Luke Hodge v Chris Judd

[Vdubs]

There's plenty of life left in Hodge, as long as there are no booze buses nearby

I hope there's a bit more left in GAJ too.
Even if we never see him in hoops again. He is such a classy player to watch.

 

[Procrastinator35]

Easily settled
GAJ was the best player of that draft.

Still easily the best draft of the lot, with 5 bona-fide super-stars in Gablett, Judd, Mitchell, Johnson, Hodge....Add in Bartell, Swan, Lake, Montagna & Hale.

It's Little wonder the Cats & Hawks reaped 7 flags from that haul.

 

[Bobby_]

Still easily the best draft of the lot, with 5 bona-fide super-stars in Gablett, Judd, Mitchell, Johnson, Hodge....Add in Bartell, Swan, Lake, Montagna & Hale.

It's Little wonder the Cats & Hawks reaped 7 flags from that haul.

Not a star but a very serviceable player.
Kind of what Vickery will end up becoming when we look back in 10 years time.

 

[Xtreme]

Not a star but a very serviceable player.
Kind of what Vickery will end up becoming when we look back in 10 years time.

Thats 10 time premiership hero Vickery!

 

[Bobby_]

Thats 10 time premiership hero Vickery!

your not snorting cocaine again are you Xtreme?

 

[Procrastinator35]

Not a star but a very serviceable player.
Kind of what Vickery will end up becoming when we look back in 10 years time.

I'll be happy/surprised to see Vickery win 1 premiership, never mind 3....The job Hale did in negating a runaway truck in Saandilands, in the 2013 Granny, can never be over-stated.

 

[Art Vandelay_]

Still easily the best draft of the lot, with 5 bona-fide super-stars in Gablett, Judd, Mitchell, Johnson, Hodge....Add in Bartell, Swan, Lake, Montagna & Hale.

It's Little wonder the Cats & Hawks reaped 7 flags from that haul.

Fast forward 24 months to the 03 draft. Who on earth would want to be a recruiter, always trying to plan ahead but can easily run into a dud draft.

 

[Procrastinator35]

Fast forward 24 months to the 03 draft. Who on earth would want to be a recruiter, always trying to plan ahead but can easily run into a dud draft.

It was then labelled the first super-draft, with Judd, Hodge & Ball all considered complete players....Our trading of Croad/McPharlin for picks 1, 20 & 36 only looks like a steal in hindsight....Fancy passing up Johnson at 16 & 20 for Ladson & Elstone?....I was shaking my head in disbelief at the time, after seeing him destroy sides a good 5-6 times that year.

 

[Roddy]

As far as the overall value given to a club is concerned, I would not take anyone above Hodge for Hawthorn from that draft or any draft since.

 

[Elite Master]

I can't believe what I'm hearing, Ablett Jnr is widely considered in the top 3 of ALL TIME, he is so far ahead of Hodge it isn't funny, and is also ahead of Judd for that matter whose best is also better than Hodge.

Hodge has been a super player don't get me wrong but its bad enough comparing him to Judd let alone arguably the GOAT in Ablett Jnr (despite his last couple of injury killing seasons).

 

[Art Vandelay_]

Exhibit A.

Ablett has in some media circles had the conversation about being as good as his father, let that sink in whilst Judd has been discussed in Gary's company. Hodge is a distant 3rd

 

[Art Vandelay_]

They are the same people that think Essendon have done no wrong and that Gary Lyon is untouchable even though he dogged his best friend for his bet friend's former partner.

The media are a bunch of clowns

Let that sink in too sunshine

The media are clowns, seem to think cyril is good.
We football fans know better #overrated

 

[Art Vandelay_]

The media are clever in their Cyril knowledge, he's certainly better than any Geelong player over the last 120 years

Exhibit B

 

[Lethality]

Exhibit A.

Ablett has in some media circles had the conversation about being as good as his father, let that sink in whilst Judd has been discussed in Gary's company. Hodge is a distant 3rd

Gary is like the midfield version of Franklin. Talented player, high volume, but in terms of value to his team, it's questionable.

There are players who are just as valuable as they are rated as players, but GAJ doesn't seem to be one of those. His style of play is possession over meterage, and overposession of handball in particular has cost his team. From Geelong if you want a player who is as valuable as he is rated, you're probably talking someone like Selwood or Enright.

 

[Bobby_]

From Geelong if you want a player who is as valuable as he is rated, you're probably talking someone like Selwood or Enright.

Ablett was virtually responsible for Geelong's 2007 premiership victory as it was he who lifted in the final quarter against Collingwood a week earlier. Also kicked the match winning goal in that same game.
Was our best player by a country mile in the 2008 grand final.
Again, when the club won another premiership in 2009, his final series was the most consistent of all our midfielders.
His very last game in Geelong colours . . . he was one of only a handful who ran until they nearly puked.

