Politics Fascist takeover US 2025.

[btdg]

The left arent regarded as radical. A small subset of the left is regarded as radical. Those who want to ban flights, ban meat, reward and penalise people based off what some of their ancestors did 200 years ago, reject the scientific value of vaccines, advocate for population culls to save the environment and want to end capitalism.

Given this is a political forum, can we at least settle on a sensible definition of 'radical' that applies to both right and left? Radical doesn't just mean advocating dor change you either misunderstand or don't agree with.

There's a pretty obvious line that defines radical as being a belief that the system cannot be reformed or gradually improved, and that it must be overthrown, broken or completely resisted or withdrawn from.

This stands in contrast to moderates who beleive that the system can be reformed or improved through existing channels - in Australia through democracy, public advocacy, even peaceful protest

Thus:
- democratic lefties want to fiz the system - more equality, animal rights, whatever, but leaving the frame the same. Radical lefties want to smash it completely.

- radical right-wing is the belief that democracy is flawed, power should be invested in inherently superior elites, often with violent suppression of dissent. Fascism is one form of this, but there's plenty of other authoritarian forms here (eg Putin).

Back to this topic, the concerning thing about Trump has always been his escalating disregard for political norms, including refusing to acknowledge the election result and the January 6th shenanigans. There is certainly a radical element to his politics - if not wanting to abolish the system, he is actively undermining it. I don't think he is a fascist - again, not all right wing authoritarians are. I do think he would wear a fascist cloak to get elected and that is just as worrying (un anprincipled authoriatarian is just as scary as a principled one)

 

[Seeds]

Given this is a political forum, can we at least settle on a sensible definition of 'radical' that applies to both right and left? Radical doesn't just mean advocating dor change you either misunderstand or don't agree with.

There's a pretty obvious line that defines radical as being a belief that the system cannot be reformed or gradually improved, and that it must be overthrown, broken or completely resisted or withdrawn from.

This stands in contrast to moderates who beleive that the system can be reformed or improved through existing channels - in Australia through democracy, public advocacy, even peaceful protest

Thus:
- democratic lefties want to fiz the system - more equality, animal rights, whatever, but leaving the frame the same. Radical lefties want to smash it completely.

- radical right-wing is the belief that democracy is flawed, power should be invested in inherently superior elites, often with violent suppression of dissent. Fascism is one form of this, but there's plenty of other authoritarian forms here (eg Putin).

Back to this topic, the concerning thing about Trump has always been his escalating disregard for political norms, including refusing to acknowledge the election result and the January 6th shenanigans. There is certainly a radical element to his politics - if not wanting to abolish the system, he is actively undermining it. I don't think he is a fascist - again, not all right wing authoritarians are. I do think he would wear a fascist cloak to get elected and that is just as worrying (un anprincipled authoriatarian is just as scary as a principled one)

Good post. Although radical doesnt have to mean one thing. Its a vague term. It can mean wanting to overthrow the system rather then try work through it as you state. Or it can mean extreme positions compared to the average population. And theres probably a significant overlap between those who qualify as radical under either definition.

 

[kranky al]

Biden has never held a flag or a bible?

See this is one of those times in life where I sort of throw my hands up in frustration.

I mean, I can take the time and do my best to explain it to you.

I just can’t understand it for you.

Joe Biden hasn’t banged hoes whilst his wife was pregnant. Or had multiple wives. Or been dragged into court and made to pay lots of money for rape. He hasn’t perpetuated multiple fraudulent business practises and doesn’t lie like he breathes.

He doesn’t grab unwilling women by the pussy or brag about doing such.

If you are wondering why all this is relevant - you might want to read about the ten funking commandments….

They are in the book trump is selling and holding in that pic.

The commandments forbid all of that….

Does that help you join those quite close together, simply patterned and rather unconfusing arrangement of dots?


Now look at Joe Biden, married to the same woman for 46 years. He doesn’t break commandments like he breathes.

 

[Brad Goodman]

If trumps wins this election and gets both the house and senate there will not be another democratically elected president in the USA.

