Is it gonna get worse before it gets better?

[Val Keating]

Depends on your version of worse. My version of worse would be finding form now the season is dead and finish 9-10th.

Leaving LDU, Ahern in the 2’s and both ask for a trade at seasons end due to lack of opportunity.

 

[The Warlord]

Depends on your version of worse. My version of worse would be finding form now the season is dead and finish 9-10th.

Leaving LDU, Ahern in the 2’s and both ask for a trade at seasons end due to lack of opportunity.

Yep, I'm genuinely scared that if Old Fart in the Lft Scott hangs around for the last year of his contract, players will walk/be lured away.

 

[benbanjo]

The name for this is tanking

 

[Star]

If we were to finish bottom 2, then we must become audacious and get both Rowell AND Anderson to the club

Best 2 players in the draft, best mates, imagine they play together, they’re going NO WHERE!!
add LDU, Simpkin and Ahern etc to the mix and you potentially have the most dynamic young midfield in the league
One in a million chance I know, but do whatever it takes North

Whether it involves trades/ future picks for the Crows, do not die wondering, have a crack Roos

Audacity could deliver us Clarkson (at least a decent attempt to lure him) and two picks in the Top 5 next year. Audacious is the very thing we are incapable of being.

To be fair, most clubs tend to be conservative with their list management approach. I reckon Hawthorn have been best at moving players on to better their position. Anyway, I'd boot every coach and put everyone else over 23 on the table and see what bites there are.

 

[The Warlord]

Audacity could deliver us Clarkson (at least a decent attempt to lure him) and two picks in the Top 5 next year. Audacious is the very thing we are incapable of being.

Ummm, I'm gunna call massive bull droppings on that.

We tried to snare Josh Kelly and Dusty Martin in the same season.

That was genuinely audacious.

 

[mouncey2franklin]

They say it is always darkest before dawn.

Since dawn is not contractually possible until the end of 2020, I figure that there are much darker times ahead.

Which is a little scary tbh fam.

One positive thing which can be said about the Scotts tenure is that no good players have been poached from us.

Imagine if this changes during the off-season.

It has been a long time since a star player did a knee (EVW is a future star).

What if we start copping the kind of injury problems other clubs have suffered?

To top it off, I can see Brads Scotts going out of his way to win in rounds 20+ and we miss the elite end of the draft pool again.

Then all we'd need is for Ziebells to do silly things with Tarrant's missus and it would be time to shut up shop, methinks.

 

[showusyacunningt]

I think if we have a change of coach prior to next year then the rest of this year could be as bad as it's gonna get. Our list is still pretty good, we've got all of the ingredients there to build a good side. Obviously depends on us picking the right coach too.

 

[ferball]

The problem is that what Brad Scott thinks is the team that gives him the best chance of winning games and what actually is the best team doesn’t match up. It’s always been a blind spot for match committee under his tenure – he rates stability and “the best 22” more than just about any other coach IMO. Win game, keep the same 22 (they’ve earned it). Lose game, keep the same 22 (back them in). There a magical best 22 in his mind that all know their perfect role. It’s the reason Maj couldn’t get a game even when outperforming a declining Petrie. It’s the reason Boomer had to get moved on (because Brad would just continue to play him in the middle instead of moving him out to the HFF). His loyalty and stubbornness hurts him more than anyone else in the end. No team in the league will ever have the same best 22 players from start to end of the year but he seems incapable of ever recognising this and injecting fresh talent. It’s the reason a player that has been average for the last 2 years in Lmac gets rushed back in as if he is peak Wells).

This has been Brad’s problem for years, he is his own worst enemy. He’s playing teams to save his job but those teams are the opposite of what will save his job. Like a dog chasing its tail and never understanding that even if it ever manages to catch that tail it won’t result in the joy that they hoped for.

Edit: PS - Before anyone gets into me about it not being the players that are the problem (agree at a high level) I can't agree. I'm a believer that selection and the way teams manage ins and outs shapes the culture of the playing team significantly. It says as much to the group as any amount of team review and meetings.



Which is obviously never going to happen. We'll get 2 decent picks this year. I'd suggest an open ear might get a few extra picks in the door around the 20-40 range without crippling the club in the medium term. Otherwise, we back what there is of the list that is <30 to not turn out such an atrocious year next year (under a new coach). I may be naive but I refuse to believe that this list is not capable of competitive football with the right systems in place.

One of Scotts' issues is that he is so systems driven.

I think it was early 2016 when stats for a few years came out suggesting that the most successful teams were the most stable ones. Ie the ones with the smallest regular playing list and most regular stable players.

Obviously because better players in better teams win more and don't get dropped ... but you can just see Scott getting all meta about it and trying to tweak reality by playing the same team and forcing the universe to give him success by not changing them.

