Opinion How the Tigers took Riewoldt from great to average

[ReaperX]

I think most people prefer Jack closer to goal and kicking bags, even part of me does as well... however I tell you what I'd REALLY prefer:

I'd prefer for Jack to play his current position and still kick his 45-50 goals per season, but have Ben Griffiths and Tyrone Vickery kicking 90+ goals between them as well.

It's amazing how good our team would be if we could get the Griffiths and Vickery combo playing to their potential, but because they often don't (Griffiths has been getting better but still a way to go, and Vickery just has zero confidence at the moment), it makes the Riewoldt move look silly, when in actual fact the reasoning behind the move makes perfect logical sense on paper.

This is the story of Richmond at the moment. The coach cops the spray from the supporters for stuff like this, but if you actually analyze it and use your brain, you realize that it's a pretty good game-plan on paper... but the troops keep letting us down.

Like some people have said previously... maybe the true problem is Dimma having too much faith in these players when they just aren't good enough?

Lloyd should be directing his article at Vickery and Griffiths not stepping up to the plate regularly enough tbh.

 

[Charlie Pannam]

Park the Lloyd hatred for a moment and think what is best for Richmond.

Is it one of the best KPF starting in the middle or half back o deep forward?

If you were a defender standing hip to hip with Riewoldt with Deledio streaming through the centre square would you feel nervous?

Or is it better as a defender that you zone off your opponent who has.gone up the ground and play as an extra in defence

Agree that Worsfold would have been having a good moment with every possession Jack got in the middle of the ground. Even a 100% effective disposal up there will no where near hurt as much as a 50% efficient disposal from 30 out from goal. At the end of the day the team that wins is not the one who gets the most ball in the middle (although that helps) but it's the team that scores the most.

Riewoldt and Richmond are both going backwards whilst this stupid game plan continues.

It's sad to see how this guy has had his natural aspects coached out of him at the expense of scoring.

Agree
Also Jack's creativity in the forwardline can often create opportunities for teammates. Much better to be creating those opportunities close to goal. The likes of Rioli and Lloyd would really benefit.

 

[theflea]

The article is half right.

Riewoldt was a great player when he was predominately inside forward 50 kicking massive bags of goals.

However, the fallacy of this article is saying that he still isn't just as good as he was, let alone even better than he was, but in a different role.

Riewoldt won his two colemans in a side that didn't play finals football, for the TEAM to get better, we needed more options to develop, and that is difficult to accomplish when Riewoldt is getting everything kicked to him.

It's the same logic as when Richo was pushed onto a wing in 2008, ironically enough, to give players like Riewoldt more opportunity to develop their game inside forward 50.

Tell me Matthew, what's better; having a player who's capable of kicking a bag inside forward 50, or having a player who's capable of kicking a bag inside forward 50 AND ALSO capable of generating scores for his teammates and fellow forwards up the ground?

Jack Riewoldt might not be winning coleman medals anymore, but he's actually a better all-round player nowadays, than he was in 2010-2012, and if we can just get a few blokes to stand up inside 50 and start providing consistent and reliable performances on a weekly basis (looking at you Vickery and Griffiths), we'll be a MUCH better team for it in the future.

Its a self defeating prophecy. If he is a stay at home fwd, then he is tag teamed by multiple defenders, particularly with our non entity other fwds, and our ordinary fwd set up. It would just be more of the same without the creativity of Jack a little further up the ground.

 

[Rodney Dangerfield]

Good article by Lloyd, I dont get this BS playing Jack up the ground where his possesions are meaningless. This "assist" rubbish is just that, rubbish, their are 18 players ahead of him in totals and 21 in averages, he needs to stay inside 50 where as one of the best key forwards in the game can do the most damage.

I agree it was a good and fair article but I don't think his touches are meaningless up the ground to be fair.
I reckon he's probably the best 'footballer' I've probably seen in a Richmond jumper Jack, brilliant field kick both feet, amazing hands and vision he's got the lot and is a terrific player right now.
If he had a gun forward ahead of him he would be deadly.
But he doesn't.
I can see what Lloyd is saying too but he's forgetting if Jack played deep He would need Jack kicking it to him!
He's a victim of playing in an average team unfortunately and needs to play too many roles.
Great footballer.

