Is sandilands over rated?

[pokerspiv]

I tend to agree with Matthews about tap-work but it seems bizarre to single out Sandilands since his work around the ground is also the best in the league.

Someone posted yesterday that Sandilands has the most contested marks per game of any ruckman in the league.

 

[basashi]

Let's go to Leigh if we want someone's jaw broken behind the play, when they are looking in the other direction.

Other than that....

 

[Schauermann]

Well, I think expectations on ruckmen are often quite huge. They generally tend to average around 10 not 20 disposals. And only a few take a lot of marks or kick a lot of goals. Mostly the ones that spend a lot more time forward then Sandi.

 

[Harry Reems]

I think his comments were blown out of proportion, mainly thanks to Adrian Barich on the Channel 7 news last night. God help us if he had of said something along the lines of "Nick Naitanui is the only player ever to be selected All Australian based on potential rather than performance.

Sandi is currently ranked 1st for contested possessions and 2nd in hit outs and was BOG against Collingwood in round 1.

Naitanui is ranked 19th in contested possessions and averages 10 possessions a game.

Sandi has had an outstanding year thus far thanks to a full pre-season. Even on Friday night when we were slaughtered he was one of our better players.

He was AA for three years straight from 2008 to 2010 and won our fairest and best in 2009.

He's at the tail end of his career we all know, but he is still our number one ruckman.

 

[slicedndiced]

Essendon don't rate him at all.

They more than likely won't have a ruckman at all this weekend.

 

[Kram]

Mathews was overrated.

 

[slicedndiced]

Mathews was overrated.

Harsh. He was an exceptional footballer over a very long time.

Take out the legendary sniping, (Bruns etc/old-fashioned footy), and he dominated in a very, very good side.

 

[Kram]

Harsh. He was an exceptional footballer over a very long time.

Was joking, I've hardly even seen him play.

 

[UFO Tatsu]

Essendon don't rate him at all.

They more than likely won't have a ruckman at all this weekend.

not sure how much of carlisle and daniher's efforts were due to them or the fact they were up against warnock?

 

[MinerBoy]

Hi guys, hope you don't mind the intrusion.

To me the question shouldn't be about Sandilands but the position in general. As a ruckman, Sandi is one of the best. However, the position, while necessary, isn't as important as most others on the ground. Some people will have vastly different opinions to me on this and I accept that but I think ruckman are over rated in general, rather than yours specifically being over rated.

 

[pokerspiv]

Yeah I think that was the point Matthews was making.

Generally as long as you are providing enough of a contest to prevent the opposition ruckman from taking full possession, the main way a ruckman influences the game is in his work around the ground. Generally because midfielders tend to stick on each other during ruck duels, whoever wins the ruck is only a very rough guide to who wins the clearance.

Where a ruck knock can be really decisive is when one team has more numbers at the ball than the other and therefore the ruckman can direct it to a player on his own. Great example of that was Stephen Hill's final goal against Geelong in the final in 2013 (although Sandilands admitted he didn't see Hill and he was just going for the boundary line to preserve the lead).

 

[Clems Knee]

Grant Thomas didn't rate ruck men. He was an average (at best) coach. Ross Lyon does. Enough said.

While hit outs don't matter too much, nor do clearances as stats. Because a clearance from the centre which dribbles over the boundary is given the same waiting as a Stephen Hill bullet pass to the chest of Matthew Pavlich. Hit outs to advantage, they matter. Sandilands is pretty good at them. Contested Marks matter too. Sandi does well there, when he is on. Does Flappy? (Cox's advantage is he is mobile like another midfielder, but I don't think he takes too many contested marks).

One ordinary game out of three and the Sandi haters come out of the woodwork. How about the two before?

Sandilands can dominate a game like no one else we have, except maybe Pav in the past, and Fyfe in the future. I realise Matthews was really just talking about hit outs being overrated, but Sandi is much more than that.

