Vic How would you rate Daniel Andrews' performance as Victorian Premier? - Part 7

[Sttew]

I know that ambos have it drilled into them they must accurately record what happened, i.e., what they were told, what their observations are etc, as so much is riding on that information when it comes to treating the injured patient. Whether a car struck the cyclist at some speed versus the cyclist crashing into a stationary car is NOT something ambos will get wrong, IMPO

Given they were 'on the scene', and given police never interviewed the cyclist and only interviewed Mr & Mrs A a month later, I know which evidence has more weight. So it begs the question - why lie, and why compound that lie by digging deeper, e.g., "The cyclist should be charged"?

 

[Pakenhamsaint]

I look forward to Mondays exclusive story about the stairs. The car crash and the stairs seem to be the only things the Herald Sun care about.

 

[GreyWind]

I look forward to Mondays exclusive story about the stairs. The car crash and the stairs seem to be the only things the Herald Sun care about.

Only if the ambos paperwork back up the claim that Andrews was bashed, if he just fell then he was forcing the ambos to write the paperwork that way.

 

[Sttew]

I look forward to Mondays exclusive story about the stairs. The car crash and the stairs seem to be the only things the Herald Sun care about.

And we're 3 1/2 years out from an election...

 

[adogsfan5]

And we're 3 1/2 years out from an election...

That’s a lot of years of whataboutism and finger pointing.

 

[Crankyhawk]

I know that ambos have it drilled into them they must accurately record what happened, i.e., what they were told, what their observations are etc, as so much is riding on that information when it comes to treating the injured patient. Whether a car struck the cyclist at some speed versus the cyclist crashing into a stationary car is NOT something ambos will get wrong, IMPO

Given they were 'on the scene', and given police never interviewed the cyclist and only interviewed Mr & Mrs A a month later, I know which evidence has more weight. So it begs the question - why lie, and why compound that lie by digging deeper, e.g., "The cyclist should be charged"?

I would like to see the specific report (it could be a descriptino of the estimate speed of the cyclist) - depending on the exact wording - can't trust the journalist as I have said before I have no faith in their basic intelligence as a profession - yes you are correct that the ambulance documentation would or should carry more weight than a recount by Mr(s) A a month later - but I just have a distrust of the journo's ability to interpret.

 

[Not Important]

ambulance report usually written after arrival to hospital and after offload - locally now that can be several hours, so some error may creep in - though probably less of an issue 10+ years ago. Some reports are pretty minimal too.

as the only person with any first-hand knowledge of patient care reports i’d be interested in knowing when would an ambulance arriving after a road accident include such things as the speed the car was travelling at the time? how would they be qualified to know? i thought the ambo patient care report was exactly that and was about the patient's clinical condition eg signs, symptoms, communication, responsiveness etc. rather than specific details of the road accident such as the speed the car was travelling. surely that would be a function of the police who specialise in assessing/measuring such matters. all very odd.

 

[Crankyhawk]

as the only person with any first-hand knowledge of patient care reports i’d be interested in knowing when would an ambulance arriving after a road accident include such things as the speed the car was travelling at the time? how would they be qualified to know? i thought the ambo patient care report was exactly that and was about the patient's clinical condition eg signs, symptoms, communication, responsiveness etc. rather than specific details of the road accident such as the speed the car was travelling. surely that would be a function of the police who specialise in assessing/measuring such matters. all very odd.

GreyWind is better placed, but I think they usually estimate based on combination of what those involved in the crash claim and observed damage

 

[Sttew]

GreyWind is better placed, but I think they usually estimate based on combination of what those involved in the crash claim and observed damage

And why is estimated speed recorded? Because it may give some insight into the nature and extent of injuries?

 

[GreyWind]

as the only person with any first-hand knowledge of patient care reports i’d be interested in knowing when would an ambulance arriving after a road accident include such things as the speed the car was travelling at the time? how would they be qualified to know? i thought the ambo patient care report was exactly that and was about the patient's clinical condition eg signs, symptoms, communication, responsiveness etc. rather than specific details of the road accident such as the speed the car was travelling. surely that would be a function of the police who specialise in assessing/measuring such matters. all very odd.