 

[ferball]

I think if we have a change of coach prior to next year then the rest of this year could be as bad as it's gonna get. Our list is still pretty good, we've got all of the ingredients there to build a good side. Obviously depends on us picking the right coach too.

You know if he's still coaching next year we'll be a top 4 side and probably win the flag.

Its just bound to happen given this s**t show.

 

[koshari]

Obviously depends on us picking the right coach too.

I heard boomer saying on the radio the other day that teams spend the majority of their training time doing match sims, he also said if some players are not ball hunters they might get say half a dozen disposals, from this he said doesn't leave players much time to improve their skills. he mentioned that some of the current high usage match plans rely on a series of skilled disposals and that teams that don't have the required skills match-plans then simply fall down.

 

[ferball]

I'm sorry but trading Cunnington is insane.

I don't think you need to apologise for that Hilly.

 

[ferball]

I heard boomer saying on the radio the other day that teams spend the majority of their training time doing match sims, he also said if some players are not ball hunters they might get say half a dozen disposals, from this he said doesn't leave players much time to improve their skills. he mentioned that some of the current high usage match plans rely on a series of skilled disposals and that teams that don't have the required skills match-plans then simply fall down.

Our skills are shitful.

If this is the case (no time for proper skills work) we need a program that gets players to work on their skills when under duress from fatigue, flashing lights, people hitting them with pool noodles and various other annoying and difficult distractions.

 

[ferball]

There is a lot of this stuff around. Here's something that's interesting:
Let’s break these concepts down with some real world analogies or examples. I spent a few years coaching American football at differing levels from youngsters to High School Varsity football. I was always amazed when working with or watching a coach who ran a practice void of live drills taken to a “logical conclusion”. When game losses occurred, which they invariably do when practicing this way, those same coaches always seemed stymied as to why the boys could look so good in “non-live” practice, and yet play so poorly at game time. The short answer is poor training. Let me explain the concepts that I refer to in quotations: “Muscle Memory” is the bodies’ ability to perform a function of varying difficulty under duress without having to think or process the steps required to perform the function. This occurs when the task has been performed properly so often that it can be accomplished, seemingly effortlessly, even under stressful situations. Human Factors Psychologist will tell you that the number of repetitions required to place something into muscle memory depends on the complexity of the task and can run anywhere from 30-50 for very simple tasks to upwards of 800-1000 for the more complicated tasks. Couple the need for muscle memory with the fact that under duress the first actions that suffer are those that either require fine motor skills to accomplish or require excessive thought to execute. Therefor those actions that can be executed without having to think about them, are less likely to abandon you under pressure. Taking things to a “logical conclusion” in training means not stopping short of likely outcomes expected to occur on game day or in real life situations. For instance, when performing tackling drills, you don’t stop the drill at impact, but rather continue to the logical conclusion of;A. Taking the runner to the ground,B. Missing the tackle for any number of reasons, orC. A training stop is reached such as a touchdown or a fumble occurring.So to train properly, you must allow enough repetition to develop “muscle memory” when performing the task, and then train the task under realistic conditions, allowing training stops to only occur when a “logical conclusion” is reached. Additionally, for complex tasks you must use a building block approach that escalates in difficulty. The idea is to master the simpler tasks before moving on to the more complex tasks wherever possible. This takes a very disciplined approach to training and the insistence that sufficient time be allocated to train this way. So back to the confused football coach who couldn’t understand the losses. I spoke with one of the High School Varsity coaches after watching weeks of practices that were woefully inadequate in developing the muscle memory required to perform under duress and failing to take the training drills to logical conclusions. When I explained what I was seeing, the coach made several excuses for this type of training, citing fear of injury with such practices and the overly safety conscious environment football was currently under, to name just a couple. The coach never changed his approach and suffered a 1-9 season.

 

[amaz199]

