Autopsy Dogs 🐕 pantsed by injury depleted Cats 🐱 97-75

[_Mike_]

Bevo, bullshit baffles brains

 

[Next Waiting]

Yep, I think we got exactly what we wanted.

I don't know if O.G. has posted his excellent stats for the game, but the expected score was right around 80 each.
Given that from memory they got at least 2 (possibly 3?) goals directly from really poor kicks across half back (under little to no pressure) then it's a coaching win.

Poor kicking for goal (agree with everyone else that's is an unacceptable constant. I mean who here actually expected Bont to kick his set shot early in the 3rd?), and poor execution from perfectly reasonable decisions killed us.

Edit: I guess I've dismissed the fact that they were significantly undermanned, so we "should" have beaten a mid-table team...
I guess that makes us exactly the same thing.

So this makes me wonder further whether part of the game plan isn't to challenge the opposition to match the out number at the stoppage earlier in the game and give the forwards both even numbers and more space to operate in, or just succumb to the weight of possession.

But for that to work effectively, the kicking efficiency has to be higher across the board. We should really have had them well on the ropes by half time if wasn't for that inaccuracy.

The other comment he made in the presser that caught my attention was his note that the players were usually able to overcome that disappointment (my interpretation) and find a way to win or get very close. I got the feeling that because of the scores they'd left out on the park in recent times and this being one more time, they dropped their bundles a bit in frustration.

So I'm arriving at the conclusion that the players themselves actually need to get together and resolve to fix this. It's in their heads. It's concentration. It's valuing the importance of kicking efficiently. It's the vibe.

 

[Bulldogs85]

He’s not wrong

 

[Norm De Guerre]

I'm not so sure Norm.

The emphasis and adoption of the crack in was team wide. Throw Dahl and Clay Smith into the mix not to mention Bont, Libba and Macrae. There was an element of team wide heightened pressure on the opposition at the contest and elsewhere that hasn't really been replicated since 2016, and Bevo acknowledged that it was one area of the game that he didn't need to address.

For all his faults, McCartney can rightly take some credit for that IMO and arguably it was the foundation for our ultimate success. The rest of what you've said about him is probably correct although the departure of Cooney, Higgins and Griffen through that period is not something I see any need to regret.

All of the younger guys who played pivotal roles in 2016 were already super competitive players. It would've made little difference who their coach was in that regard. It goes back to my point earlier in this thread in that you cannot teach aspects of the game like this to players. It's baked into them by the time they arrive at the club. They either are or aren't competitive by nature. In my view, McCartney just happened to be the guy in charge when the stars aligned and that group started to form around what was already a solid core or hardened players. His greatest contribution to the rise of the club was that he was so bad at the gig he was the harbinger for desperately needed change and a high risk list management gambit at club as risk averse as ours has traditionally been. For that if nothing else. I give him sole credit.

The adoption of a handball focused game and a coach with a much wider approach to the job had a much bigger impact on our rise than the myth of cracking in ever had.

Cooney was a no brainer. He was cooked by the time of his departure. I don't think it's a stretch to say that both Higgins and Griffen would've played in our flag side if we were playing a game of alternative timelines. One thing is certain, no matter what alternative timeline we can conjure. Brendan McCartney and his stiflingly dull approach to the game was never going to be the coach who got us there.

Right or wrong. Im done raking over 10 year old coals colder than my mother in laws touch.

Carry on.

 

[Libbaaaa]

Caleb is making me eat my words about his 4 year deal. His past month has been the best of his career.

 

[dogwatch]

He’s not wrong

He could have had that scoop much, much earlier if he'd bothered to read BF.

 

[Next Waiting]

He’s not wrong

Most people are making the assumption that it's a forward sync problem. But is it .... conclusively? If the I50 is bombing it long then it's likely a lot of players will congregate at the fall of the ball. Is that what those delivering I50 are being asked to do? Bomb it long to a contest.