 

[clogged]

Ruckmen vary in effectiveness during the home and away season, but are crucial in finals.

By contrast, very rarely do key forwards stand up and dominate big finals. But everyone agrees that you probably need at least one half decent one to go far.

 

[pokerspiv]

http://maflonline.squarespace.com/m...3/6/29/game-statistics-and-game-outcomes.html

 

[UFO Tatsu]

http://maflonline.squarespace.com/m...3/6/29/game-statistics-and-game-outcomes.html

erm ... your point?

 

[Taylor]

Ruckmen are totally pointless in today's game, except when they aren't playing.

Richmond goes into a game with a VFL ruck against Minson who is much better than average, no surprise to me they lost.

 

[pokerspiv]

erm ... your point?

Pretty obviously that hitouts have an extremely low correlation with winning. Half as strong as the next weakest stats (tackles/1%ers/stoppage clearances).

The interesting thing is how much more strongly kick differential correlates than handball differential. Obviously both are a measure of possession but there's a big difference between having more handballs than your opponent and having more kicks.

 

[slicedndiced]

You get synchonicity between a dominant ruckman and a mid and it is a thing of rare beauty.

Look at the combinations of Farmer and Cable, (gulp), Gardiner and Cousins and what we see with Sandi and Fyfe/Barlow.

 

[valkorum]

You get synchonicity between a dominant ruckman and a mid and it is a thing of rare beauty.

Look at the combinations of Farmer and Cable, (gulp), Gardiner and Cousins and what we see with Sandi and Fyfe/Barlow.

Lets be fair, that was far more about Cousins than Gardiner

 

[UFO Tatsu]

Pretty obviously that hitouts have an extremely low correlation with winning. Half as strong as the next weakest stats (tackles/1%ers/stoppage clearances).

The interesting thing is how much more strongly kick differential correlates than handball differential. Obviously both are a measure of possession but there's a big difference between having more handballs than your opponent and having more kicks.

in that case, we might as well delist all our ruckmen, save the salary cap and get dawson to ruck the whole game

 

[UFO Tatsu]

Lets be fair, that was far more about Cousins than Gardiner

cousin made all the weagles ruck look good

 

[valkorum]

cousin made all the weagles ruck look good

And Gardiner was a crab of a ruckman

 

[slicedndiced]

Lets be fair, that was far more about Cousins than Gardiner

Gardiner could ruck ok back in the day. He still had to hit Cuzzy on the fly. Not easy.

 

[strobe00]

I did a similar analysis last year to the stuff Pokerspiv posted, except I used premiership points instead of margin as the criteria.

Inside 50s were the clear standout. Total Disposals, Uncontested Possessions and Kicks were a couple of notches below.

Winning the hitouts meant almost nothing. Clearances were mid-pack as well.

The major issue we had in the first half against Hawthorn was a woeful fumbliness around the clearances, an inability to win contested ball and an inability to pressure them quickly enough to bottle it back up. Our mids/Sandi let them shark Sandi's taps almost at will, and the Hawks didn't fumble when they were near the ball. Shifting Crowley, De Boer and Suban away from the centre clearances helped. By then, most of the damage was done. Confidence was shot and the game was out of our hands.

I said before the game that I thought De Boer's hands were as good as Fyfe's (in terms of giving off quick handballs)... what I forgot is how fumbly those hands are in picking up the ball. No point being a gun handballer if you can't pick it up. Suban was similar. Shifting Hill, Mundy and PearceD into the centre clearances and an onball role helped a lot there, as they were cleaner in picking it up and applied pressure much more quickly if we lost control of it.

 

[Taylor]

in that case, we might as well delist all our ruckmen, save the salary cap and get dawson to ruck the whole game

That would be silly, you'd play an extra mid at the bounce

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If we don't have an even ruck contest our structure at the stoppage is dictated by the opposition starting points, because they will know where the ball will go and we will be chasing them to that spot.