Banter Geelong V Richmond - GO!

[Wosh]

In the interests of keeping your back and forth shite fights out of match threads so normal people can talk.

Keep it clean and above the shorts
Off topic rubbish clogging up match threads will be moved here, knock yourselves out.

 

[Cleansweep17]

He had 3 superb finals series when his side was the dominant finals force and 5 finals series where he was a non-factor (when Richmond weren't dominant). It still definitely adds to his legacy greatly, but more as a "best 4 years finals run of any modern player" thing rather than a "this makes him the GOAT thing".

Don't take my word for it. Every other neutral supporter agrees. A small sub section of the most one eyed Tigers supporters argue otherwise.

I don’t think he’s the GOAT. Imo you need to be an AFL legend to be eligible.

I think Dusty, GAJ, Voss and Judd will all get one. So it’s not unreasonable for them to be in the convo.

 

[Xtreme]

Richmond's "dynasty" was for better than Geelong's "dynasty" - while neither really qualify at least Richmond went back to back! Only the good teams win 2 in a row (but the best teams threepeat cough cough cough).

 

[Mr Meow]

So why didn’t Gryan make at least the AA squad in 2023? I believe he broke/almost broke the record for assists.

You need both goals/assists and they are on record saying that. As far as I am aware Hawkins was prolific for BOTH goals and assists so a really simple method is to add them up, giving you direct goal contributions. Cross check against score involvements just to make sure (i.e a CHF might have less goals but many score involvements from work up the field). If your player is ahead on goals, assists and score involvements he is ticking off the scoring metrics very nicely indeed.

 

[Mr Meow]

I don’t think he’s the GOAT. Imo you need to be an AFL legend to be eligible.

I think Dusty, GAJ, Voss and Judd will all get one. So it’s not unreasonable for them to be in the convo.

The thing is I get why YOU could consider him the GOAT if you base it on what you have seen.

You're a Richmond supporter with a decade, give or take a couple of years, of being a passionate footy fan (watching lots of games of all different teams). If you only look at 2014 onwards Martin's body of work could be the best. If you dial it back to 2007, 2000 or 1990 (to still keep it in the AFL era) - then he falls behind. Again, you weren't following footy in those eras so I don't blame you for having a blind spot. We are here to teach.

 

[PhatBoy]

So why didn’t Gryan make at least the AA squad in 2023? I believe he broke/almost broke the record for assists.

Because that’s about all he was contributing

 

[Mr Meow]

Because that’s about all he was contributing

They pretty much admitted if he got 20 more goals and 15 less goal assists he would've been a good chance. You can be a goal assist specialist as your point of difference but you still need your ~goal a game beside it. He is a borderline wingman anyway but that's a different conversation.

But there is no doubt that Hawkins outstanding goal creation numbers for team mates (alongside still strong goal tallies) got him some of those AAs. He was a fulcrum for the whole forward line to work around (not just a cannonball to fire at the end) right up until this year and the difference is noticeable.

 

[Kobe Gryant]

Because that’s about all he was contributing

As good as Gryan is, and as important as he is to us, he's only going to get in if they pick him as a midfielder IMO, which even then wouldn't really work.

His role just doesn't suit the AA selectors agenda of pigeon-holed roles. Stengle for instance would be ahead of him in AA calculations on goals alone in the small forward ranks.

It's very similar to Blicavs in the past, where he's of utmost importance to us, but hard to quantify in comparison to other players and even harder to pigeon-hole into one position.

Gryan is a 'small forward', who doesn't really play in the forward line, who also doesn't kick a lot of goals, but rivals the best midfielders in the game in terms of score involvements.

If we were picking the AA team to actually play and win a game of football he'd absolutely be involved, but under the arbitrary metrics (like not picking wingman) it's unlikely he gets in for mine.

 

[PhatBoy]

As good as Gryan is, and as important as he is to us, he's only going to get in if they pick him as a midfielder IMO, which even then wouldn't really work.