From all that Bevo has alluded to, I get the impression that that is not what they're being challenged to do. I can think of a number of times when JUH has kicked an I50 for Naughts to lead onto and vice versa and I imagine that when Naughts or Juh see that one or the other is kicking I50 they'll be more inclined to lead accordingly.

Could it be that the fwds simply do not have the required faith that those delivering I50 will honour their leads or kick to their advantage with any consistency so they're congregating in a likely spot in the hope that they'll at least halve the contest and then it becomes an all in. Is it/our Bevo's preference to kick to packs or contests with crumbers?

Are we looking in the right place for the problem?

 

[Optimistic Dog]

Scoring from turnover is becoming the most important way to score and win games. Probably even more important than winning the contested ball. Sure you need to take the risk of hitting targets to create scores, playing safe down the line footy just does not cut it. We seem to turn the ball over a lot by foot and we have a number players who foot skills are poor. Gardner, O'Brien, Smith, Baker to name a few. Add to this a forward line that get to the wrong position plus poor goal kicking skills it easy to understand why we are losing games where we seem to be on top in the territory battle.

Question is can we fix it consistently any time soon. Probably not there will some games where we are a lot better in this area. I guess enough to fall into the 8 but not enough to be contending.

 

[Next Waiting]

All of the younger guys who played pivotal roles in 2016 were already super competitive players. It would've made little difference who their coach was in that regard. It goes back to my point earlier in this thread in that you cannot teach aspects of the game like this to players. It's baked into them by the time they arrive at the club. They either are or aren't competitive by nature. In my view, McCartney just happened to be the guy in charge when the stars aligned and that group started to form around what was already a solid core or hardened players. His greatest contribution to the rise of the club was that he was so bad at the gig he was the harbinger for desperately needed change and a high risk list management gambit at club as risk averse as ours has traditionally been. For that if nothing else. I give him sole credit.

The adoption of a handball focused game and a coach with a much wider approach to the job had a much bigger impact on our rise than the myth of cracking in ever had.

Cooney was a no brainer. He was cooked by the time of his departure. I don't think it's a stretch to say that both Higgins and Griffen would've played in our flag side if we were playing a game of alternative timelines. One thing is certain, no matter what alternative timeline we can conjure. Brendan McCartney and his stiflingly dull approach to the game was never going to be the coach who got us there.

Right or wrong. Im done raking over 10 year old coals colder than my mother in laws touch.

Carry on.

I don't mind revisiting these things every now and then. What was done was done and cannot be undone. Some bad times, followed by some good times. Maybe the former had a bearing on the latter, maybe it didn't. The rich tapestry....

 

[Next Waiting]

You

I Remember Cody he mark the footy and he had a teammate in space just ignores it and kicks the footy into the goal square didn’t even score from it.

Me?

 

[Bulldogs85]

Me?

No not you that’s why I deleted the post

 

[Next Waiting]

No not you that’s why I deleted the post

I wish our players could delete some of their kicks. No, not you Myers. I'm deleting that kick.

 

[Jeff 1975]

Beecause we picked too tall a team, we had to play Daniel in defence,

He is not quick enough and can’t kick far enough to be of any use in quick transition out of defence and is a liability 1 on 1:

In doing so we lost our best delivere inside 50 and one of our goal kickers.

Believe or not we have some decent quick defenders in the reserves who Bevo won’t play. One or two of Cleary, Crozier, VDM should have been picked.

I think Daniel drifted back when we lost Richards not because we where to tall
I agree Daniel is a better mid / forward
I would also agree in some minor changes and try outs

 

[Here we go dogs]

Probably went in too tall. Got slaughtered out the back by the Geelong forwards with leg speed.

Cleary is a must play for me next week. And I’d also run with crozier.

Id refrain from bringing VDM in as half backer just yet as he isn’t running out games in the VFL (think he had 14 at half time and finished with 17). I didn’t watch the second half closely, so I assume his still on managed time or building fitness and not injured as I haven’t heard otherwise.

