Changes vs Saints Round 20

[BRWB]

Agree we all wanted a lot more from him as one of our more experienced and most highly credentialled players. However only three weeks ago we voted him BoG in the Ching.

He has things to work on for sure, but I'm prepared to give him another chance. He'll know he's let a lot of people down. It'll be worth watching to see how he approaches the contest on Saturday.

Nice to be positive but JJ goes to water whenever he gets physical pressure or even attention. He has repeatedly dropped his head and his bundle.

No doubt he will good again when we are. Definition of a frontrunner.

Dahl's effort has been questionable for awhile and only turned up for his interview with Geelong.

Libba's, Stringer's and Dunkley's efforts were pathetic last yr.

Biggs is a disgrace.

A lot of pathetic efforts. Been hard to watch really.

A wounded Bont, Macrae, Hunter, Morris and a bunch of kids having a go.

JJ stands out the most though. Relative to other players, he really is weak as piss.

 

[dergert]

Why the hell did we bring Roberts in last week to drop him this week?
Can't use the team balance line as he did not have a suitable match up last week.

 

[Leon]

So...

Out: JJ, Honey, Roughead and Daniel
In: Bodicifer , SCRAY72 , mambavino and my good self....

I’m doubtful for this week but a certainty to be included the week after against Norf.

 

[dogwatch]

Nice to be positive but JJ goes to water whenever he gets physical pressure or even attention. He has repeatedly dropped his head and his bundle.

No doubt he will good again when we are. Definition of a frontrunner.

Dahl's effort has been questionable for awhile and only turned up for his interview with Geelong.

Libba's, Stringer's and Dunkley's efforts were pathetic last yr.

Biggs is a disgrace.

A lot of pathetic efforts. Been hard to watch really.

A wounded Bont, Macrae, Hunter, Morris and a bunch of kids having a go.

JJ stands out the most though. Relative to other players, he really is weak as piss.

I was only looking through the recent games ... and still struggle to find many I could question. As you say it's mostly a hard core of reliable players and a bunch of kids.

Libba and Stringer were last year so that's a separate issue, and Dunkley is a different player right now, whatever might have been going on with him in 2017.

I'll grant you Biggs' 2018 form has been shocking so you have to wonder what's going on. Dahl's production has been well down but nothing like Biggs. If he's genuinely planning to be at another club next year maybe the charge is justified, but we won't know for a few weeks yet. Maybe he was just struggling with injury? JJ I've already discussed.

I'll acknowledge some players' preparation is always going to be better than others. Matty Boyd's was legendary. I guess you could argue that at some point down the scale a less meticulous preparation becomes inadequate for professional standards. But is it possible for us to say with reasonable certainty who if any has failed to reach that threshold? What other factors - mental or physical - might be affecting their form?

My difficulty is if we are saying: their form is way down, ergo they don't GAF. Apart from cheating, PED-taking, gambling against your own team or eye-gouging there aren't many worse allegations you can make against a player. So we'd want solid grounds for saying it. Is there good evidence?

Or is it just venting our frustration with them?

 

[BRWB]

I was only looking through the recent games ... and still struggle to find many I could question. As you say it's mostly a hard core of reliable players and a bunch of kids.

Libba and Stringer were last year so that's a separate issue, and Dunkley is a different player right now, whatever might have been going on with him in 2017.

I'll grant you Biggs' 2018 form has been shocking so you have to wonder what's going on. Dahl's production has been well down but nothing like Biggs. If he's genuinely planning to be at another club next year maybe the charge is justified, but we won't know for a few weeks yet. Maybe he was just struggling with injury? JJ I've already discussed.

I'll acknowledge some players' preparation is always going to be better than others. Matty Boyd's was legendary. I guess you could argue that at some point down the scale a less meticulous preparation becomes inadequate for professional standards. But is it possible for us to say with reasonable certainty who if any has failed to reach that threshold? What other factors - mental or physical - might be affecting their form?

My difficulty is if we are saying: their form is way down, ergo they don't GAF. Apart from cheating, PED-taking, gambling against your own team or eye-gouging there aren't many worse allegations you can make against a player. So we'd want solid grounds for saying it. Is there good evidence?

Or is it just venting our frustration with them?

A flag team two yrs ago based on an effort game plan that had stacks of injuries.

Minimal list changes since (the least in the comp) and now bottom four with stacks of injuries.

Effort should be questioned. Anyone saying there is a flag hangover is effectively questioning effort.