Speed comes from posted speed limits on the road, witness statements and damage. Not qualified to actually know, it's more of a guestimate and coming from prior experience.

PCRs can be as detailed or as sparse as you want.

Speed is an important factor because it determines which hospital to take the pt.

 

[Not Important]

GreyWind is better placed, but I think they usually estimate based on combination of what those involved in the crash claim and observed damage

hmm! a lot made of little more than second hand info which wouldn't appear to be their role.

 

[Pakenhamsaint]

I would like to see the specific report (it could be a descriptino of the estimate speed of the cyclist) - depending on the exact wording - can't trust the journalist as I have said before I have no faith in their basic intelligence as a profession - yes you are correct that the ambulance documentation would or should carry more weight than a recount by Mr(s) A a month later - but I just have a distrust of the journo's ability to interpret.

I suspect the Herald Suns strategy here is to try to frame Andrews as corrupt and has been for some time. Hence going back to the car crash and the Ambulance report.

The odds are the report isn't what the journo thinks it says.

 

[Not Important]

Speed comes from posted speed limits on the road, witness statements and damage. Not qualified to actually know, it's more of a guestimate and coming from prior experience.

PCRs can be as detailed or as sparse as you want.

Speed is an important factor because it determines which hospital to take the pt.

maybe, but they have no expertise and it's not their primary role. the police have a specialist squad to measure such matters in the more serious accidents and the road traffic police are trained to gather the info in the less serious road accidents. relying on an ambo report, which is not their primary function, seems tenuous to say the least.

 

[Sttew]

I suspect the Herald Suns strategy here is to try to frame Andrews as corrupt and has been for some time. Hence going back to the car crash and the Ambulance report.

The odds are the report isn't what the journo thinks it says.

What is ambiguous about the section of Ambo report quoted:

"15YO on bike. Struck on L side by car travelling 40 to 60kmh … PT onto bonnet, then onto windscreen which cracked on impact … thrown onto roadway”

 

[adogsfan5]

Surely we’re not at the point of diminishing the quality and accuracy of an AV report?
Haha f**k me…

Just admit he lied, his version of the story was clearly false, he hit the cyclist at a certain speed level and then move on to the next topic.

It’s really not that hard.

 

[Crankyhawk]

What is ambiguous about the section of Ambo report quoted:

"15YO on bike. Struck on L side by car travelling 40 to 60kmh … PT onto bonnet, then onto windscreen which cracked on impact … thrown onto roadway”

Yes. The ambiguity in that direct quote is that the cyclist could be the one moving (though if the car was stationary usually they would specifically say car was stationary)

 

[Not Important]

What is ambiguous about the section of Ambo report quoted:

"15YO on bike. Struck on L side by car travelling 40 to 60kmh … PT onto bonnet, then onto windscreen which cracked on impact … thrown onto roadway”

if the lawyers intend using an ambulance officer's assessment of the speed of a vehicle in court proceedings, they are struggling. it’s not their primary function. it’s the primary function of the police.

another ‘slobbo’ warner beat up.

 

[Not Important]

Surely we’re not at the point of diminishing the quality and accuracy of an AV report?
Haha f**k me…

Just admit he lied, his version of the story was clearly false, he hit the cyclist at a certain speed level and then move on to the next topic.

It’s really not that hard.

didn't know you were present doggsy. you certainly get around.

the only matter of factual concern is that the police didn't do a breath test.

 

[GreyWind]

Surely we’re not at the point of diminishing the quality and accuracy of an AV report?
Haha f**k me…

Just admit he lied, his version of the story was clearly false, he hit the cyclist at a certain speed level and then move on to the next topic.

It’s really not that hard.

How many PCRs have you read?

 

[Crankyhawk]

if the lawyers intend using an ambulance officer's assessment of the speed of a vehicle in court proceedings, they are struggling. it’s not their primary function. it’s the primary function of the police.

another ‘slobbo’ warner beat up.

no, the lawyer isn't struggling, they are still going to get paid.
and it would be whether there is sufficient doubt caused by counter evidence. So (and again, no direct knowledge beyond what is posted here) we have this ambulance report which to me (despite what I have been saying) does lead towards the car hitting cyclist rather than cyclist hitting stationary car; and that is documented contemporaneously against the counter story from Mr and Mrs A, which is a statement from a month later, and could be assumed to also be self interested, so my guess is that there would be less weight

though exactly what is the cyclist hoping to get from this trial anyway? medical expenses are covered by TAC aren't they?