Also our small forwards were passengers last night. But the cupboard is completely bare there at afl level. The only other small foward we have on the list is Charlie Clarke and he is no where near it.

 

[Dogs_R_Us]

McCartney when he arrived at the club said it would take five years before the team would be ready to contend. Five years later, it was 2016…

 

[Oliver G]

Can't remember who asked but here is the rundown of our kicking and overall goal accuracy across the season...

Kicking Profile (minimum 20 shots, midfielders highlighted)


Teams - Shot At Goal Profile (currently ranked 15th for shot accuracy and 18th for scoring shot accuracy)


WB - Shot At Goal Profile (minimum 5 shots)


Competition - Shot At Goal Profile (minimum 40 shots)

 

[Nat Fyfe]

Can't remember who asked but here is the rundown of our kicking and overall goal accuracy across the season...

Kicking Profile (minimum 20 shots, midfielders highlighted)
View attachment 1704868

Teams - Shot At Goal Profile (currently ranked 15th for shot accuracy and 18th for scoring shot accuracy)
View attachment 1704870

WB - Shot At Goal Profile (minimum 5 shots)
View attachment 1704871

Competition - Shot At Goal Profile (minimum 40 shots)
View attachment 1704872

Is there any stats that reflect difficulty of kick? For example, Baker is more than 10% higher than Treloar on effective kick rate, but doesn’t mean much if he’s going for easy sideways kicks while Treloar is trying to gain ground with riskier kicks

 

[dogwatch]

Can't remember who asked but here is the rundown of our kicking and overall goal accuracy across the season...

Kicking Profile (minimum 20 shots, midfielders highlighted)
View attachment 1704868

Teams - Shot At Goal Profile (currently ranked 15th for shot accuracy and 18th for scoring shot accuracy)
View attachment 1704870

WB - Shot At Goal Profile (minimum 5 shots)
View attachment 1704871

Competition - Shot At Goal Profile (minimum 40 shots)
View attachment 1704872

Some good stuff there OG. It wasn't me asking but thanks anyway.

Not enough heat on Jamarra for his appalling returns IMO. Statistically at least he is worse than Naughton. He was very reliable in his first 10-20 games IIRC but has got considerably worse. The Bulldog Yips. In his defence he does take quite a few shots from the arc or just outside it and also quite a few from out wide that either don't make the distance (I presume that still counts as a NS) or get sprayed because he has to really give it a roost and in doing so loses accuracy.

However I noticed on two occasions last night (I think in the third and fourth qtrs) that he was in two minds on about the arc. His indecision was whether to pass to Naughton who was 1-on-1 (3rd qtr) and something similar in the 4th qtr but I can't remember who was available. In my view he should have kicked to the uncrowded forward line both times but he ended up waiting too long on both occasions. To compound the error he then rushed each of those shots on goal and they both failed to score or find a forward.

Having missed the opportunity for a quick entry before the defenders flooded back he should have taken his 30 seconds, composed himself and made the best of his kick. That could have been the shot at goal or a sideways pass if anyone became available. Hopefully that will come with experience, but is anyone actually reviewing that with him mid-week so that he does learn? I sure hope so.

 

[Oliver G]

Is there any stats that reflect difficulty of kick? For example, Baker is more than 10% higher than Treloar on effective kick rate, but doesn’t mean much if he’s going for easy sideways kicks while Treloar is trying to gain ground with riskier kicks

Yes there is it's called "Kick rating" which essentially is expected score but for kicks, in other words an expected kick rate. I sadly don't have access to these ratings.

 

[Oliver G]

Not enough heat on Jamarra for his appalling returns IMO. Statistically at least he is worse than Naughton. He was very reliable in his first 10-20 games IIRC but has got considerably worse. The Bulldog Yips. In his defence he does take quite a few shots from the arc or just outside it and also quite a few from out wide that either don't make the distance (I presume that still counts as a NS) or get sprayed because he has to really give it a roost and in doing so loses accuracy.