 

[ReaperX]

I agree it was a good and fair article but I don't think his touches are meaningless up the ground to be fair.
I reckon he's probably the best 'footballer' I've probably seen in a Richmond jumper Jack, brilliant field kick both feet, amazing hands and vision he's got the lot and is a terrific player right now.
If he had a gun forward ahead of him he would be deadly.
But he doesn't.
I can see what Lloyd is saying too but he's forgetting if Jack played deep He would need Jack kicking it to him!
He's a victim of playing in an average team unfortunately and needs to play too many roles.
Great footballer.

To play devils advocate for a moment here... with this in mind, should we seriously consider getting Travis Cloke into the club?

I understand he's had issues at Collingwood with form, but he's shown he's got some elite talent, and perhaps his best wouldn't quite be past him if he had somebody like Jack Riewoldt to work with in the forward line?

 

[Rodney Dangerfield]

To play devils advocate for a moment here... with this in mind, should we seriously consider getting Travis Cloke into the club?

I understand he's had issues at Collingwood with form, but he's shown he's got some elite talent, and perhaps his best wouldn't quite be past him if he had somebody like Jack Riewoldt to work with in the forward line?

It's a fair question mate.
Personally and it's only my opinion of course I think Travis is a bit like Ty and they struggle with the movement of today's game. Neither are strong overhead in a contested situation and almost belong to another era I think.
They are often out of position and lack the athletic attributes for repeat leads and efforts.
Think it would take a beast like forward of which there aren't many around or an athletic type.
If Darcy Moore walked through the doors tomorrow I think I'd cry.

 

[ReaperX]

It's a fair question mate.
Personally and it's only my opinion of course I think Travis is a bit like Ty and they struggle with the movement of today's game. Neither are strong overhead in a contested situation and almost belong to another era I think.
They are often out of position and lack the athletic attributes for repeat leads and efforts.
Think it would take a beast like forward of which there aren't many around or an athletic type.
If Darcy Moore walked through the doors tomorrow I think I'd cry.

I see what you mean RE Cloke and Vickery, in terms of the movement side of things, however in terms of contested marking, Cloke at his best is an absolute beast of a player. And also, I would think that Cloke still moves better than Vickery.

Vickery for me feels like one of those players who's caught in no-man's land between ruck and forward, and isn't quite good enough one way or the other. He's not physical enough in the ruck duels to be a competitive primary ruckman/part time forward, but he's also not nimble/agile enough, nor does he give enough 2nd or 3rd efforts, to be a primary forward/part time ruck. If I was leaning one way and you put a gun to my head, I'd have him as a primary forward/part time ruck, but I would do so with very little confidence.

As for Cloke though... well I still have nightmares about that Round 4 clash in 2013, when he absolutely manhandled Alex Rance and kicked 7 on him. As history shows, between then and now, Alex has not lost too many one on one duels, and he certainly hasn't been bullied around like that since then.

I don't think he's lost that skill, I just feel like Collingwood's game-plan has changed so much, that he's become the decoy rather than the true target, and his directive is to no longer play that way, because Collingwood are wanting diversity and their younger attacking options to be the focal point.

If he was given a 2 year contract at the Tigers, and told "we'll kick it to you in one on ones, and you clunk everything you can", and then surround him with Edwards, Rioli, and Yarran to crumb at his feet in 2017, that would give us an incredibly dynamic forward line. Provided that those speedy types provide the adequate pressure, we could become a very dangerous footy team inside forward 50.

Finally, to bring it back to the main topic... the fact that in the above setup, we'd still have Jack Riewoldt lurking around in his current position as well, and capable of pushing forward in a three-tall forward line with Cloke and Griffiths.... I mean surely I can't be the only one who drools at this potential prospect?

