Analysis Hawthorn rebuild: are they tanking?

[Dewyyyyy]

Kingsley's was a total overhaul of the system.

2 and a third years is enough to have a really solid base in place.

Personally I think Mitchell will end up a good coach. You can see some really well drilled attacking patterns sometimes.

At the moment he doesn't have the players and you can see some pretty clear rookie errors.

The cutting of experience would be a coach killer if he wasn't a Hawthorn great that will get extra time.

And the plan is chopping and changing too much. You watch a Hawthorn game and you don't know whether they're going to be a sling shot team on the day or whether they're going to be trying to chip it through the press.The good teams and coaches tweak for opposition strengths and weaknesses. But most of the signatures remain. Hawthorn totally change.

I’ll ignore the rest since I’ve covered it.

Hawthorn have the talent
Inexperience and mistakes also a
The plan changing and not having a DNA is a huge massive

Hawthorns DNA is clear if you watch games but maybe you don’t. Bar the Melbourne first quarter they don’t do long periods of chipping it around.

The DNA is fast and precise ball movement, built off intercept and a high press behind the ball, pressure around the ball and an attack around the ground to force turnover. The midfield is good enough to also score through congestion and stoppages. Every team also has changes (RED, YELLOW GREEN) - Keep possession, take what the defense gives & run and link up fast.

Sometimes this is not properly executed by a young and inexperienced list but it’s a clear DNA.

 

[Dewyyyyy]

I'm using game sense more broadly than you. To me it includes getting system and structure and being able to flourish within it.

I agree but I also think there’s too many variables that saying someone does or doesn’t have it. Ward was an example and i think he has it, but he does overthink and needs to gain confidence because when he does he looks absolutely class and tears games open, also capable of high end production. I’ve been in his shoes, thinking too much about structure and not backing myself in, it happens to a lot of people and there are a multitude of examples of players.

 

[sr36]

I’ll ignore the rest since I’ve covered it.

Hawthorn have the talent
Inexperience and mistakes also a
The plan changing and not having a DNA is a huge massive

Hawthorns DNA is clear if you watch games but maybe you don’t. Bar the Melbourne first quarter they don’t do long periods of chipping it around.

The DNA is fast and precise ball movement, built off intercept and a high press behind the ball, pressure around the ball and an attack around the ground to force turnover. The midfield is good enough to also score through congestion and stoppages. Every team also has changes (RED, YELLOW GREEN) - Keep possession, take what the defense gives & run and link up fast.

Sometimes this is not properly executed by a young and inexperienced list but it’s a clear DNA.

First half against pies was a very clear plan to spread and chip through us. Second half was numbers to the contest and run and gun. It was bi-polar. If the game plan isn't bedded down yet, there's your issue. Players making dramatic pattern changes.

And yes all clubs shift within games, but not so dramatically.

 

[boncer34]

I mean it's apples and oranges.

They lost GAJ to a basket case side.

We lost Buddy to a direct competitor and beat them in the Grand Final.

It's also a lot easier to replace GAJ with one of your many midfielders. It's a bit harder to replace the best CHF of the century with Ryan Schoenmakers.

Exhibit A

 

[sr36]

I agree but I also think there’s too many variables that saying someone does or doesn’t have it. Ward was an example and i think he has it, but he does overthink and needs to gain confidence because when he does he looks absolutely class and tears games open, also capable of high end production. I’ve been in his shoes, thinking too much about structure and not backing myself in, it happens to a lot of people and there are a multitude of examples of players.

Wards played some good footy at AFL early on. He's not the type I'm talking about. I'm talking the kid with all the tools who still looks a bit lost in their second year of reserves. They just rarely make it - despite the tools. And fans stick with the draft pick number and early hype for years and pencil tem in as future stars - just need to be patient. We've got one in our ressies at the moment. And our current draft philosophy of going for high end athletes is going to throw up a heap. But I think the rationale is that your flankers just have to have serious wheels in the current game. More busts but bigger wins.

 

[sr36]

I mean it's apples and oranges.

They lost GAJ to a basket case side.

We lost Buddy to a direct competitor and beat them in the Grand Final.

It's also a lot easier to replace GAJ with one of your many midfielders. It's a bit harder to replace the best CHF of the century with Ryan Schoenmakers.

Pretty tough cobbling together a forward line when all you've got is Roughy, Gunston, Cyril, Bruest and Poppy at their peak.

 

[Dewyyyyy]

Wards played some good footy at AFL early on. He's not the type I'm talking about. I'm talking the kid with all the tools who still looks a bit lost in their second year of reserves. They just rarely make it - despite the tools. And fans stick with the draft pick number and early hype for years and pencil tem in as future stars - just need to be patient. We've got one in our ressies at the moment. And our current draft philosophy of going for high end athletes is going to throw up a heap.

My point was that Ward experiences the same thing despite not being that type, which is why you can’t group them as one. But if you’re thinking Finlay Macrae than I agree but I still find it intriguing with how little he has played and just his role, it changed so much. You’ve also gotta be upfront with youth, if you move them around too much it provides a false sense and makes them not establish themselves, also confidence is key.

But the original point is not grouping them together.

 

[Crankyhawk]

So two and a half years and the gamestyle is still being bedded down.

Do you think this is normal? Perhaps if they had've kept their senior players this may have gone a bit quicker?

Tom Mitchell was an impediment to the new system. Kept demanding the ball in shit locations then would either before passing off (often backwards). Couldn’t break lines after his broken leg

 

[bluespooner]

I mean it's apples and oranges.

They lost GAJ to a basket case side.

We lost Buddy to a direct competitor and beat them in the Grand Final.

It's also a lot easier to replace GAJ with one of your many midfielders. It's a bit harder to replace the best CHF of the century with Ryan Schoenmakers.