Yeah this year he has taken a significant number of shots from 40m+ out which obviously has affected his efficiency, I guess the question is should he be trying to set some of these up instead of going for goal.

 

[doggies ftw]

Can't remember who asked but here is the rundown of our kicking and overall goal accuracy across the season...

Kicking Profile (minimum 20 shots, midfielders highlighted)
View attachment 1704868

Teams - Shot At Goal Profile (currently ranked 15th for shot accuracy and 18th for scoring shot accuracy)
View attachment 1704870

WB - Shot At Goal Profile (minimum 5 shots)
View attachment 1704871

Competition - Shot At Goal Profile (minimum 40 shots)
View attachment 1704872

Hmm I wonder if the Dees supporters are talking about playing Fritsch in defence, I mean he must be costing them games forward…. Or GWS with Hogan, Hawks with Bruest etc

Yeah Naughty is out of touch but people have no idea if they think he’s that far from the norm he needs to be moved to defence

 

[Nat Fyfe]

Yes there is it's called "Kick rating" which essentially is expected score but for kicks, in other words an expected kick rate. I sadly don't have access to these ratings.

Ah damn, yeah would be great if that was public. Another pretty egregious example in that table is Macrae, English, Libba and Daniel (all very good to elite fields kicks) being so far below Bruce, who is probably one of the worst kicks on our list.

Sucks how other sports are so open with their data, allowing full time YouTubers to run through their own analysis, while the AFL leaves the public data so simplistic.

 

[lachy]

Unforced Turnovers By Player
3 - Baker
2 - B. Smith
1 - Dale, Duryea, Gardner, Liberatore, Macrae, O’Donnell, Richards, Treloar, Ugle-Hagen, Weightman,

In this group that cost us severely we have some average players but
B Smith
Dale
Durea
Libba
Macrae
Richards and Trealor

6 of our best 12 and we wonder why we lost

On SM-G996B using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[dogwatch]

Most people are making the assumption that it's a forward sync problem. But is it .... conclusively? If the I50 is bombing it long then it's likely a lot of players will congregate at the fall of the ball. Is that what those delivering I50 are being asked to do? Bomb it long to a contest.

From all that Bevo has alluded to, I get the impression that that is not what they're being challenged to do. I can think of a number of times when JUH has kicked an I50 for Naughts to lead onto and vice versa and I imagine that when Naughts or Juh see that one or the other is kicking I50 they'll be more inclined to lead accordingly.

Could it be that the fwds simply do not have the required faith that those delivering I50 will honour their leads or kick to their advantage with any consistency so they're congregating in a likely spot in the hope that they'll at least halve the contest and then it becomes an all in. Is it/our Bevo's preference to kick to packs or contests with crumbers?

Are we looking in the right place for the problem?

So many possibilities there, NW.

I reckon it starts with a chaotic forward line (see the earlier comments from Brad Johnson, Lloyd and whoever else about the dysfunction down there) but it is compounded by poor, indiscriminate, shallow or bombed entries (or sometimes a combination of several of those ).

A really instructive video would be a compilation of some of Geelong's goals alongside some of our botched attempts. Even if it is deliberate cherry-picking it could demonstrate how it should be done and how not to do it. Some illustrations/impressions from last night:

• When the ball was bombed to a crowded WB forward line we didn't take any pack marks. It was either an intercept by Geelong or a contested ground ball. Geelong dealt with the Naughton /Weightman high marking threat really well. The only time that a bomb like that resulted in a goal to us was when it spilled out and a hail-mary 15.5m kick out of a scrimmage was marked impressively by O'Donnell in front of his opponent 10m out. Moral: we're wasting our time with bombs, even if Naughton is down there. We have to be more creative. The occasional Naughton screamer should be the icing, not the cake.
• Jamarra and Lobb often take their i50 marks (or marks just outside 50) on the lead. Jamarra especially has really sticky hands and at times is reminiscent of a fast leading Simon Beasley. As I posted earlier he needs to be more composed or constructive with his kicks if he is at his range limit. Lobb however has a really good range and is relatively accurate even from an angle on 50. Moral 1: we should be trying to maximise these sorts of opportunities but getting Marra to think more about his usage. Moral 2: Cut the Lobb on the wing crap.
• Somebody said our small forwards gave us nothing but I thought Weightman did quite a bit of good work, including off the ball. He also had two GAs. I'd agree in Arty's case unfortunately. He's probably due for a spell back in VFL.
• To give credit where it's due we did have one very impressive entry (2nd qtr I think), where we went coast to coast via Duryea on the wing and Weightman marked about 35m out and goaled. Maybe also that first goal to Naughton was from quick movement into an uncrowded forward line. Those transitions were all too rare though. Moral: the fast ball movement by hand and foot can pay off but it depends on our HBFs and midfielders not panicking or kicking blindly to a turnover. If the opposition pressure on the ball carrier is too great and/or the options ahead are covered we need to release sideways, slow it down, retain possession, chip it around on the HFF and wait for the eventual leadup or player in space. Not every foray forward can be scintillating slingshot footy.
• Geelong seemed to score a few easy goals out the back. There was even one to lumbering Hawkins. We didn't score any, as far as I can recall. Instead we had the usual 3-4 forwards or defenders flying for the ball, often with nobody front and centre and nobody out the back. Meanwhile Geelong had one in the aerial contest and 3-4 waiting for the scraps. The moral of that should be obvious.
• Geelong scored - what was it? - maybe 10 of their 15 goals from turnovers. They simply zoned off well, applied pressure on the ball carrier and receivers and waited for us to make the errors. It won the game for them. Moral: STOP TURNING THE F**KING THING OVER!

EDIT 1: Now that I think about it Naughton did take a CM (maybe 4th qtr), but not sure if it was in a pack. Just scraped in for a point, RH side of goals.
EDIT 2: We did manage to score some quick goals from out of the midfield, one was from Bailey Smith I think. Moral: How about we have our forwards spread more often to the pockets/flanks drawing defenders away from the centre, rather than cluster about 30m out? This would clear space for midfielders to run further inside 50, or at least for our best CM forward (Naughton) to have fewer than three spoiling opponents. Just a thought, Mr Spangher. Something has to change.

 

[Shacf501]

Ok, having watched the game live and sitting back for a day de-briefing I have come to the conclusion that the way we play is not entertaining in the slightest. I love my football, don't get me wrong, but having watched us over the past couple of years our game plan has become so predictable and boring. We complicate the game, we make the easy hard but yet nothing changes. We lose the same way most weeks, the same players make the same old mistakes week in week out but yet are never dropped. Our so called guns struggle to influence games on a consistent basis.

We do not spread enough offensively and very rarely you see any overlap running by our mids. Treloar does it at times and so does Bont but thats it. Teams zone off against us and our first option is a little chip kick sideways to the boundary line. We limit the possibilities of our forwards due to where we are bring the ball into out forward 50. As we all seen sat night our switching is pathetic, RG tries his hardest and we all know he has limitations but his clanger are common and extremely worrying.

Lobb might have kicked a few goals lately but he is a witches hat defensively. It's almost embarrassing to watch at times. One on one he has no strength and for a guy his size does not show enough physicality and aggression. He will get a couple cheap goals now and then but honestly I don't see what he offers. I would rather go in with an under size second ruck with someone like Baku Khamis who at least would show a little more up forward and offer more defensively when we dont have the ball.

Bailey Smith

6

Bailey Smith

Age

23

Ht

185cm

Wt

86kg

Pos.