The facism risk is much bigger then what everyone thinks it is.

Remains to be seen whether he'd be successful, but anyone who doesn't believe that he will at least try this is a naive *******.

 

[evolved2]

Remains to be seen whether he'd be successful, but anyone who doesn't believe that he will at least try this is a naive *******.

While I'm sure he would like to change the rules to suit himself, I suggest the US democracy is a bit more robust than some here give it credit for.

There's a lot of exaggerated fear on this thread. I'd personally vote for Biden over Trump given opportunity, but the melts on social media would make a Trump win hilarious.

 

[Seeds]

While I'm sure he would like to change the rules to suit himself, I suggest the US democracy is a bit more robust than some here give it credit for.

There's a lot of exaggerated fear on this thread. I'd personally vote for Biden over Trump given opportunity, but the melts on social media would make a Trump win hilarious.

You base this robustness off what? Recency bias or something more substantial. From where Im looking Us democracy is far less robust then we believe.

 

[burge13]

It's interesting, these are nominally left positions, or at least left of western status quo. A touch of nationalism but not unhealthy.
I'm sure you would categorise yourself as right/centre/nonpolitical etc and the upper classes/media would howl these positions down as commie/socialist/authoritarian.

Does make me think a far left populist would stand a growing chance within the democratic west

I think most people lean left on alot of issues so it shows how mental/extreme the left have gone that there's that much divide tbh.

 

[evolved2]

You base this robustness off what? Recency bias or something more substantial. From where Im looking Us democracy is far less robust then we believe.

Perhaps there is some recency bias. I'm happy to be shown errors in my thoughts here.

As far as I'm aware, there's only minority support for Trumps actions after the last election from within the Republican party. The vast majority of Republicans support democracy, and even Pence distanced himself from some of Trump's actions after the election loss.

Where do you see weaknesses in their democracy? Sure you can point out bad actions under the Trump administration as well as Trump's desire to ignore elements of the democratic process, but I sincerely doubt things will get anywhere near as far as you've suggested.

 

[evolved2]

I think most people lean left on alot of issues so it shows how mental/extreme the left have gone that there's that much divide tbh.

People being pushed into niche extremist views through social media algorithms hasn't helped. I rarely meet the extremities from either side in public, but they seem quite vocal about their views on social media.

 

[btdg]

Perhaps there is some recency bias. I'm happy to be shown errors in my thoughts here.

As far as I'm aware, there's only minority support for Trumps actions after the last election from within the Republican party. The vast majority of Republicans support democracy, and even Pence distanced himself from some of Trump's actions after the election loss.

Where do you see weaknesses in their democracy? Sure you can point out bad actions under the Trump administration as well as Trump's desire to ignore elements of the democratic process, but I sincerely doubt things will get anywhere near as far as you've suggested.

I think there's an obvious path with Trump if he gets re-elected. The key weaknesses are their electoral system and decentralisation of power; in itself a strength as long as parties accept the premise of the system. Trump doesn't, and even in his first term showed this and there's a set of clear steps that would further undermine their democracy that I see.

The first is the process of stacking the deck in elections across teh country, combined with stacking the judiciary with allies who are personally loyal or who share MAGA republican principles. They'll enact voter repression measures and use the courts to enforce them. In the key states we'll end up with Republican majorities in congress and the senate, in state politics, and a corrupted judiciary (backed by a stacked supreme court). The next step will be to stack the military, public service and police as well.

Then down the track, he'll start talking about term limits and how stupid they are, and how it should be '2 consecutive terms' and then run again for President in an already stacked election, before attempting to just get this thrown out all together. 8 years is plenty of time for that.

He'll use the (generally justified because, you know, he's a crook) legal action against him in opposition as a causus belli to imprison political opponents. He already sewed the seeds of this with Hillary Clinton (remember the 'lock her up' chants) and again, with a complicit judiciary he only needs the appearance of something illegal for popular support to rally behind it.