His role just doesn't suit the AA selectors agenda of clean cut roles. Stengle for instance would be ahead of him in AA calculations on goals alone in the small forward ranks.

It's very similar to Blicavs in the past, where he's of utmost importance to us, but hard to quantify in comparison to other players and even harder to pigeon-hole into one position.

Gryan is a 'small forward', who doesn't really play in the forward line, who also doesn't kick a lot of goals, but rivals the best midfielders in the game in terms of score involvements.

If we were picking the AA team to actually play and win a game of football he'd absolutely be involved, but under the arbitrary metrics (like not picking wingman) it's unlikely he gets in for mine.

Agreed.

 

[Lunchtime]

As good as Gryan is, and as important as he is to us, he's only going to get in if they pick him as a midfielder IMO, which even then wouldn't really work.

His role just doesn't suit the AA selectors agenda of pigeon-holed roles. Stengle for instance would be ahead of him in AA calculations on goals alone in the small forward ranks.

It's very similar to Blicavs in the past, where he's of utmost importance to us, but hard to quantify in comparison to other players and even harder to pigeon-hole into one position.

Gryan is a 'small forward', who doesn't really play in the forward line, who also doesn't kick a lot of goals, but rivals the best midfielders in the game in terms of score involvements.

If we were picking the AA team to actually play and win a game of football he'd absolutely be involved, but under the arbitrary metrics (like not picking wingman) it's unlikely he gets in for mine.

And there lies another problem, which is a completely separate discussion, about the thinking of All Australian selectors.

Year after year players miss out because they don't do this and they don't do that or they are not multi tasked etc and yet their output throughout the year clearly shows they are worthy of getting All Australian selection.....and they miss out.

It is at times difficult to take the All Australian awards seriously.

 

[Mr Meow]

And there lies another problem, which is a completely separate discussion, about the thinking of All Australian selectors.

Year after year players miss out because they don't do this and they don't do that or they are not multi tasked etc and yet their output throughout the year clearly shows they are worthy of getting All Australian selection.....and they miss out.

It is at times difficult to take the All Australian awards seriously.

It's not a problem for Martin though, an attacking midfielder with license to rotate forward and fill up with goals. These types of players can be picked on the wings, any of the midfield spots, either of the forward flanks and usually take up at least 3 spots on the bench. At times they even get picked in a forward pocket or on a back flank. There are about 13 spots from which to choose. Every other non midfielder has about 9 spots to cover 4 or 5 different roles. You pretty much have to be in the top 2 to have a chance for your position.

Where AA selection is an issue, is for genuine wingmen or creative half forward flankers, or crumbing small forwards (usually just one picked) or lockdown key defenders (small or tall) who do not get a lot of the ball. Or pure defenders/forwards in general. These types suffer obstacles to get in the side. Martin never did.

 

[Lunchtime]

It's not a problem for Martin though, an attacking midfielder with license to rotate forward and fill up with goals. These types of players can be picked on the wings, any of the midfield spots, either of the forward flanks and usually take up at least 3 spots on the bench. At times they even get picked in a forward pocket or on a back flank. There are about 13 spots from which to choose. Every other non midfielder has about 9 spots to cover 4 or 5 different roles. You pretty much have to be in the top 2 to have a chance for your position.

Where AA selection is an issue, is for genuine wingmen or creative half forward flankers, or crumbing small forwards (usually just one picked) or lockdown key defenders (small or tall) who do not get a lot of the ball. Or pure defenders/forwards in general. These types suffer obstacles to get in the side. Martin never did.

My comment wasn't highlighted to Martin. It was a general comment.

 

[Mr Meow]

My comment wasn't highlighted to Martin. It was a general comment.

And mine provided an overall analysis of the talking point, highlighting how midfielders get an easier ride into AA than the other positions I mentioned. Thus comparing them for AA selections (within the group of midfielders) is a valid method, along with coaches/Brownlow votes averages and top 5/10/20 placements, BnF victories etc. Tally it all up and you get a pretty good measure of their elite playing spans.

