/high possession winner himself ...tho the way some carry on you could be mistaken into thinking he was.

I appreciate your points
I guess people who think Tabs should be in are simply wondering why not when Kersten seems to have been given games, yet is probably less consistent than Tabs over the course of their careers.
Tabs has kicked at least a goal in 33 of his 50 games....while by no means outstanding, it does show that he is at least a little capable
I dont see Tabs as a saviour, but when I have seen his games (all 50 of them!) he makes a contest, even when he doesnt seem to play well. This is what I struggle with...The fact that we are bombing it in all the time would benefit Kersten/Balla/Son Son etc as at least he brings the ball to ground.
I would love to know the KPI targets for Tabs and wonder which ones are down and leading to him not getting games...