Analysis Flexibility and versatility when overused hinder rather than aide

[JJHunter]

ok likely going against the flow here given everybody’s love of all things beveridge but today news about schache training fifty fifty ruck fwd was a frustration to me. This on top of trengrove, roughhead and Boyd all being fifty fifty ruckman also.

Stick with me.

Would you rather a side of jack of all trades or a side of masters ??

Would a forward trengrove plays on this year be happy he has spent half the preseason training as a ruck rather than working with the back six.

When Rance plays on schache this year do you think he is as prepared as he should be if he spent half preseason training as a ruck?

When he goes into the ruck against nankervis will he be as prepared as he should be? Would nankervis be happy that for the entire game he rucks against a guy who hasn’t trained as a ruck across all of preseason. (Assuming we go with a fifty fifty)

My points are pretty simple
1- I strongly believe younger players benefit from being given a defined role

2- I believe that you only need a handful of players that can swing from spot to spot / otherwise you risk accepting mediocrity in positions purely for the sake of flexibility.

3- players should only work on flexibility after making a name in a particular spot - using jj as an example he clearly has enough work into him as a half back so working to develop a fwd craft makes sense.

A number of our backs will be playing higher this year and be forced to given the imbalance in our list so I can bear them working to develop in different positions more so than anyone else.

But I’d really like to see some of or very young kids to be settled and developed first before being thrown around.

 

[TiAn_]

Moving young KPP all over the ground during their developmental years turns them into Leigh Brown.

They’re a year of rucking Tom Boyd from permanently Leigh Browning him.

 

[cecil]

ok likely going against the flow here given everybody’s love of all things beveridge but today news about schache training fifty fifty ruck fwd was a frustration to me. This on top of trengrove, roughhead and Boyd all being fifty fifty ruckman also.

Stick with me.

Would you rather a side of jack of all trades or a side of masters ??

Would a forward trengrove plays on this year be happy he has spent half the preseason training as a ruck rather than working with the back six.

When Rance plays on schache this year do you think he is as prepared as he should be if he spent half preseason training as a ruck?

When he goes into the ruck against nankervis will he be as prepared as he should be? Would nankervis be happy that for the entire game he rucks against a guy who hasn’t trained as a ruck across all of preseason. (Assuming we go with a fifty fifty)

My points are pretty simple
1- I strongly believe younger players benefit from being given a defined role

2- I believe that you only need a handful of players that can swing from spot to spot / otherwise you risk accepting mediocrity in positions purely for the sake of flexibility.

3- players should only work on flexibility after making a name in a particular spot - using jj as an example he clearly has enough work into him as a half back so working to develop a fwd craft makes sense.

A number of our backs will be playing higher this year and be forced to given the imbalance in our list so I can bear them working to develop in different positions more so than anyone else.

But I’d really like to see some of or very young kids to be settled and developed first before being thrown around.

I agree with a lot of this. For flexibility to be an asset the player must be GOOD in both positions. This works with some of our players quite well (Picken, Toyd, JJ, Wallis come to mind), yet others such as Libba need to be chained to a role. I feel it has affected our back line, as I believe that you really need a settled core group to play together and develop an understanding.

I cringed when I read that Schache was being groomed to play in the ruck too, as we are crying out for a stay at home forward obviously. But in saying that, I do think it can help the young forwards having the ability to play on ball for 5 mins at a time. We saw that with Toyd who improved quite a lot once playing in the ruck.

Personally I'm hoping he was just wheeling out the cliches, and he has actually done a small amount of ruck training, but not 50/50. It would make sense if Beveridge feels that he can only play 3 or Roughy/Toyd/Redpath/Schache, and that Roughy isn't a lock. It could mean that Toyd plays as the main ruck, with relief from the other two. Has their been talk of Trengove playing ruck?

 

[ScragCity]

Totally agree with you, JJStringer. I was quite honestly furious when I heard the news that Schache has done a bit of rucking. I miss the days when if our rucks were injured or out of form we would send in Dunkley or Lin Jong to ruck. Tom Boyds career has already been ruined by this versatility crap. I wish he could go back to being the formidable key forward he was in 2015.

 

[Mattdougie]

Unfortunately the coaching staff seem to be repeating the errors of 2017

Going to be a long year I fear

 

[JJHunter]

Has their been talk of Trengove playing ruck?

He mentioned he was working with ruck group yes.

 

[Dazb86]

I don't mind the flankers being versatile so much.

