Opinion Club History: Hawthorn's Mt.Rushmore

[Guardian Hawk]

If Mitch wins 1 premiership as coach (along with 1 as captain and 3 as a player), does that move him above Hodge with 3 premierships as captain (2 Norms to boot)?

Hodge is the popular choice here but for me I would already have Mitchell slightly ahead for overall contribution to the club (both absolute champions hard to split of course).

Both played in 4 flags with Mitch captaining 1 and Hodge captaining 3. Hodge probably ahead for leadership as a player.

However, Mitchell won 5 B&F's to Hodge's 2 and Mitchell was top 3 nearly every single season. Mitchell was definately the more consistent of the 2 (elite every season and close to every game whereas Hodge had elite season and elite games but also had just "ok/good" seasons and plenty more quiet games). Mitchell was also the harder worker/trainer of the 2 - setting standards (learnt from Crawford) in that regard whilst Hodge was a footy genius and ultra versatile but did battle for fitness at times.

Hodge is rightly lauded for his Norm Smiths but there is no doubt on overall records that Mitchell was still (marginally) the better finals player overall. Mitchell himself was runner up in the Norm twice, got first tag in every final bar 1 (when Hodge was held against Freo in 2010) and won Hawthorn's player of the finals in both 2014 and 2015 (with his record for most possies in a finals series in 2014 still standing). All up, Mitchell played 24 finals for Hawthorn and collected 29+ disposals in a staggering 17 of them, being best on or close to in nearly all of those. His only "quiet" finals were the result of a hard and dedicated tag (Ling, Crowley, etc). Hodge also played some incredible match winning finals (not just the 2 Grannies) but had his fair share of quiet finals (without attracting a tag).

On playing career, I lean Mitchell but it really is just a preference matter and I understand the preference for Hodge.

Post playing career, however, seperates them further for me. Mitchell was our reigning best and fairest winner and we asked him to go interstate. He wanted to stay but he agreed as he wanted the best for the club AND was keen to return in a coaching capacity (having been asked to get experience elsewhere first). Hoge retired and then came out of retirement to join Brisbane. Hodge is still in Brisbane and is now in the media (nothing wrong with any of that of course). Mitchell, however, returned to the club as soon as he could. He has already coached our VFL and identified a number of key players to improve our next phase. He is obviously also now coaching the club and doing everything he can (supposedly a workaholic) to try and deliver Hawthorn's next period of success. Different types of people obviously but it's clear Mitchell is still ultra driven to deliver Hawthorn success and is working hard at doing so in the most influential role he can.

 

[wizzard400]

The list of people that could go on the Hawks Mt Rushmore is a long one. We could discuss this until the cows come home.

John Kennedy Snr
Leigh Matthews
Jason Dunstall
Luke Hodge

I think it's those 4 for me. Those four were not only influential at Hawthorn but across the entire game of football.

 

[lyger]

Hodge is the popular choice here but for me I would already have Mitchell slightly ahead for overall contribution to the club (both absolute champions hard to split of course).

Both played in 4 flags with Mitch captaining 1 and Hodge captaining 3. Hodge probably ahead for leadership as a player.

However, Mitchell won 5 B&F's to Hodge's 2 and Mitchell was top 3 nearly every single season. Mitchell was definately the more consistent of the 2 (elite every season and close to every game whereas Hodge had elite season and elite games but also had just "ok/good" seasons and plenty more quiet games). Mitchell was also the harder worker/trainer of the 2 - setting standards (learnt from Crawford) in that regard whilst Hodge was a footy genius and ultra versatile but did battle for fitness at times.

Hodge is rightly lauded for his Norm Smiths but there is no doubt on overall records that Mitchell was still (marginally) the better finals player overall. Mitchell himself was runner up in the Norm twice, got first tag in every final bar 1 (when Hodge was held against Freo in 2010) and won Hawthorn's player of the finals in both 2014 and 2015 (with his record for most possies in a finals series in 2014 still standing). All up, Mitchell played 24 finals for Hawthorn and collected 29+ disposals in a staggering 17 of them, being best on or close to in nearly all of those. His only "quiet" finals were the result of a hard and dedicated tag (Ling, Crowley, etc). Hodge also played some incredible match winning finals (not just the 2 Grannies) but had his fair share of quiet finals (without attracting a tag).

On playing career, I lean Mitchell but it really is just a preference matter and I understand the preference for Hodge.