His style of play is possession over meterage, and overposession of handball in particular has cost his team

To imply he cost Geelong is one of the most ludicrous statements on this website.

Take Gary out of Gold Coast and they execute in the moments they ordinarily would not if Gary was there instead costing his teammates and coach? . . . dead set asinine opinion from Australia's finest Ablett(s) hater.

Good work Hodgepodge.

 

[Lethality]

Ablett was virtually responsible for Geelong's 2007 premiership victory as it was he who lifted in the final quarter against Collingwood a week earlier. Also kicked the match winning goal in that same game.
Was our best player by a country mile in the 2008 grand final.

I'm reminding you of the distinction between playing well and playing in a way that is beneficial to the side. IMO Gary Ablett played well in the 2008 GF but it was of no particular benefit to the team. I would probably say the same about Buddy in other games.

To imply he cost Geelong is one of the most ludicrous statements on this website.

It's a common and logical criticism, and has been made of Cotchin as well with regard to the same problem, and therefore it also applies to Ablett. If Gary played more direct and didn't overpossess with handball during his career, he becomes a better player. I've seen this style of play cost his teams many times, or at least be of no particular use to them. In summary Ablett gets a 9 or even a 10 for talent and output, but in terms of effectiveness it's maybe a 7. Franklin has the same issue.

 

[Art Vandelay_]

Judd>>Captain Fat *

Ablett in the discussion = homer spinning gif. Who cares.

Judd bitches good bloke.

 

[Lethality]

Just a few ratings to outline my position on a few players in this draft regarding the three categories which I use to rate players.

Talent is god-given ability, Output is stats, Effect is the maximal use of talent and output for the benefit of the team.

Hodge
Talent: 9
Output: 8
Effect: 10

Judd
Talent: 9
Output: 8
Effectiveness: 10

I gave Hodge and Judd effect 10 for different reasons. Judd because he was a gun at getting big clearances again and again for his side. Hodge for his versatility and ability to organise defences.

Ablett
Talent: 9
Output: 9
Effect: 7

Swan
Talent: 7
Output: 10
Effect: 7

Ablett and Swan effect I think are a 7 for different reasons. Swan lacked a defensive side for a while there, and Ablett over possessed with handballs and 1-2s.

 

[Vdubs]

I'm reminding you of the distinction between playing well and playing in a way that is beneficial to the side. IMO Gary Ablett played well in the 2008 GF but it was of no particular benefit to the team. I would probably say the same about Buddy in other games.



It's a common and logical criticism, and has been made of Cotchin as well with regard to the same problem, and therefore it also applies to Ablett. If Gary played more direct and didn't overpossess with handball during his career, he becomes a better player. I've seen this style of play cost his teams many times, or at least be of no particular use to them. In summary Ablett gets a 9 or even a 10 for talent and output, but in terms of effectiveness it's maybe a 7. Franklin has the same issue.

Just a few ratings to outline my position on a few players in this draft regarding the three categories which I use to rate players.

Talent is god-given ability, Output is stats, Effect is the maximal use of talent and output for the benefit of the team.

Hodge
Talent: 9
Output: 8
Effect: 10

Judd
Talent: 9
Output: 8
Effectiveness: 10

I gave Hodge and Judd effect 10 for different reasons. Judd because he was a gun at getting big clearances again and again for his side. Hodge for his versatility and ability to organise defences.

Ablett
Talent: 9
Output: 9
Effect: 7

Swan
Talent: 7
Output: 10
Effect: 7

Ablett and Swan effect I think are a 7 for different reasons. Swan lacked a defensive side for a while there, and Ablett over possessed with handballs and 1-2s.

We all have our biases.
But GAJ was able to, but more importantly, HAD TO, amass those possessions to be able to set up play.
His clearance work and metres gained at GC , when at his peak, was NOT ineffective. It was essential to get the ball forward, and create opportunities and bring others into the game. A bit of disrespect to say ineffective.His peers never thought they were ineffective.
You could say a similar thing about Hodge playing loose in defence, on no opponent in the 08 GF, and amassing stats.Most of his kicks hit a target, but put Hodge directly on GAJ- who would win?


GAJ
Talent- if ever a 10.....
Output- ditto--how can you not give a 10 based purely on YOUR paradigm of stats? If Swan gets a 10...
Effect- 9. How good was GC as soon as the champ was out?
There is no doubt we would have been far more awesome with GAJ in the team from 2011-2017.

 

[Vdubs]

Gary is like the midfield version of Franklin. Talented player, high volume, but in terms of value to his team, it's questionable.

There are players who are just as valuable as they are rated as players, but GAJ doesn't seem to be one of those. His style of play is possession over meterage, and overposession of handball in particular has cost his team. From Geelong if you want a player who is as valuable as he is rated, you're probably talking someone like Selwood or Enright.