 

[Zephiisdaman]

I'm kind of in the mind that you need about half of your team to be flexible. The two positions that doesn't allow flexibility in my opinion are Ruck and KPD. I like the idea of having a permanent ruck that is supported by a flexible player. The main KPD is just that...a KPD. Too much flexibility brings confusion to these types of player. I want my KPD to have clear thoughts and just stop his opponent kicking bags of goals.
I only agree with Schache doing ruck training if he's likely to spend 5 minutes only a quarter rucking.

 

[BEaston]

Trengove won't be played in the ruck I'm fairly certain, maybe only if all our others are injured. Roughead is not a combo player, he is a pure ruck. Boyd is a combo player but has shown a shite load more talent playing in the ruck than up forward so I'm not too fussed about him playing in the ruck more.

The jury is out on the actual effect of this training on Schache in terms of gameplay. Wait and see before getting too agitated about it IMO.

 

[Mofra]

The forwards we are putting ruckwork into - Body and Schache - both have questions marks over the competitiveness and aggression. Ruck is the perfect position to teach that.

We aren't actually throwing every player around constantly - how often have we seen Wood or Morris up forward? We've already stated Crozier will play as a HB and when we play guys there they tend to stay there, the obvious exception being JJ when we need to free him from a tag or get some pace in the middle.
I suspect Trengove will be similar - play him as a KPD where he has shown good signs.

 

[SayerTheCreator]

Could it just be a stop-gap until English is ready to tear it apart?

I do agree that Schache should never leave the forward arc, sure he can ruck when the ball is inside our fwd line but to have him train anywhere near 50/50 ruck/KPF seems counterintuitive.

 

[gangsta deluxe]

I would like a side with masters of all trades.

Bonts all over the park.

 

[stefoid]

I dont know if its all good or bad really, but I can guess at the reasoning.

First thing is Bev likes to 'keep the energy around the ball'. In the stands we forget that players are sprinting marthons whilst being beaten up. We shouldnt underestimate how much physical and mental fatigue degrades performance over the course of the game, and the ability to rest mids, including rucks up forward has probably helped us run over a lot of teams...say like in the '16 prelim and GF for instance

2nd is versatility for emergencies. - Boyds ability to fill in for Roughie against Mumford in the prelim. Boyds arguably greatest ever footy he played...when moved to the ruck in the GF. No versatility, no Premiership - think about how it would have felt to lose yet another prelim - to GWS no less....

I doubt schache in particular is being set up to play 50% of his time in the ruck. More like 15% to give the 1st ruck a chopout. Even just a little bit of practice so that he has some basic ability not to embarrass us if we have to shift him there.

 

[VitalDread]

All our KPF as inside mids

 

[Yojimbo]

It was interesting to hear Schache say he had dropped his
weight from 100 + Kg to down around 96 Kg. As muscle is
heavier than fat this should correct itself after a few good
preseasons unless we are trying to create an army of
Ayce Cordy clones and dominate the known universe.

 

[Hard Ball Get]

ok likely going against the flow here given everybody’s love of all things beveridge but today news about schache training fifty fifty ruck fwd was a frustration to me. This on top of trengrove, roughhead and Boyd all being fifty fifty ruckman also.

Stick with me.

Would you rather a side of jack of all trades or a side of masters ??

Would a forward trengrove plays on this year be happy he has spent half the preseason training as a ruck rather than working with the back six.

When Rance plays on schache this year do you think he is as prepared as he should be if he spent half preseason training as a ruck?

When he goes into the ruck against nankervis will he be as prepared as he should be? Would nankervis be happy that for the entire game he rucks against a guy who hasn’t trained as a ruck across all of preseason. (Assuming we go with a fifty fifty)

My points are pretty simple
1- I strongly believe younger players benefit from being given a defined role

2- I believe that you only need a handful of players that can swing from spot to spot / otherwise you risk accepting mediocrity in positions purely for the sake of flexibility.

3- players should only work on flexibility after making a name in a particular spot - using jj as an example he clearly has enough work into him as a half back so working to develop a fwd craft makes sense.

A number of our backs will be playing higher this year and be forced to given the imbalance in our list so I can bear them working to develop in different positions more so than anyone else.

But I’d really like to see some of or very young kids to be settled and developed first before being thrown around.

I disagree with most of this and will try and explain as best I can and work my way through your post ...

First, training in different areas is essential to being a good footballer. It develops different areas of your game and allows you to work on areas of need. The skills someone learns while spending time in defence helps that player become a better forward. In this specific example, working in the ruck will develop Shache's endurance, contested work and body positioning, second and third efforts, reading the play and much more.