Geelong got 2 first round draft picks for Ablett jnr whilst Hawthorn was given pick 19 for Franklin (not even first round).

This together with the Jack Bowes first round draft pick all the while being allowed to spread his salary commitment from the GC over multiple years. Then you have trading pick 27 in 2021 for pick 52 in 2022. Defacto assistance of Geelong by the AFL which continues with the umpiring as well.

 

[SSSSSS]

Pretty tough cobbling together a forward line when all you've got is Roughy, Gunston, Cyril, Bruest and Poppy at their peak.

Yeh they were a handy bunch.

 

[SSSSSS]

Exhibit A

 

[sr36]

Tom Mitchell was an impediment to the new system. Kept demanding the ball in s**t locations then would either before passing off (often backwards). Couldn’t break lines after his broken leg

I keep reading this from Hawk fans, how difficult he was to coach and how washed up he was.

Meanwhile I saw him recruited by two of his former coaches, play a really tight effective role without kick chasing and at times driving our aggressive options and I saw him nearly win a Norm Smith. He probably would have due to his job on Neale if medals were given for defence as well as attack.

 

[sr36]

Yeh they were a handy bunch.

Wouldn't have been fun for a defender when Buddy was beside them as well.

 

[Dewyyyyy]

I keep reading this from Hawk fans, how difficult he was to coach and how washed up he was.

Meanwhile I saw him recruited by two of his former coaches, play a really tight effective role without kick chasing and at times driving our aggressive options and I saw him nearly win a Norm Smith. He probably would have due to his job on Neale if medals were given for defence as well as attack.

He was superb in some games and not in others. Still has his contested side, in and under. But he played more HF when Sam Mitchell came as he wanted to bleed more time into the youth especially through the midfield. Like he was good against Hawthorn in gather round but he was ball chasing more in his last few years at hawthorn after his broken leg, which got worse with his positional change. 2021 as a pure mid he was very good. But because he was “x” whilst at Hawthorn doesn’t mean it has to be the same at Collingwood. It wasn’t like that his whole time at either Sydney or Hawthorn.

 

[SSSSSS]

I keep reading this from Hawk fans, how difficult he was to coach and how washed up he was.

Meanwhile I saw him recruited by two of his former coaches, play a really tight effective role without kick chasing and at times driving our aggressive options and I saw him nearly win a Norm Smith. He probably would have due to his job on Neale if medals were given for defence as well as attack.

Maybe the penny finally dropped that it's not all about Tom.

He is certainly divisive. Two coaches didn't rate him. Two coaches did.

 

[boncer34]

Yes I appreciate you letting me stay.

 

[Yoda_]

Maybe the penny finally dropped that it's not all about Tom.

He is certainly divisive. Two coaches didn't rate him. Two coaches did.

awkward the two coaches that rated him have premierships while two that didn't (apparently, assuming John Lnogmire) played him in all 6 games before requesting a trade and another who moved him on and gone backwards since taking on the Hawthorn job.


I dunno about you but I think maybe, just maybe, the coaches who rated him can see the positive side to his game

 

[SSSSSS]

awkward the two coaches that rated him have premierships while two that didn't (apparently, assuming John Lnogmire) played him in all 6 games before requesting a trade and another who moved him on and gone backwards since taking on the Hawthorn job.


I dunno about you but I think maybe, just maybe, the coaches who rated him can see the positive side to his game

I don't think it was necessarily for footballing reasons that he didn't get along with two coaches.

Like his dad, the apple doesn't fall very far from the tree.

 

[Yoda_]

I don't think it was necessarily for footballing reasons that he didn't get along with two coaches.

Like his dad, the apple doesn't fall very far from the tree.

lucky hes employe as a footballer then ey, a premiership one at that now

 

[SSSSSS]

lucky hes employe as a footballer then ey, a premiership one at that now

I'm happy for him.

 

[Yesterday Dog]

Yes they are tanking. They should have buried us

 

[SSSSSS]

Yes they are tanking. They should have buried us

We tried but unfortunately Gunners left his radar behind in Queensland.

 

[sr36]

He was superb in some games and not in others. Still has his contested side, in and under. But he played more HF when Sam Mitchell came as he wanted to bleed more time into the youth especially through the midfield. Like he was good against Hawthorn in gather round but he was ball chasing more in his last few years at hawthorn after his broken leg, which got worse with his positional change. 2021 as a pure mid he was very good. But because he was “x” whilst at Hawthorn doesn’t mean it has to be the same at Collingwood. It wasn’t like that his whole time at either Sydney or Hawthorn.

His times nearly up. There were some games near the end of the last year when we were in a high training load and he looked done.

But if Sammy and him had've worked better together, what a player to have to help develop your kids. I do think it's a real rookie coach move to think you can do it all yourself without the help of senior pros.

 

[Dewyyyyy]

His times nearly up. There were some games near the end of the last year when we were in a high training load and he looked done.

But if Sammy and him had've worked better together, what a player to have to help develop your kids. I do think it's a real rookie coach move to think you can do it all yourself without the help of senior pros.

I don’t believe that he’d of made a big enough of a difference for it to be worth carrying him. He wouldn’t have played in the middle, it would’ve spelt the end of Worpel who played poorly with him in the middle and our midfield dynamic was much better when he left. Training standards and experience are one thing but long term it was the best decision.

Although I think he’s been good for you, I’ve always been a huge fan and everyone knows this. He’s someone who you can manage and once finals and high pressure football starts his element opens up.

 

[sr36]

Maybe the penny finally dropped that it's not all about Tom.

He is certainly divisive. Two coaches didn't rate him. Two coaches did.

I haven't heard the Roos or was it Longmire rumours. I've always assumed that they were just really stacked for inside mids ence him being in and out of the team.