 

[Mr Meow]

My comment wasn't highlighted to Martin. It was a general comment.

I would say the top 10 or 12 midfielders of each season basically always get selected for AA. There could be a couple of exceptions here and there, but it is not like being the best wingman and still missing out (often), best small defender and missing out (often), the second best half forward and missing out or the 3rd best tall defender/forward and missing out.

 

[smasha]

Richmond's "dynasty" was for better than Geelong's "dynasty" - while neither really qualify at least Richmond went back to back! Only the good teams win 2 in a row (but the best teams threepeat cough cough cough).

Richmond beat you plenty of times in your threepeat era.
We did not get sucked off by the umps either in our dynasty.

 

[Cleansweep17]

The thing is I get why YOU could consider him the GOAT if you base it on what you have seen.

You're a Richmond supporter with a decade, give or take a couple of years, of being a passionate footy fan (watching lots of games of all different teams). If you only look at 2014 onwards Martin's body of work could be the best. If you dial it back to 2007, 2000 or 1990 (to still keep it in the AFL era) - then he falls behind. Again, you weren't following footy in those eras so I don't blame you for having a blind spot. We are here to teach.

There are two types of footy people and the following question separates them:

Who was the best player of the 2020 (Full) season?

 

[Cleansweep17]

Because that’s about all he was contributing

Yet you guys think he’s an apparent AA lock for this season (again)

 

[Mr Meow]

There are two types of footy people and the following question separates them:

Who was the best player of the 2020 (Full) season?

You're a Richmond supporter with a decade, give or take a couple of years, of being a passionate footy fan (watching lots of games of all different teams). If you only look at 2014 onwards Martin's body of work could be the best. If you dial it back to 2007, 2000 or 1990 (to still keep it in the AFL era) - then he falls behind. Again, you weren't following footy in those eras so I don't blame you for having a blind spot. We are here to teach.

 

[PhatBoy]

Richmond beat you plenty of times in your threepeat era.
We did not get sucked off by the umps either in our dynasty.

Oh how DID you cope with an extra half a free kick every quarter or so against you. It must have been terrifying for all concerned. I’m just glad you got through it unscathed

 

[PhatBoy]

Yet you guys think he’s an apparent AA lock for this season (again)

can you point me to anyone either season that constitutes all of ‘us guys’ who think he’s a lock either season, and then on top of that show us where he hasn’t markedly improved his all round game this year?


Almost every single measure a player can be gauged by has gone up this year EXCEPT his goal assists - and he’s still a fraction (0.11) outside the top 10 in the league for that anyway but virtually every player in front of him is a specialist midfielder. He’s gone up in disposals by 3 per game, tackles, contested possessions, disposal efficiency, down in clangers, gives away less free kicks, gets an extra clearance per game, even extra 1 per centres.


He’s literally tripled his goal output per game so far - going at almost a goal per match where he was kicking one every three games last year.

So that would explain the extra interest from people saying not that he should be in the team, but that out of the Geelong players, he is among those in consideration

 

[Cleansweep17]

You're a Richmond supporter with a decade, give or take a couple of years, of being a passionate footy fan (watching lots of games of all different teams). If you only look at 2014 onwards Martin's body of work could be the best. If you dial it back to 2007, 2000 or 1990 (to still keep it in the AFL era) - then he falls behind. Again, you weren't following footy in those eras so I don't blame you for having a blind spot. We are here to teach.

Seriously after your diversion comments to me, you really dodge the question I just asked. Answer it

Who was the best player of the 2020 season?

 

[Cleansweep17]

can you point me to anyone either season that constitutes all of ‘us guys’ who think he’s a lock either season, and then on top of that show us where he hasn’t markedly improved his all round game this year?