A side with flexibility means we can make moves when matchups aren't working. Fans are constantly complaining that coaches "didn't make a move", when a lot of the time they are hamstrung by matchups. If Shache's getting towelled up at full forward, we can push him up the ground due to his developed tank, or perhaps play him in the ruck for 5 to force a change of match up.

An opponent won't care where their match up has been training. It's not like when he's named at CHB, Riewoldt and Buddy will think, out goody he's been training a a ruck for 50% of his preseason so he won't be up to it... and if they are thinking like that during a game... good.

If he's forced to go into the ruck against Nankervis, he'll be better prepared than he otherwise would be.

Nankervis won't care where his opponent has been training, and if he's thinking about that during a game... good.

All our young players will be given defined roles. I think you're underestimating the coaching staff if you think they are sending players out there with a million things running through their head.

I think the more flexibility you have the better, that doesn't mean we will use it every single game. It's just there, if needed. But again the main thing is it's not necessarily so a player can play that position, it's also so they develop an area of their game. Shache won't develop his tank, his repeat efforts and his body positioning sitting inside 50 all day.

Saying players should only work on flexibility after making a name in a certain spot is just wrong in my opinion. You're A. Assuming it's all about being a flexible side and B. neglecting to see all the benefits of developing other areas of your game. Once again, training in a position doesn't mean you will play a lot in that position, and even if it does, short term pain for long term development (think stringer playing as a defender).
JJ hasn't always been a half back so he's adapted that coming into the system. In fact most of the best half backs etc have to develop that because as the best players through juniors they spend mos their time on ball. A lot of players drop out of the system because when they reach the AFL, they don't know how to play anywhere else but on ball.

 

[lachy]

When developing young footballers, in order to teach them different roles or develop certain facets of the game you often play them in an entirely different position.

For example one of the best ways to develop a high key forward (CHF in old school) play the younger player at CHB. This way whilst adding a flexibility string to their bow they are also leaning running patterns, positioning and work rates of players already playing in the desired CHF position.

Playing a key forward ruck develops fitness and in close pressure skills as well as improving confidence with physical contact.

I would be more concerned in our development of players, if we were not getting our young players training and playing in both different as well as complimentary positions on the ground in modern football.

 

[paulveed]

I'm unconvinced that any position/role in the way the game is played nowadays, is so one dimensional, that young players need to be trained to fill multiple positions early in their careers, in order to develop their skill base adequately. Once they have mastered the full gamut of skills in one position, there is plenty of time to broaden the roles they can play. There are more than enough ways to play any given position, to give a kid plenty of variety in his skills base while he develops into an AFL competent player.

 

[Snake Livermore]

Unfortunately the coaching staff seem to be repeating the errors of 2017

Going to be a long year I fear

And 2016. They made all the same errors in 2016.

 

[SCRAY72]

Versatility and flexibility helped us win the 2016 flag.

 

[Norm De Guerre]

It’s a Clarkson/hawthorn thing and it worked out ok for them and by extension us.

 

[Hard Ball Get]

It’s a Clarkson/hawthorn thing and it worked out ok for them and by extension us.

It's not really though. Being flexible and multi positional has been around since the 2000s.

 

[Pugz89]

It's not really though. Being flexible and multi positional has been around since the 2000s.

Richo on the wing!

 

[BJ06]

A very valid conversation topic, but i agree with this comment. Wouldn't surprise me to learn that Schache only spending time with ruck group to work on his aggression. Which in his short career sample size, has probably been what he's struggled most with.

The forwards we are putting ruckwork into - Body and Schache - both have questions marks over the competitiveness and aggression. Ruck is the perfect position to teach that.

We aren't actually throwing every player around constantly - how often have we seen Wood or Morris up forward? We've already stated Crozier will play as a HB and when we play guys there they tend to stay there, the obvious exception being JJ when we need to free him from a tag or get some pace in the middle.
I suspect Trengove will be similar - play him as a KPD where he has shown good signs.

 

[TempleKelvington]

I thought him training in the ruck was more about getting him fitter and just adding a string to his bow? These young talls can take while to mature and playing and training only an as a forward might slow that.

I agree that we don't need him playing a lot of ruck, we need him marking the footy inside 50, but he may need a bit more development before he's able to do that week in week out, meantime he keeps in games by playing some ruck. I don't see much of a problem, unless of course he ends up not being the gun forward we hope for.