Post playing career, however, seperates them further for me. Mitchell was our reigning best and fairest winner and we asked him to go interstate. He wanted to stay but he agreed as he wanted the best for the club AND was keen to return in a coaching capacity (having been asked to get experience elsewhere first). Hoge retired and then came out of retirement to join Brisbane. Hodge is still in Brisbane and is now in the media (nothing wrong with any of that of course). Mitchell, however, returned to the club as soon as he could. He has already coached our VFL and identified a number of key players to improve our next phase. He is obviously also now coaching the club and doing everything he can (supposedly a workaholic) to try and deliver Hawthorn's next period of success. Different types of people obviously but it's clear Mitchell is still ultra driven to deliver Hawthorn success and is working hard at doing so in the most influential role he can.

Great write up.

 

[Bedi]

And no mention of Tuck at all.

If i picked Tuck someone would say no Dipper?

 

[Bedi]

No love for Parkin in the 70s?

Was going to slot him in the 60s as he won the BnF in '65, but was either him or Peter Knights. Feel like Crimmins needs to be up there.

 

[FB19]

Hodge is regency bias. His legacy to hawthorn isn’t as strong as others it may be seen that way in time. Especially if his kids come to hawks and are good!
You can’t sit him up next to Matthews Dunstall or Tuck and Mitchell will potentially go past him adding senior coach to his contribution. If you have 2 players you need at least one coach and you have to have Scott or Dicker or we simply wouldn’t exist.

 

[moginie]

If i picked Tuck someone would say no Dipper?

But you did pick Crawford twice.

I know that it isn't easy given who we've had on the field and behind the scenes, but you've done a good job.

 

[Manila_Hawk]

Hodge is regency bias. His legacy to hawthorn isn’t as strong as others it may be seen that way in time. Especially if his kids come to hawks and are good!
You can’t sit him up next to Matthews Dunstall or Tuck and Mitchell will potentially go past him adding senior coach to his contribution. If you have 2 players you need at least one coach and you have to have Scott or Dicker or we simply wouldn’t exist.

FB19 ... does regency bias mean that we are ranking Hodge so highly because he was the King ?

 

[FB19]

FB19 ... does regency bias mean that we are ranking Hodge so highly because he was the King ?

I live in the UK so yes that is the case. Now be off with you back to your quarters lest you feel the wrath of my vorpal (not worpel) sword!

 

[Philhawk]

Hodge is the popular choice here but for me I would already have Mitchell slightly ahead for overall contribution to the club (both absolute champions hard to split of course).

Both played in 4 flags with Mitch captaining 1 and Hodge captaining 3. Hodge probably ahead for leadership as a player.

However, Mitchell won 5 B&F's to Hodge's 2 and Mitchell was top 3 nearly every single season. Mitchell was definately the more consistent of the 2 (elite every season and close to every game whereas Hodge had elite season and elite games but also had just "ok/good" seasons and plenty more quiet games). Mitchell was also the harder worker/trainer of the 2 - setting standards (learnt from Crawford) in that regard whilst Hodge was a footy genius and ultra versatile but did battle for fitness at times.

Hodge is rightly lauded for his Norm Smiths but there is no doubt on overall records that Mitchell was still (marginally) the better finals player overall. Mitchell himself was runner up in the Norm twice, got first tag in every final bar 1 (when Hodge was held against Freo in 2010) and won Hawthorn's player of the finals in both 2014 and 2015 (with his record for most possies in a finals series in 2014 still standing). All up, Mitchell played 24 finals for Hawthorn and collected 29+ disposals in a staggering 17 of them, being best on or close to in nearly all of those. His only "quiet" finals were the result of a hard and dedicated tag (Ling, Crowley, etc). Hodge also played some incredible match winning finals (not just the 2 Grannies) but had his fair share of quiet finals (without attracting a tag).

On playing career, I lean Mitchell but it really is just a preference matter and I understand the preference for Hodge.

Post playing career, however, seperates them further for me. Mitchell was our reigning best and fairest winner and we asked him to go interstate. He wanted to stay but he agreed as he wanted the best for the club AND was keen to return in a coaching capacity (having been asked to get experience elsewhere first). Hoge retired and then came out of retirement to join Brisbane. Hodge is still in Brisbane and is now in the media (nothing wrong with any of that of course). Mitchell, however, returned to the club as soon as he could. He has already coached our VFL and identified a number of key players to improve our next phase. He is obviously also now coaching the club and doing everything he can (supposedly a workaholic) to try and deliver Hawthorn's next period of success. Different types of people obviously but it's clear Mitchell is still ultra driven to deliver Hawthorn success and is working hard at doing so in the most influential role he can.

Lovely post, mate.

 

[phlogiston]

So, I'm guessing with the recent news, Jacob Koschitzke won't be on there?

 

[MightyHawks]

As hard as this exercise is, I pesonally believe Dunstall is non-negotiable.