 

[A Tiger 4 lyf]

Always hated jack up the ground, especially since we have no other KPF thats a ******* threat to the opposition

 

[Dyerbolicals]

Hmmm, then why are so many of the games greats spuffing they're loads all over him?

 

["The Roar Is Back"]

picking up a tall forward who is mobile is a must .
hello thomilson.
also I wonder what autumn leaves has thought when clarkson has played roughhead as a mid ?

 

[Livonski]

So we had more enjoyment watching jack win the Coleman, so put him back there?
Did we erase the 1v2 contests from that point onwards? He was pummelled but worked his guts out to be at least effective.
The JR we have now is a brilliant footballer to watch. Creative, smart, exceptional on his left. He takes strong marks between the arcs which is crucial for transition. Has a tank to do it all day.
If he'd started his career as a high half forward punters would be screaming if he was shifted deep forward.
Will go close to the B&F this year.

 

[TheProwler]

Park the Dimma hatred for a moment!!

The fact is JR is better in his current role and obsessions over his individual statistics highlight how deficient our list is particularly regarding KPP's where we rely on the likes of TV.

To fuss over JR's goal number highlights how limited our KPP options are!!

Define better please. I look forward to this.

 

[This Is Anfield]

So we had more enjoyment watching jack win the Coleman, so put him back there?
Did we erase the 1v2 contests from that point onwards? He was pummelled but worked his guts out to be at least effective.
The JR we have now is a brilliant footballer to watch. Creative, smart, exceptional on his left. He takes strong marks between the arcs which is crucial for transition. Has a tank to do it all day.
If he'd started his career as a high half forward punters would be screaming if he was shifted deep forward.
Will go close to the B&F this year.

Where the **** did this average bullshit come from?
Jack is becoming a complete footballer.
Oh look. A random stick lying about...let's pick it up and beat up Richmond with it.

 

[Rodney Dangerfield]

It's one thing to be disappointed Jack isn't full forward but if you can't recognize what a great player, and better player in fact he is now then I reckon that's crazy.

 

[This Is Anfield]

It's one thing to be disappointed Jack isn't full forward but if you can't recognize what a great player, and better player in fact he is now then I reckon that's crazy.

And maybe, just maybe, we whack a whole heap on responsibility and confidence into Ben Griffiths and we could have TWO gun forwards.

 

[Rodney Dangerfield]

And maybe, just maybe, we whack a whole heap on responsibility and confidence into Ben Griffiths and we could have TWO gun forwards.

Only one way to find out.

 

[Boston tiger]

So we had more enjoyment watching jack win the Coleman, so put him back there?
Did we erase the 1v2 contests from that point onwards? He was pummelled but worked his guts out to be at least effective.
The JR we have now is a brilliant footballer to watch. Creative, smart, exceptional on his left. He takes strong marks between the arcs which is crucial for transition. Has a tank to do it all day.
If he'd started his career as a high half forward punters would be screaming if he was shifted deep forward.
Will go close to the B&F this year.

Interesting points . Is double teaming more of a problem for the opposition or for the team getting double teamed.
We solved the problem by putting Jack in areas where the opposition no longer felt the need to double team him and he could show us all his amazing football abilities.
Are we a better team because of it? Who knows.

 

[Gentlemen]

Jack should be played deeper, he is one of the best forwards to wear a Richmond jumper and one of the smartest on a field.

Have Griff play the traditional CHF role, he's shown he can take marks up the ground and his boot is a weapon, have a third tall stay out of Jack's space but offer another option forward.

But I don't know anything about tactics so eh

 

[Rodney Dangerfield]

Basically it comes down to us not bring a very good team.
Ask yourself how good Jack would be if he played for a good team playing the role he does now.
He'd be the best player in the game I reckon.

 

[This Is Anfield]

Jack should be played deeper, he is one of the best forwards to wear a Richmond jumper and one of the smartest on a field.

Have Griff play the traditional CHF role, he's shown he can take marks up the ground and his boot is a weapon, have a third tall stay out of Jack's space but offer another option forward.