From there, who knows. I can see things heading down a path of 'the USA is a Republic, not a democracy' leading to just stepping right away from the separation of powers, with the president assuming more and more control, and the other two branches increasingly subservient, and the military increasingly used to suppress dissent, with a favourable media supporting everything. The complexity and decentralisation of the US system overall would then become a weakness against a centralised Presidency that can act more quickly, decisively, and powerfully than the pockets of resistance that you would see in NY, California, etc.

Ultimately you end up with an authoritarian Republic a la Russia, which I think Trump has previously admired.

Would it be a fascist state? I doubt it - that implies a level of ideology that I don't think Trump has, and I don't think he would feel the need to go down the rabbit hole that would entail (ie: war). Just a regular old authoritarian state with a healthy dose of cult of personality would be enough.

Do I think this WOULD actually happen? Probably not, if nothing else because of his age/health and that I still think he's surround by both sycophants but also plenty of bad-faith supporters who are using him and will cast him aside as soon as their work is done (that includes the religious right and younger republicans who see him as a gravy train to a lifetime of power).

 

[Ghost Patrol]

People being pushed into niche extremist views through social media algorithms hasn't helped. I rarely meet the extremities from either side in public, but they seem quite vocal about their views on social media.

Your anti-woke nonsense is extremism.

Let me guess, you only display that narrative on social media?

 

[bourbons]

Perhaps there is some recency bias. I'm happy to be shown errors in my thoughts here.

As far as I'm aware, there's only minority support for Trumps actions after the last election from within the Republican party. The vast majority of Republicans support democracy, and even Pence distanced himself from some of Trump's actions after the election loss.

Hmm maybe a majority, I wouldn't be so sure of that its a 'vast' majority though. The rest support power, getting it and holding it. The 'how' seems less of a concern than it used to be.

Where do you see weaknesses in their democracy? Sure you can point out bad actions under the Trump administration as well as Trump's desire to ignore elements of the democratic process, but I sincerely doubt things will get anywhere near as far as you've suggested.

imo its probably their state-run election processes and lack of independent electoral commission. Its kinda all based on the assumption the Republicans or Democrats running things in the relevant positions are functioning normal-ish adults - imagine 2020 with a hardcore Trump flunky running things in Georgia who'd just go "of course Don, we'll just say we've recalculated and found another 11k votes". Or if he had one as his VP who said "yep no worries, of course I won't certify the results as they stand and will instead recognise these alternative elector slates".

What would have happened? I won't pretend I know, would probably qualify as a constitutional crisis though.

 

[BigTacoBandit]

How? Trump wanted tougher immigration laws which anyone in their right mind would be for. Biden removed everything, created the problems they have now. Trump wins a landslide if he leans into these issues and surely cities spending millions on homing illegals have lost blue votes? Chicago for example is reportedly millions a week spent. I'd want gun crime in that city looked at for that $ if I lived there

Can I let you in on a little secret - the whole US economy relies on illegal immigrants and so neither side (but especially "business friendly" GOP) don't want to do anything about it. They just to be "seen" to be doing something.

What do you think would happen if Trump removed the 10 million illegals? Crops would rot in the fields, construction projects would stop, workers would have to quit work to look after their kids, corporate profits would collapse.

Illegal immigrants are the new modern slaves that prop up the US economy. They do all the crap jobs that US citizens won't do for less than award rates. If they complain about conditions, they get dobbed into ICE.

He'll, it's why Trump employs illegal immigrants at his businesses and thus creating the demand that leads them to enter the US.

 

[Gethelred]

While I'm sure he would like to change the rules to suit himself, I suggest the US democracy is a bit more robust than some here give it credit for.

I mean, I'd also like to think so but I don't.

We were assured that there's no way he was a serious candidate the first go around; then, we were told he wasn't all that popular; then, we were told that the Republicans wouldn't nominate him, that the Republicans would come to their senses; then, we were told there was no way on EARTH that he would win because there was no way America would vote for him.

Check this out:

... and tell me if you think this might apply here.

I didn't call Trump a fascist last time round, believing it to be overblown. We're beyond laughter now, one would think.