Just too young to have caught peak Matthews, Dunstall is the best player I've seen at Hawthorn. I would argue Hawthorn of '88/'89 was the best team the game has ever seen and Dunstall won the best and fairest both years. He was our best player through 4 flags, won the B&F 4 times, won the league MVP, was runner up in the Brownlow as a key forward, won 3 Colemans during the zenith of goalkicking eras and kicked over 300 more goals than any other Hawk.

The above reasons, as compelling as they are, are NOT the reason I have chosen him though. He played full forward in an era where full forwards were the "main man" and cocky as hell (Capper, Modra, Ablett, etc), when they used intimidation and on field violence as a tool to get an edge (Ablett, Lockett, etc) and almost always were not really the hardest trainers or the biggest team players. Dunstall, on the other hand, was the consumate professional and the hardest trainer at the club, despite already being the best player. He also played with utmost fairness, never barrelling through players unnecessarily (even though it provides onfield advantages) and was never suspended. He bled for the club and was the ultimate team player, giving off 100's of goals and chasing hard, decades before that was normal. He also came back time and time again from gruelling injuries that would have ended the careers of most players at the time. He cared about the team above all else and was the only full forward of that era to even be considered for leadership, let alone be named captain. He captained, guided and faced the public with absolute professionalism through the worst part of our history - the merger. I truly believe the way he presented the club and himself was a pivotol part of the Hawthorn no vote and avoiding the merger (alongside Scott).

Those reasons are probably enough but they aren't all. Post career he stayed involved - as usual, in the background. Then, at our lowest on field ebb and in leadership (2004), he stepped in as interim CEO. He immediately made the hard calls and cleaned up some fueding factions on the board. The board also wanted Gary Ayers as coach but he made the executive - and highly criticised call - to appoint Clarkson instead. Once the mess was cleaned up and he found a new coach and new CEO, he stepped back in his typical humble fashion and served as a board member. He stayed on util the end of 2013 when the transformation was complete and club was again the best in the land. In many ways, you can attribute the 4 flags won under Clarko to the decision making of Dunstall - who was now directly involved in 8 flags and captained the club through the anti-meger.

I have no doubt that if the club were to crumble again (doubtful), he would step in and right the ship once more. Legend of the club and deserving of a place on Hawthorn Mt Rushmore.

Quoting this so we can all read it twice.

Is Dunstall number #2 behind John Kennedy Snr?

 

[The Golden Glenferrie]

As hard as this exercise is, I pesonally believe Dunstall is non-negotiable.

100%.

 

[flinchfree]

Sticking to players.....

Matthews
Knights
Dunstall
Platten

Next 4
Hudson
Buddy
Sammy
Crawford

 

[Bedi]

So, I'm guessing with the recent news, Jacob Koschitzke won't be on there?

He'll be on Mt Crapmore

 

[SSSSSS]

I'll carve Dodoro myself.

 

[Todman]

Hodge is rightly lauded for his Norm Smiths but there is no doubt on overall records that Mitchell was still (marginally) the better finals player overall. Mitchell himself was runner up in the Norm twice, got first tag in every final bar 1 (when Hodge was held against Freo in 2010) and won Hawthorn's player of the finals in both 2014 and 2015 (with his record for most possies in a finals series in 2014 still standing).

In 2008 had Clinton Young not roll his ankle early in the third he would have been a shoe-in.
In 2014 Hodgey broke the game apart in the second then guided the team home.

 

[HairyO]

I want to include Dew, just so the carver has his work cut out for him.

Would only be room for 3 on the mountain.

Kennedy Snr and Jeans a must. Matthews a must.

4th between Arthur, Dunstall, Clarko.

 

[Fetnarr]

Was going to say the same about Dicker. Criminally underrated in his role for saving the club.

Not just saving it but also rebuilding it


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[Fastback]

Kennedy
Matthews
Brereton
Hodge

All tough, all played on the edge, all mongrels, all winners.

 

[CHUBBSS]

Personally hate the idea we have to use some American mountain as a reference point, take the snowy mountains and australianise it… but maybe I’m getting old.

We would have a handful of influential people in recent times, prevented the merger, dunstall and Clarkson hiring, Vandenberg and selfless captaincy, these were all defining of where we are now.

Even Kennets first stint as much as some don’t like him helped build the governance of the club, it all went a bit pair shaped at the end but would you do it all again for flags - every day of the week.

 

[moginie]

Personally hate the idea we have to use some American mountain as a reference point, take the snowy mountains and australianise it… but maybe I’m getting old.

Let's use the Twelve Apostles as the template then.

We'd comfortably find that many.

 

[CHUBBSS]

Let's use the Twelve Apostles as the template then.

We'd comfortably find that many.

I like it, 12 club defining people, not many clubs would have a better list.

I’d throw up another, saw us through some of the toughest times and was a one club champion… Crawford - we don’t win 08 without him and how much of an impact he had on standards, also had an unbelievable handball rarely seen these days