There is a lot of this stuff around. Here's something that's interesting:
Let’s break these concepts down with some real world analogies or examples. I spent a few years coaching American football at differing levels from youngsters to High School Varsity football. I was always amazed when working with or watching a coach who ran a practice void of live drills taken to a “logical conclusion”. When game losses occurred, which they invariably do when practicing this way, those same coaches always seemed stymied as to why the boys could look so good in “non-live” practice, and yet play so poorly at game time. The short answer is poor training. Let me explain the concepts that I refer to in quotations: “Muscle Memory” is the bodies’ ability to perform a function of varying difficulty under duress without having to think or process the steps required to perform the function. This occurs when the task has been performed properly so often that it can be accomplished, seemingly effortlessly, even under stressful situations. Human Factors Psychologist will tell you that the number of repetitions required to place something into muscle memory depends on the complexity of the task and can run anywhere from 30-50 for very simple tasks to upwards of 800-1000 for the more complicated tasks. Couple the need for muscle memory with the fact that under duress the first actions that suffer are those that either require fine motor skills to accomplish or require excessive thought to execute. Therefor those actions that can be executed without having to think about them, are less likely to abandon you under pressure. Taking things to a “logical conclusion” in training means not stopping short of likely outcomes expected to occur on game day or in real life situations. For instance, when performing tackling drills, you don’t stop the drill at impact, but rather continue to the logical conclusion of;A. Taking the runner to the ground,B. Missing the tackle for any number of reasons, orC. A training stop is reached such as a touchdown or a fumble occurring.So to train properly, you must allow enough repetition to develop “muscle memory” when performing the task, and then train the task under realistic conditions, allowing training stops to only occur when a “logical conclusion” is reached. Additionally, for complex tasks you must use a building block approach that escalates in difficulty. The idea is to master the simpler tasks before moving on to the more complex tasks wherever possible. This takes a very disciplined approach to training and the insistence that sufficient time be allocated to train this way. So back to the confused football coach who couldn’t understand the losses. I spoke with one of the High School Varsity coaches after watching weeks of practices that were woefully inadequate in developing the muscle memory required to perform under duress and failing to take the training drills to logical conclusions. When I explained what I was seeing, the coach made several excuses for this type of training, citing fear of injury with such practices and the overly safety conscious environment football was currently under, to name just a couple. The coach never changed his approach and suffered a 1-9 season.

Very interesting read.

If Brad isn't training the players in match conditions, then there could be some serious issues that go unnoticed. Whether it might be defensive deficiencies or other important metrics. This could be a major reason as to why we started so poorly. I think some seriously dangerous assumptions were made about certain players performing well including the players we brought in, without considering the consequences of not working on what their previous clubs couldn't fix, and what our own players had been struggling with.

Letting players play instinctive, but organised football is hard to coach. Very hard. It is also very difficult to train players to withstand the intense pressure of GD which is why practice matches and the pre-season exist. If Brad failed to see the issues with the team and the issues with the game plan implemented for the team to execute, then he has failed to prepare, which has lead to preparing to fail unknowingly. Which frustrates the supporters that see the same issues reappearing week after week.

If there isn't enough muscle memory or drilled-in common sense in the players when under duress, we are in serious trouble. But I think a lot of this year's issues are definitely on the coach. Mainly Brad.

Brad tried to make his side play a style with little room for error and little room for turnovers, a style we hadn't implemented since the 2013 season. With a largely different list. With new inclusions, there should be a simpler style of play that allows for flexible input to make it better. Not make something completely complicated and confusing right off the bat.

We tried to be a top high-possession side without even knowing if we were capable of it. Having never tried it before, it would make sense to only try it when the list has chemistry. Not in its first season.

 

[The Warlord]

Our skills are shitful.

If this is the case (no time for proper skills work) we need a program that gets players to work on their skills when under duress from fatigue, flashing lights, people hitting them with pool noodles and various other annoying and difficult distractions.

Our skills have been shitful for 15 years.

 

[Star]

Ummm, I'm gunna call massive bull droppings on that.

We tried to snare Josh Kelly and Dusty Martin in the same season.

That was genuinely audacious.

No question that was audacious.

Two things though.

1. Are we going to hang our hats on two failed attempts to procure a couple of stars?

2. My original comments go to our player retention model. We're too 'comfortable' with the players we have on our list and too content with mediocre output from them. This is where we can be much more audacious. I refer specifically to mid-aged players with 75-150 games that frankly won't get better. We don't drop under performing 24 to 28yo with 75-150 games experience let alone delist them en-masse.

 

[ferball]

Our skills have been shitful for 15 years.

Yes. Its bullshit.

Its the one thing that has probably cost us flags, well at least one, under Brad. Definitely cost us winning finals and seasons where we could have played in them.

All this talk about development and game plans doesn't mean alot to me with this glaring *en hole in our game.

 

[ferball]

BTW That article I linked to above is excellent.

I'd recommend anyone read it and I might even post the text of the whole thing in the random bollox thread.

 

[koshari]

BTW That article I linked to above is excellent.

I'd recommend anyone read it and I might even post the text of the whole thing in the random bollox thread.

golfers speak of pretty much the same approach, the idea is to get ny flaws out of your swing by perfecting the muscle memory so that when the stresses of the cut or playoff holes kicks in your swing doesnt go to water as the robust swing is all the body knows.

 

[Twinkletoes]

Nathan Buckley was asked about skills coaching this morning on SEN and he said they don’t coach skills, but instead coach repeated high pressure game scenarios to hone players’ decision making and the skills generally improve as a result.