M/F

Career

Season

Last 5

D

18.3

5star

K

8.5

3star

HB

9.8

5star

M

2.3

2star

T

3.8

5star

CL

2.7

4star

D

19.8

5star

K

9.6

4star

HB

10.2

5star

M

1.8

2star

T

3.2

4star

CL

3.2

4star

D

14.8

4star

K

7.6

3star

HB

7.2

5star

M

2.0

3star

T

3.4

5star

CL

1.6

4star

as mentioned by other posters is extremely worrying at the moment. His lack of physicality in close and the amount of times he butchers the ball on the outside leaves us with a major dilemma. He should not play in the centre square. I don't care what the stats say, he has no idea how to stop his opponents direct line at the ball. He plays from behind hoping to get an easy outlet ball from Libba or bont but if they don't get it his opponent is running forward offensively as smith is always out of position. I think it's more attitude with him rarher than ability. No doubt the kid can play but he is starting to show some extremely worrying attributes that are not being fixed by the coaching staff. Even watching him in the warm up whilst doing the kriss cross hand pass drill, every other player after handballing the ball made contact with the bloke holding the bump bag all except for smith. Why? Does he think he is special, does he not like contact, who knows. It's only a small thing but it sometimes does out on the field. I really hope he improves because he is going to demand big money to stay once his contract is up and knowing our club we will just pay it.

Ryan Gardiner...yes he is limited but the guy tries. But, unfortunately trying isn't enough. You can excuse one, maybe two ball handing skills but he constantly makes poor decisions and his disposal is disgusting. How many times does he want to leave his direct opponent to go third man up, jump at the ball and completely miss it and allow the ball over the BACK.. HOW MANY FRIGGIN TIMES!!!!!!!!

Aaron Naughton

33

Aaron Naughton

Age

24

Ht

196cm

Wt

92kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

10.7

3star

K

7.0

3star

HB

3.7

3star

M

4.9

5star

T

1.8

4star

G

0.8

4star

D

6.3

1star

K

4.0

1star

HB

2.3

2star

M

2.5

3star

T

0.8

1star

G

0.5

4star

D

12.8

4star

K

8.8

4star

HB

4.0

3star

M

4.8

5star

T

1.2

3star

G

0.0

1star

- cut your hair...do something because at the minute your lack of urgency is worrying. We all love you. We all sympathise with you on how they bring the ball in the forward 50 but your second efforts at the moment just are not good enough. Does he need to go back for some confidence.?

Goal kicking.....LMFAO...thats all I have to say about that!!!

Jamarra - except for your kicking at goal full credit to you son. You are busting your arse and starting to hold some of these marks we all know you had in you. It will come... you're still only 21... you are one who has improved your defensive skills, still a long way to go but well done. Your big hit and tackle on the boundary line is what more of our players need to show!

Timmy, you played awesome but still frustrate us with some silly things you do. I think us mere mortals forgot how hard it must be for you to play majority ruck. Easy to bag you for some silly mistakes or brain fades but honestly your intercept marking saved us.

Caleb.... high five!

Oscar, Scott, McNeill, - need to show more when the chips are down.

Weightman - what do we do with you? Are you selfish or just plain football dumb? You dont get front and square to crumb enough and then jump into our leading forwards. This means dragging your man to the contest and making it harder for our key forwards. Do you have instructions or are you more like Smith and just dont care and do what you want? Please explain and enlighten us all.

Bont - we love you to the moon and back but whats happened the last 3 weeks? are you injured or carrying something?
You are the main man, the leader the match winner! Well are you? As a captain, you are more gifted than a Cotchin and Selwood combined however they always managed to get their side over the line and found away. You need to get this in your game, its ok to be hard and expect results from your men, but from what we see this just isn't happening.

Lastly, we lost to a Geelong side that was injury depleted. No Selwood anymore and no Dangerfield and we still get pantsed.

Bevo....what are you going to do? We play the same old subs and lose the same way over and over again. McRae isn't a forward mate and JOD isn't either and lobb isn't athletic enough to play on the wing. WTF!!