Almost every single measure a player can be gauged by has gone up this year EXCEPT his goal assists - and he’s still a fraction (0.11) outside the top 10 in the league for that anyway but virtually every player in front of him is a specialist midfielder. He’s gone up in disposals by 3 per game, tackles, contested possessions, disposal efficiency, down in clangers, gives away less free kicks, gets an extra clearance per game, even extra 1 per centres.


He’s literally tripled his goal output per game so far - going at almost a goal per match where he was kicking one every three games last year.

So that would explain the extra interest from people saying not that he should be in the team, but that out of the Geelong players, he is among those in consideration

It’s in the 2024 AA thread.

Also I’ll ask you as well. Who was the best player of the 2020 season?

 

[Mr Meow]

Seriously after your diversion comments to me, you really dodge the question I just asked. Answer it

Who was the best player of the 2020 season?

You don't even deserve this since you refuse to acknowledge any points I raise, but whatever.

The 2020 season for Richmond was a special case as so much of their season was in finals. They went the long way in finals after going through a shortened COVID H&A: 4 finals compared to 17 H&A (finals made up 20% of the games). A typical premiership season these days is 23 H&A games and 3 finals (so finals make up 12% of the games). Therefore finals games were weighted almost doubly in that season compared to a standard one.

Anyway for 2020: It's close between Neale and Martin.

Neale was miles and miles ahead in H&A.

In 2020 Martin started with a bad final but then had 3 brilliant follow ups. Neale played 2 finals, ranked outside the top 6 players in one game and 2nd BOG in a losing side in the other. Is it actually Neale's fault he didn't get the extra two finals to play in? Is it his fault that Richmond's team had 3 excellent finals, while Brisbane's only had 1 good final? Plug Martin in that choking Brisbane side and he isn't dragging them to a premiership, sorry. Plug Neale into the dominant finals force and of course he would excel.

I can't really answer until you give me answers and thoughts on every point I have raised here.

 

[Mr Meow]

It’s in the 2024 AA thread.

Also I’ll ask you as well. Who was the best player of the 2020 season?

Find the posts demanding Miers is a lock for the AA side, rather than being in the conversation for top performing creative half forwards this season. It's acknowledged that these types don't get picked, even if he has raised his goal kicking. Go on, have a try at proving otherwise though.

 

[Cleansweep17]

You don't even deserve this since you refuse to acknowledge any points I raise, but whatever.

The 2020 season for Richmond was a special case as so much of their season was in finals. They went the long way in finals after going through a shortened COVID H&A: 4 finals compared to 17 H&A (finals made up 20% of the games). A typical premiership season these days is 23 H&A games and 3 finals (so finals make up 12% of the games). Therefore finals games were weighted almost doubly in that season compared to a standard one.

Anyway for 2020: It's close between Neale and Martin.

Neale was miles and miles ahead in H&A.

In 2020 Martin started with a bad final but then had 3 brilliant follow ups. Neale played 2 finals, ranked outside the top 6 players in one game and 2nd BOG in a losing side in the other. Is it actually Neale's fault he didn't get the extra two finals to play in? Is it his fault that Richmond's team had 3 excellent finals, while Brisbane's only had 1 good final? Plug Martin in that choking Brisbane side and he isn't dragging them to a premiership, sorry. Plug Neale into the dominant finals force and of course he would excel.

I can't really answer until you give me answers and thoughts on every point I have raised here.

I already told you I agree with your previous points. He was elite for 4-5 seasons. Is there something else?

Now please give a definitive answer to my question. Dusty or Neale?

 

[Mr Meow]

I already told you I agree with your previous points. He was elite for 4-5 seasons. Is there something else?

Now please give a definitive answer to my question. Dusty or Neale?

Why would I put that effort into a post if you are just going to ignore it all. You are behaving like a simpleton capable of one liner "gotchas" and nothing more. Read the actual post, acknowledge or dispute each point I make and you will deserve an answer. Otherwise you are conceding you simply have no idea what you are talking about.