 

[King Corey]

Nathan Buckley was asked about skills coaching this morning on SEN and he said they don’t coach skills, but instead coach repeated high pressure game scenarios to hone players’ decision making and the skills generally improve as a result.

Hardly like we don't do this either. Scenarios like aggressive vendor bidders, inconclusive pest inspection reports, borrowing against equity and cross-collateralising - players constantly have to work out how to close out contracts under these very trying conditions.

 

[ferball]

golfers speak of pretty much the same approach, the idea is to get ny flaws out of your swing by perfecting the muscle memory so that when the stresses of the cut or playoff holes kicks in your swing doesnt go to water as the robust swing is all the body knows.

Its how you train all skills. If you want to be good.

If you've ever met one of those old chinese blokes who teach Tai Chi. They move so slowly but can move so fast when they want to.

 

[Supreme_Chancellor]

Unfortunately, I’ve been too emotionally and physically scarred from the embarrassing disappointment that was the final season of Game of Thrones to even give a s**t about North’s problems. They’ve escaped the discussion again.

 

[koshari]

Unfortunately, I’ve been too emotionally and physically scarred from the embarrassing disappointment that was the final season of Game of Thrones to even give a **** about North’s problems. They’ve escaped the discussion again.

your far more progressive than me, I still haven't got over the "a star is born" ending or round 1 against freo!

 

[B4Bear]

There is a lot of this stuff around. Here's something that's interesting:
Let’s break these concepts down with some real world analogies or examples. I spent a few years coaching American football at differing levels from youngsters to High School Varsity football. I was always amazed when working with or watching a coach who ran a practice void of live drills taken to a “logical conclusion”. When game losses occurred, which they invariably do when practicing this way, those same coaches always seemed stymied as to why the boys could look so good in “non-live” practice, and yet play so poorly at game time. The short answer is poor training. Let me explain the concepts that I refer to in quotations: “Muscle Memory” is the bodies’ ability to perform a function of varying difficulty under duress without having to think or process the steps required to perform the function. This occurs when the task has been performed properly so often that it can be accomplished, seemingly effortlessly, even under stressful situations. Human Factors Psychologist will tell you that the number of repetitions required to place something into muscle memory depends on the complexity of the task and can run anywhere from 30-50 for very simple tasks to upwards of 800-1000 for the more complicated tasks. Couple the need for muscle memory with the fact that under duress the first actions that suffer are those that either require fine motor skills to accomplish or require excessive thought to execute. Therefor those actions that can be executed without having to think about them, are less likely to abandon you under pressure. Taking things to a “logical conclusion” in training means not stopping short of likely outcomes expected to occur on game day or in real life situations. For instance, when performing tackling drills, you don’t stop the drill at impact, but rather continue to the logical conclusion of;A. Taking the runner to the ground,B. Missing the tackle for any number of reasons, orC. A training stop is reached such as a touchdown or a fumble occurring.So to train properly, you must allow enough repetition to develop “muscle memory” when performing the task, and then train the task under realistic conditions, allowing training stops to only occur when a “logical conclusion” is reached. Additionally, for complex tasks you must use a building block approach that escalates in difficulty. The idea is to master the simpler tasks before moving on to the more complex tasks wherever possible. This takes a very disciplined approach to training and the insistence that sufficient time be allocated to train this way. So back to the confused football coach who couldn’t understand the losses. I spoke with one of the High School Varsity coaches after watching weeks of practices that were woefully inadequate in developing the muscle memory required to perform under duress and failing to take the training drills to logical conclusions. When I explained what I was seeing, the coach made several excuses for this type of training, citing fear of injury with such practices and the overly safety conscious environment football was currently under, to name just a couple. The coach never changed his approach and suffered a 1-9 season.

What you described here is pretty much how the Army trains its recruits. You break the thing to be taught/trained into small parts, knit them together through repetition and then practice the whole thing until its conclusion.

As an example, I was trained on the Self Loading Rifle, way back in the early 1980s. We trained with that thing so much, that even now, after the weapon was replaced with the Steyer 20 years ago, I feel confident that I could still use it without missing a beat. The term we use is Immediate Action or IA for short. A happens, B is the automatic response. Most of the time you don't even realise what you have done until it is over.

Anyone who has been involved in teaching or training will tell you that repetition (muscle memory) is the key to long term retention.

The thing about fine motor skills being the first thing to go under stress is so true. When learning to use a pistol they constantly stressed: Slow is smooth, smooth is fast. To make this work in practice, the fine motor skills that are normally required for pistol handling were adapted into 'gross motor' movements. Then we practiced, over, and over and over again. The emphasis was on getting it right 100% of the time, reduced time comes through being proficient at what you are doing. Although to be fair, I am still a s**t shot with a pistol, but at least I look smooth doing it. And that is because I simply haven't trained with it enough.