There's a lot of exaggerated fear on this thread. I'd personally vote for Biden over Trump given opportunity, but the melts on social media would make a Trump win hilarious.

... I really don't get the allure of laughing at political melts. Footy sure; schadenfreude at stuff that doesn't matter makes sense to me. But this isn't just make believe; this is the very distinct possibility that, should he win, he will do as he did with the Supreme Court and stack command with his people.

The only reason Jan. 6th wasn't actively a successful coup is because the military stayed out. He's had a trial run now.

 

[Seeds]

Perhaps there is some recency bias. I'm happy to be shown errors in my thoughts here.

As far as I'm aware, there's only minority support for Trumps actions after the last election from within the Republican party. The vast majority of Republicans support democracy, and even Pence distanced himself from some of Trump's actions after the election loss.

Where do you see weaknesses in their democracy? Sure you can point out bad actions under the Trump administration as well as Trump's desire to ignore elements of the democratic process, but I sincerely doubt things will get anywhere near as far as you've suggested.

I dont think there are that many real republicans left and four years down the track i think they will be virtually gone from the party leaving just the MAGA members left. Those MAGA members are already starting to state out loud that they dont believe in democracy.

 

[CD Xbow]

Given this is a political forum, can we at least settle on a sensible definition of 'radical' that applies to both right and left? Radical doesn't just mean advocating dor change you either misunderstand or don't agree with.

There's a pretty obvious line that defines radical as being a belief that the system cannot be reformed or gradually improved, and that it must be overthrown, broken or completely resisted or withdrawn from.

This stands in contrast to moderates who beleive that the system can be reformed or improved through existing channels - in Australia through democracy, public advocacy, even peaceful protest

Thus:
- democratic lefties want to fiz the system - more equality, animal rights, whatever, but leaving the frame the same. Radical lefties want to smash it completely.

- radical right-wing is the belief that democracy is flawed, power should be invested in inherently superior elites, often with violent suppression of dissent. Fascism is one form of this, but there's plenty of other authoritarian forms here (eg Putin).

Back to this topic, the concerning thing about Trump has always been his escalating disregard for political norms, including refusing to acknowledge the election result and the January 6th shenanigans. There is certainly a radical element to his politics - if not wanting to abolish the system, he is actively undermining it. I don't think he is a fascist - again, not all right wing authoritarians are. I do think he would wear a fascist cloak to get elected and that is just as worrying (un anprincipled authoriatarian is just as scary as a principled one)

Good post, but I disagree about Mr T not being a fascist. Prior to the Jan 6th insurrection he ticked most of the boxes for classic mid 20th C Fascism but not quite all. He was a right wing, autocratic popularist who ran with many ethno-nationalistic themes similar to the Fascists of last century. After Jan 6th, by encouraging the revolt, refusing to accept the results of the election and threatening revenge against his opponents he stepped over the line. Trump became a fascist.

​

 

[Spearman]

While I'm sure he would like to change the rules to suit himself, I suggest the US democracy is a bit more robust than some here give it credit for.

There's a lot of exaggerated fear on this thread. I'd personally vote for Biden over Trump given opportunity, but the melts on social media would make a Trump win hilarious.

You may have noticed Conservative moves to take over the judiciary with young appointees. They were vetted for activist tendencies but.
Also in many states, local GOP moves to disenfranchise voters, radically gerrymander, and blatantly restrict access to voting locations. These are the steps being taken. It will not be in one big event. See the movement across state borders they are trying to implement. It’s being done .

 

[kranky al]

While I'm sure he would like to change the rules to suit himself, I suggest the US democracy is a bit more robust than some here give it credit for.

There's a lot of exaggerated fear on this thread. I'd personally vote for Biden over Trump given opportunity, but the melts on social media would make a Trump win hilarious.

Have you ever done a deep read on how Germany became a dictatorship?


Theres a great podcast by Dan Carlin on his hardcore history pod.

Really do recommend it.

It’s a blueprint.

It’s kinda like boiling a frog so slowly by the time it realises it’s too hot it can’t jump out.