The plateuing or going backwards of young players for two years also makes me question effort.

To answer your question, do I have certainty or evidence that effort has dropped - only results and what my eyes tell me.

 

[TiAn_]

I posted somewhere during the week that our KPD setup wasn't working and needed addressing, as it was hampering our ability to move the ball and attack, so I guess I got my wish. Roberts and Adams out and Dickson and Jong in means we have two extra players that are useful when we have the ball (subject to Jong's disposal), and can impact the scoreboard.

Smith for Honeychurch just takes a problem in the front half and moves it to the back half. I'm still waiting to see some signs from Smith that give me a hint as to what he could bring to a good team. I was under the impression from VFL watchers that he played like Easton - perhaps this week he can have an impact overhead.

Excited to see Cordy & Naughton take on the responsibility to hold down the defence, under Moz's eye.

 

[dogwatch]

A flag team two yrs ago based on an effort game plan that had stacks of injuries.

Minimal list changes since (the least in the comp) and now bottom four with stacks of injuries.

Effort should be questioned. Anyone saying there is a flag hangover is effectively questioning effort.

The plateuing or going backwards of young players for two years also makes me question effort.

To answer your question, do I have certainty or evidence that effort has dropped - only results and what my eyes tell me.

Fair enough. Maybe it comes down to semantics.

It's like match preparation (the Boyd example). Some try incredibly hard, others somewhat less, for whatever reason. We probably don't differ much if that's what you're saying.

However I think it's a different thing to say certain players "couldn't GAF" - I know they weren't your words - which suggests a deliberate (and contemptible) lack of concern for club, fan and teammates. A conscious decision not to try hard.

WallyStringhaus talks about "hunger" and I can accept that the hunger isn't always there (even if it should be), but that's not the same as flagrantly not G'ingAF.

 

[BRWB]

I posted somewhere during the week that our KPD setup wasn't working and needed addressing, as it was hampering our ability to move the ball and attack, so I guess I got my wish. Roberts and Adams out and Dickson and Jong in means we have two extra players that are useful when we have the ball (subject to Jong's disposal), and can impact the scoreboard.

Smith for Honeychurch just takes a problem in the front half and moves it to the back half. I'm still waiting to see some signs from Smith that give me a hint as to what he could bring to a good team. I was under the impression from VFL watchers that he played like Easton - perhaps this week he can have an impact overhead.

Excited to see Cordy & Naughton take on the responsibility to hold down the defence, under Moz's eye.

Good points. We need to settle on a back six. Picking too many KPDs each week has been strange.

Jong will at least have a crack, isnt a midget and isnt as incompetent as Honeychurch.

 

[BRWB]

Fair enough. Maybe it comes down to semantics.

It's like match preparation (the Boyd example). Some try incredibly hard, others somewhat less, for whatever reason. We probably don't differ much if that's what you're saying.

However I think it's a different thing to say certain players "couldn't GAF" - I know they weren't your words - which suggests a deliberate (and contemptible) lack of concern for club, fan and teammates. A conscious decision not to try hard.

WallyStringhaus talks about "hunger" and I can accept that the hunger isn't always there (even if it should be), but that's not the same as flagrantly not G'ingAF.

Semantics but Id suggest some players clearly dont give enough of a F#ck.

JJ just drops his bundle if he cops any attention. Its pathetic and embarassing that a Norm Smith medalist plays like a spoilt but talented U12. Where is his sense of personal pride let alone pride in his club? His 'efforts' for quite some time have been contemptible.

Caleb Daniel needs to take a good hard look at himself as well, way too young and talented to have gone backwards as much as he has.

The relative lack of interest from the fanatics who post here is as much about disappointment in perceived effort as it is performance IMO.

 

[Bodicifer]

So...

Out: JJ, Honey, Roughead and Daniel
In: Bodicifer , SCRAY72 , mambavino and my good self....

I'll play out of the square

 

[The Original Swooper]

Nobody can accuse us of tanking. We dropped Honeychurch.

 

[Draft Pick]

Nice to be positive but JJ goes to water whenever he gets physical pressure or even attention. He has repeatedly dropped his head and his bundle.

No doubt he will good again when we are. Definition of a frontrunner.

Dahl's effort has been questionable for awhile and only turned up for his interview with Geelong.

Libba's, Stringer's and Dunkley's efforts were pathetic last yr.

Biggs is a disgrace.

A lot of pathetic efforts. Been hard to watch really.

A wounded Bont, Macrae, Hunter, Morris and a bunch of kids having a go.