Selwood would be embarrassed about discussions of a comparison, much as he is a great player and captain.
Your talk of rating and value- where do you get the rating value from? Media, umpires, coaches, AFL peers, Big Footy?
GAJ did not win AFLMVP in record consecutive years because of misplaced value.
Could you even contemplate attempting what he has done on a week to week basis against the cream of AFL players in this country?

 

[Lethality]

We all have our biases.
But GAJ was able to, but more importantly, HAD TO, amass those possessions to be able to set up play.

There was nobody else at Geelong who could win the ball? Seems unlikely.

His clearance work and metres gained at GC , when at his peak, was NOT ineffective.

Clearances rarely are ineffective, but he simply didn't win enough of them when compared to others, such as Judd for example.

GAJ
Talent- if ever a 10.....
Output- ditto
Effect- 9. How good was GC as soon as the champ was out?
There is no doubt we would have been far more awesome with GAJ in the team from 2011-2017.

Disagree, except maybe on output. A 10 would be Ablett Snr, or Lance Franklin. Outrageous abilities that just make you laugh. GAJ would be a cut below players like that on talent.

Effect I've already elaborated on. Gold Coast's form without Ablett was also down to other players missing. If you watch the 2014 game where he was injured however, the Suns overtook Collingwood after Ablett's injury, so again not suggestive of any great effect.

 

[Vdubs]

There was nobody else at Geelong who could win the ball? Seems unlikely.



Clearances rarely are ineffective, but he simply didn't win enough of them when compared to others, such as Judd for example.



Disagree, except maybe on output. A 10 would be Ablett Snr, or Lance Franklin. Outrageous abilities that just make you laugh. GAJ would be a cut below players like that on talent.

Effect I've already elaborated on. Gold Coast's form without Ablett was also down to other players missing. If you watch the 2014 game where he was injured however, the Suns overtook Collingwood after Ablett's injury, so again not suggestive of any great effect.

GAJ stood out at Geelong as much as at GC, but those comments were more applicable to GC. From 2007, he was simply peerless.To be considered in the same breath as GAS/Lethal as candidate for GOAT says more than you are able to accept.
He won clearances galore- show me the evidence that from the time he played as a pure mid, that his clearance count is below these others, like Judd. Just your selective memory, and I take into account Judd was a clearance mid several years before GAJ went there, hence the battered Judd already retired.
Big picture- GAJ had already set the tone for that avo against Pies.
And since then??
Talent wise, incomparable to all the other mids because he possessed great speed, strength, goal kicking ability, the best kicking from either foot that sets him apart, the inability to be effectively & consistently tackled or tagged, and amazing vision. A bit of the best of Judd, Diesel, Mitchell , Lethal all rollled into the one talent.

 

[Lethality]

GAJ stood out at Geelong as much as at GC, but those comments were more applicable to GC. From 2007, he was simply peerless.To be considered in the same breath as GAS/Lethal as candidate for GOAT says more than you are able to accept.

He's not considered in the same breath, even the recent Herald Sun poll showed Leigh Matthews as a clear No.1. He might be seen in the same light as his father though.

He won clearances galore- show me the evidence that from the time he played as a pure mid, that his clearance count is below these others, like Judd.

There's no need to even be selective, since most players start off slow and peak at the age of 24-30, as Ablett did.

However, even if you did handpick clearance averages from his best years, he averages 6 clearances a game, and there are players with higher career averages than that, without selecting from their best seasons. Even Chris Judd's career clearance average is within .3 of your selected Ablett years. Brett Ratten's career clearance numbers are higher, as are Patrick Cripps', compared to Ablett's selective years.

Talent wise, incomparable to all the other mids because he possessed great speed, strength, goal kicking ability, the best kicking from either foot that sets him apart, the inability to be effectively & consistently tackled or tagged, and amazing vision. A bit of the best of Judd, Diesel, Mitchell , Lethal all rollled into the one talent.

Not really, he didn't have the overhead ability or physicality of a Leigh Matthews, for example. Matthews was a great mark. He did have elements of some of the others, but not at the same level, for example good acceleration, but not the acceleration of Judd, not the vision of Williams, and so forth. Ablett is no more a complete midfielder than Dangerfield is. Danger isn't a good a kick, Ablett isn't as good a mark.

 

[RAPPA]

Hodge is only ever discussed because he was captain of a highly successful aide. In terms of individual effect on the game, ablett and Judd absolutely trounce him.

Gun player and a champion captain, but miles apart Albert and Judd.

If Judd consistently played as he did at west coast, the gap between he and GAJ may well be negligible. But based on how it has all panned out, GAJ at the top, Judd a step behind, and hodge well behind.

 

[nickcat0]

As a player, Judd is (was) head and shoulders above Hodge; so I voted for him ........... As captain of a successful team, you could give Hodge some bonus points when it comes to the intangibles, but overall he'd still be inferior to Judd.