 

[Gough]

Totally normal.

 

[evolved2]

Your anti-woke nonsense is extremism.

Let me guess, you only display that narrative on social media?

Some people really get caught up on that one word. I'm hardly a Pauline Hanson clone or Sky news fanboi, yet you see even moderates as the enemy.

In case you didn't notice, the public doesn't appreciate groups that sabotage sporting fields or park trucks across freeways in order to make a point and gain attention.

Anyway, that's a discussion for another thread so I'll leave it there.

 

[evolved2]

I mean, I'd also like to think so but I don't.

We were assured that there's no way he was a serious candidate the first go around; then, we were told he wasn't all that popular; then, we were told that the Republicans wouldn't nominate him, that the Republicans would come to their senses; then, we were told there was no way on EARTH that he would win because there was no way America would vote for him.

Check this out:

... and tell me if you think this might apply here.

I didn't call Trump a fascist last time round, believing it to be overblown. We're beyond laughter now, one would think.

Very fair points.

I view some opinions and fears of what may happen if Trump wins again as overblown. One of the more knowledgeable and reasonable posters here was willing to bet that Trump would start WW3 within a year of his first term. Anything is possible, but what is probable? It's all conjecture really.

... I really don't get the allure of laughing at political melts. Footy sure; schadenfreude at stuff that doesn't matter makes sense to me. But this isn't just make believe; this is the very distinct possibility that, should he win, he will do as he did with the Supreme Court and stack command with his people.

The only reason Jan. 6th wasn't actively a successful coup is because the military stayed out. He's had a trial run now.

Whether I laugh at political melts depends on what extent the person melting should be personally affected by the outcome. When the voice referendum lost, I could understand why First Nations people would be upset. White city boys who don't have any close relationships with those affected are a different story.

The US is a close ally with Australia and their choice of POTUS does have an impact on our nation. You could accuse me of being ignorant for my view that the impact of a Trump win wont directly affect many of us in any large way. People who aren't directly impacted in a large way should be capable of discussing the issues and implications dispassionately. Those who can't will probably get laughed at.

 

[evolved2]

Have you ever done a deep read on how Germany became a dictatorship?


Theres a great podcast by Dan Carlin on his hardcore history pod.

Really do recommend it.

It’s a blueprint.

It’s kinda like boiling a frog so slowly by the time it realises it’s too hot it can’t jump out.

Thanks for the recommendation. I've added hardcore history to my spotify library.

 

[kranky al]

Thanks for the recommendation. I've added hardcore history to my spotify library.

It’s the best deep dive history pod cast I’ve encountered.

I’ve read every book about w1, ww2 and vietnam ive been able to get my hands on and he has consistently been able to unearth factoids that id never read of before that changed the way I looked at those wars.

Hes very granular, you are talking 30+ hours to cover ww1 for instance. But you come out of it with a fundamental understanding from both sides perspective that’s second to none.

I dont know how many times ive driven 1500 km to get to a customers place then driven round the block twice just to hear a few more minutes….


Real dictators podcast is another ripper

 

[kranky al]

While I'm sure he would like to change the rules to suit himself, I suggest the US democracy is a bit more robust than some here give it credit for.

There's a lot of exaggerated fear on this thread. I'd personally vote for Biden over Trump given opportunity, but the melts on social media would make a Trump win hilarious.

 

[evolved2]

It’s the best deep dive history pod cast I’ve encountered.

I’ve read every book about w1, ww2 and vietnam ive been able to get my hands on and he has consistently been able to unearth factoids that id never read of before that changed the way I looked at those wars.

Hes very granular, you are talking 30+ hours to cover ww1 for instance. But you come out of it with a fundamental understanding from both sides perspective that’s second to none.

I dont know how many times ive driven 1500 km to get to a customers place then driven round the block twice just to hear a few more minutes….


Real dictators podcast is another ripper


View attachment 1943792

Appreciate it. One of my grandfathers was a POW of the Japanese in WW2 so I have a personal interest in learning more about some of that.