JJ stands out the most though. Relative to other players, he really is weak as piss.

Dunkley had shoulder surgery early last year and missed most of the season.

 

[BRWB]

Dunkley had shoulder surgery early last year and missed most of the season.

True but he was dropped from the GF team and along with Clay Smith didnt get picked until Rd 4 2017 in part due to questions on his preseason. All that before the shoulder injury IIRC.

 

[TedDougChris]

I'll play out of the square

I will need to interchange before I get to my starting position....

 

[Ghenghis]

Jong was part of a group put through a punishing session in Ballarat last week on an adjoining oval, punishing.

How punishing? Did they have to watch the seniors play?

 

[mambavino]

I'll play out of the square

I'll play as an undersized ruck that gets f*ck all hitouts. I think it would fit well with our typical game plan.

 

[BRWB]

I'll play as an undersized ruck that gets f*ck all hitouts. I think it would fit well with our typical game plan.

Being slow and zero marks would be a fantastic fit if you could manage that.

 

[dish licker]

Even though we are above them they should win as they are 7/8 years into a rebuild and desperate for a win, Bevo throwing the team around to assess who stays, who goes. Senior players struggling to hold the kids together, if things go our way we can get pick 3. Plenty to like for those who are part of our future.

 

[lachy]

It is sad, but really don't care if we win or lose against the Saints as nothing is riding on it.

If we do win hope its on the back of some of the younger boys stepping up

 

[Tommycash]

Good ins for mine. Can Jong find some end of year form, Dickson some continuity? Roberts papers are stamped.

In respect of JJ being down last week, look at where we played him. He was playing forward for a lot of the game when we weren't really getting the ball in there. Poor use of personnel but we probably went in with too many tall defenders and nowhere to put them. He and Daniel survive because we are just so low on players who can replace them.

 

[mambavino]

Being slow and zero marks would be a fantastic fit if you could manage that.

 

[Yojimbo]

How punishing? Did they have to watch the seniors play?

That would border on cruelty, I said punishing. The session went for over an hour.

 

[Proffessor]

It is sad, but really don't care if we win or lose against the Saints as nothing is riding on it.

If we do win hope its on the back of some of the younger boys stepping up

So if they actually contribute a reasonable amount, they get credit for the win, but if they do bugger all as usual then the senior players cop the blame?

Sounds typical.

 

[Leon]

Nice to be positive but JJ goes to water whenever he gets physical pressure or even attention. He has repeatedly dropped his head and his bundle.

No doubt he will good again when we are. Definition of a frontrunner.

Dahl's effort has been questionable for awhile and only turned up for his interview with Geelong.

Libba's, Stringer's and Dunkley's efforts were pathetic last yr.

Biggs is a disgrace.

A lot of pathetic efforts. Been hard to watch really.

A wounded Bont, Macrae, Hunter, Morris and a bunch of kids having a go.

JJ stands out the most though. Relative to other players, he really is weak as piss.

I completely agree with you that JJ is a front runner.

I’m struggling to think of one good game he’s played since 2016.

The thing is though, teams actually need front runners. In the same way people are derisive of outside/receiving players, they don’t realize that the team needs them - you can’t have a Daniel Cross at the bottom of the pack fishing the ball out to another Daniel Cross. In the same way, you need the front runners to be shining when the tide changes in our favor.

Front runners like JJ stick out like a sore thumb when the team sucks like we do at the moment but whenever we come good again JJ’s form will go up again, guaranteed.

On the other players you mentioned:

Biggs - Agreed have been very disappointed with him. I didn’t think he was too bad in 2017 but this year he’s been awful in the games he’s played. It’s unfortunate as he was a real hero in 2016 - we all remember that bit of play in the GF - but given his form this year, not sure what the club will do with him.

Libba - Was well down to say the least in 2017, but his injury in Round 1 was a disaster for us. I’m not sure how much difference he would have made this year if he hadn’t got injured, but we’d all prefer him out there obviously.

Stringer - Haven’t seen a lot of Essendon this year but from what I have seen he’s more or less the same as 2017 for us - a few good moments and games followed by even more moments of mediocrity and poor efforts. I tend to think the club made the right call in getting rid of him.

Dunkley - I don’t think he’s had too bad a season this year. He’s not in the category of Bont, Macrae, Toby and Ed in players that have performed for us this year but he has been ok. His game against Port was much better.

 

[The Inbetweener]

Don’t really understand how English hasn’t been picked. More games into him the better