 

[adogsfan5]

didn't know you were present doggsy. you certainly get around.

the only matter of factual concern is that the police didn't do a breath test.

And why didn’t they?

 

[Sttew]

if the lawyers intend using an ambulance officer's assessment of the speed of a vehicle in court proceedings, they are struggling. it’s not their primary function. it’s the primary function of the police.

another ‘slobbo’ warner beat up.

I think the critical point is STATIONARY v MOVING. Why do you think ambos would get something so critical wrong? As others have posted, whether the cyclist was or was not struck by a moving car will impact on what hospital he was taken to, whether internal injuries was a possibility to be investigated.

There were so many things wrong with how this matter was handled by Police. It surprises me not one bit Police won't reopen the case.

 

[Satan]

no, the lawyer isn't struggling, they are still going to get paid.
and it would be whether there is sufficient doubt caused by counter evidence. So (and again, no direct knowledge beyond what is posted here) we have this ambulance report which to me (despite what I have been saying) does lead towards the car hitting cyclist rather than cyclist hitting stationary car; and that is documented contemporaneously against the counter story from Mr and Mrs A, which is a statement from a month later, and could be assumed to also be self interested, so my guess is that there would be less weight

though exactly what is the cyclist hoping to get from this trial anyway? medical expenses are covered by TAC aren't they?

truth?

 

[Saint]

I don't know anything about ambo reports, but I've read thousands of police reports of crashes.

This one is pretty basic to assess on first principles. The bike path is 20m from the intersection and the road is only 4m wide. A bike at 10km/h (very slow speed) would reach the middle of that road (where the collision must have happened if the bike hit the car on the right hand side) in about a second (0.72 seconds).

For a car to arrive from the intersection and strike a bike which has already entered the road within 1 (0.72) second, it would have had to be going 100km/h, which would be physically impossible on that bend and the car wouldn't have stopped before hitting a tree.

If the bike was only doing 20 km/h (slow for a bike), the car would have had to be going 200km/h.

You don't think the Herald Sun has spoken to a dozen crash investigators and received this advice?

Maybe Michael Warner hasn't because he's clearly out of his depth. But there are people here lapping this garbage up, like it proves corruption or lying, when all it does is show how easily misled they can be.

Since the ambos weren't there. My guess is that there assessment is written down as the worst-case based on what they're told at the scene. So they wrote a conservative band of speed (40-60). There's no way that information came from the ambos making a calculation, or the cyclist, who, if he saw the car for long enough to know how fast it was going, would have stopped for it.

A BAC test absolutely should have been done at the scene of a road crash.

 

[adogsfan5]

I don't know anything about ambo reports, but I've read thousands of police reports of crashes.

This one is pretty basic to assess on first principles. The bike path is 20m from the intersection and the road is only 4m wide. A bike at 10km/h (very slow speed) would reach the middle of that road (where the collision must have happened if the bike hit the car on the right hand side) in about a second (0.72 seconds).

For a car to arrive from the intersection and strike a bike which has already entered the road within 1 (0.72) second, it would have had to be going 100km/h, which would be physically impossible on that bend and the car wouldn't have stopped before hitting a tree.

If the bike was only doing 20 km/h (slow for a bike), the car would have had to be going 200km/h.

You don't think the Herald Sun has spoken to a dozen crash investigators and received this advice?

Maybe Michael Warner hasn't because he's clearly out of his depth. But there are people here lapping this garbage up, like it proves corruption or lying, when all it does is show how easily misled they can be.

Since the ambos weren't there. My guess is that there assessment is written down as the worst-case based on what they're told at the scene. So they wrote a conservative band of speed (40-60). There's no way that information came from the ambos making a calculation, or the cyclist, who, if he saw the car for long enough to know how fast it was going, would have stopped for it.

A BAC test absolutely should have been done at the scene of a road crash.

Was Andrews car stationary and t-boned by the cyclist - yes or no?