But I don't know anything about tactics so eh

He will again, the rest of this season is to find out what else we've got.
Jack Reiwoldt is not one of Richmond's problems, no matter where he plays.

 

[mopsy]

Problem is we dont have a real good tall hit up player so Jack does the role which creates another problem because we just dont have a real good deep tall fwd which jack is. He can not be in two places at once.
Been saying it for years we need another high quality KPF and we definately need to find a third tall in the Tom Lynch adelaide mould or Jack Gunston type.

If Griffiths can play consistently well deep or at F/F lets go and get a Adam Tomlinson type who has a huge tank and can perform the hit up role leaving JR to do as he pleases.With C Moores pace and agility we could even play a fourth tall.

 

[Boston tiger]

Jack should be played deeper, he is one of the best forwards to wear a Richmond jumper and one of the smartest on a field.

Have Griff play the traditional CHF role, he's shown he can take marks up the ground and his boot is a weapon, have a third tall stay out of Jack's space but offer another option forward.

But I don't know anything about tactics so eh

I thought our forward line looked the best when we had Miller playing a traditional CHF and having an honest go and Jack at full forward.

 

[PerthBoy87]

I see what you mean RE Cloke and Vickery, in terms of the movement side of things, however in terms of contested marking, Cloke at his best is an absolute beast of a player. And also, I would think that Cloke still moves better than Vickery.

Vickery for me feels like one of those players who's caught in no-man's land between ruck and forward, and isn't quite good enough one way or the other. He's not physical enough in the ruck duels to be a competitive primary ruckman/part time forward, but he's also not nimble/agile enough, nor does he give enough 2nd or 3rd efforts, to be a primary forward/part time ruck. If I was leaning one way and you put a gun to my head, I'd have him as a primary forward/part time ruck, but I would do so with very little confidence.

As for Cloke though... well I still have nightmares about that Round 4 clash in 2013, when he absolutely manhandled Alex Rance and kicked 7 on him. As history shows, between then and now, Alex has not lost too many one on one duels, and he certainly hasn't been bullied around like that since then.

I don't think he's lost that skill, I just feel like Collingwood's game-plan has changed so much, that he's become the decoy rather than the true target, and his directive is to no longer play that way, because Collingwood are wanting diversity and their younger attacking options to be the focal point.

If he was given a 2 year contract at the Tigers, and told "we'll kick it to you in one on ones, and you clunk everything you can", and then surround him with Edwards, Rioli, and Yarran to crumb at his feet in 2017, that would give us an incredibly dynamic forward line. Provided that those speedy types provide the adequate pressure, we could become a very dangerous footy team inside forward 50.

Finally, to bring it back to the main topic... the fact that in the above setup, we'd still have Jack Riewoldt lurking around in his current position as well, and capable of pushing forward in a three-tall forward line with Cloke and Griffiths.... I mean surely I can't be the only one who drools at this potential prospect?

Ive been thinking about this for a while - I reckon perhaps Richmond should go after Cloke, he would offer us something for sure, a tall presence up forward, but where up forward who knows - full forward or centre-half-forward. I guess the thing is, are Richmond interested in Cloke?

 

[sante]

Dimma has done this to more than Jack. Cotch is the same. Instead of trying to win games themselves, they are too eager to involved their teammates

 

[Charlie Pannam]

I thought our forward line looked the best when we had Miller playing a traditional CHF and having an honest go and Jack at full forward.

Miller wasnt much chop, but as you say was good for our structure. A player that can play that role (but obviously a better version of Miller) is what the forward line lacks. Mopsy's post re that lead up forward also hit the nail on the head.

KB and Ralphy were talking about Jack playing up the ground on SEN radio. They both agreed that he should be played Deep forward. KB is a bit old fashioned but made a very good point, that Garry Ablett senior was a brilliant footballer who could have played on the wing or CHB but then wouldn't have kicked 1400 hundred goals and be near as effective as he was.