Analysis Midfield - Crowd Source A Solution

[Rory Walkerfield]

ok, there was a good article on news.com.au where the quadrella(?!?) for the Kentucky derby was predicted by a group of scientists that crowd sourced tips from a group of avid punters.

So collectively us group of die hard fans should be able to crowd source a solution to our midfield woes.

Here are the midfield issues as I see them:
1. No spread from the contest resulting in hack possessions rather than effective use of outside runners. Also explains (doesn't forgive) some of the poor form of smith and Seedsman
2. Lack of defensive pressure from the midfield group
3. Mids getting drawn into the contest leaving opposition link players open
4. Others? Suggestions?

Reasons for these issues:
A. Lack of pace around the ball - inability to create a metre of space. [edit: also means we can't shut down the opposition if they get a metre]
B. Inexperience around the ball, particularly the Crouch brothers
C. Too many see ball, get ball players at the contest for us resulting in lack of accountability (looking at Thommo and Crouch brothers here)
D. Others? Suggestions?

Solutions:
i. More speed inserted at the contest (ie need atleast one of Betts, Cameron, Smith, Seed, Milera inside including at every centre bounce). Also try to limit to one of Thommo, B Crouch and M Crouch at the clearance and never all three
ii. Ensure we have accountable players at the contest ie Sloane (who else? Oh s**t!)
iii. Try to ensure that atleast two out of the three mids at any contest are our more experienced players (including Thommo, Sloane, smith, betts and douggie if he doesn't get dropped)
iv. Others? Suggestions?

I just think about the first few minutes of last night when betts was up around the contest. We actually looked dangerous in the contest. Then he didn't go near the middle for the rest of the night. Part of the reason Cameron was so good was that he spent a bit of time starting off the HBF and hitting the contest. More of this please. And smith and Seedsman can do this too.

Any other thoughts? Comments?

Off the mark, or nail on the head?

 

[hugecannon]

We could actually try and rotate some different people through the midfield especially the centre square. We are far too one dimensional and when we lose in there we tend to get smashed and smashed badly. Do we lose anything by throwing Cameron in the centre for a burst, or Laird when he comes back, or Lynch, or even McGovern? What we're doing right now isn't working consistently but we're not making any adjustments. Did anyone else notice if we had anybody besides Thompson, Sloane, Douglas and the Crouch's in the middle last night?

 

[Deaneus!]

Based on the inane suggestions i heard from the fossils in the crowd around me last night, this is the worst idea of all time.

Let's do it.

Here are the midfield issues as I see them:
1. Lack of defensive pressure from the midfield group - they ran faster through the banner last night, disgusting
2. No spread from the contest resulting in hack possessions rather than effective use of outside runners. See 1
3. Mids getting drawn into the contest leaving opposition link players open - we did this well early in the season, what happened?
4. Others? Suggestions? Ruck - where are we at with people other than Jacobs? Doc Clarke, you've had your chance. See other thread.

Reasons for these issues:
A. Lack of pace around the ball - inability to create a metre of space Yes yes yes
B. Inexperience around the ball, particularly the Crouch brothers
C. Too many see ball, get ball players at the contest for us resulting in lack of accountability (looking at Thommo and Crouch brothers here) yes, they're like the three ******* stooges. perhaps they've not met each other?


Solutions:
i. More speed inserted at the contest (ie need atleast one of Betts, Cameron, Smith, Seed, Milera inside including at every centre bounce). Also try to limit to one of Thommo, B Crouch and M Crouch at the clearance and never all three
ii. Ensure we have accountable players at the contest ie Sloane (who else? Oh s**t!)
iii. Try to ensure that atleast two out of the three mids at any contest are our more experienced players (including Thommo, Sloane, smith, betts and douggie if he doesn't get dropped)
iv. Others? Suggestions?

 

[mattymac]

We 100% need to poach a smart midfielder from somewhere. Our midfield has a very low football IQ. Sloane needs a partner in crime. He doesn't need to be a clearance king. He needs to have some speed and be smart and hard working and understand that his job isn't finished once he hacks it out of a stoppage.

We need to raise the IQ and defensive effort of our midfield. We need smart hard working role models for the Crouch boys and the next gen to learn from.

Literally the only answers I can see are

1. a new midfield coach who pays attention to defense, and

2. poaching a smart midfielder from somewhere who is ready to go.

If we try to fix this problem from within it will take years to get our midfield up to scratch

 

[TexanKnights]

We 100% need to poach a smart midfielder from somewhere. Our midfield has a very low football IQ. Sloane needs a partner in crime. He doesn't need to be a clearance king. He needs to have some speed and be smart and hard working and understand that his job isn't finished once he hacks it out of a stoppage.

We need to raise the IQ and defensive effort of our midfield. We need smart hard working role models for the Crouch boys and the next gen to learn from.

Literally the only answers I can see are

1. a new midfield coach who pays attention to defense, and

2. poaching a smart midfielder from somewhere who is ready to go.

If we try to fix this problem from within it will take years to get our midfield up to scratch

This x 100

 

[TheLeftFist8]

We could actually try and rotate some different people through the midfield especially the centre square. We are far too one dimensional and when we lose in there we tend to get smashed and smashed badly. Do we lose anything by throwing Cameron in the centre for a burst, or Laird when he comes back, or Lynch, or even McGovern? What we're doing right now isn't working consistently but we're not making any adjustments. Did anyone else notice if we had anybody besides Thompson, Sloane, Douglas and the Crouch's in the middle last night?

The problem is Thompson and the Crouch boys are one-dimensional. Most of our other options can legitimately play more than one role.

 

[Stiffy_18]

We 100% need to poach a smart midfielder from somewhere. Our midfield has a very low football IQ. Sloane needs a partner in crime. He doesn't need to be a clearance king. He needs to have some speed and be smart and hard working and understand that his job isn't finished once he hacks it out of a stoppage.

We need to raise the IQ and defensive effort of our midfield. We need smart hard working role models for the Crouch boys and the next gen to learn from.

Literally the only answers I can see are

1. a new midfield coach who pays attention to defense, and

2. poaching a smart midfielder from somewhere who is ready to go.

If we try to fix this problem from within it will take years to get our midfield up to scratch

We are obviously going with a mix of option 2 and 3. We had strong interest in Heppell before he re-signed with the Bombers and we have genuine interest in Neale. We are not going to get a Dangerfield like raid and get a superstar but it will be a combination of young and experienced midfielder in certain age group (hence interest in Heppell and Neale).

Oh and the player absolutely has to be a good clearance player given that Thompson will likely hang up the boots at the end of the season.

 

[Shazwozler]

I think we might need to change up more than the the player's I think Camporeale need to go. It's not always the player's fault. There trained to play a certain way but that doesn't mean it's the right way. It's amazing what a new coach can do to get a team back to form.

 

[TGFC]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wisdom_of_Crowds

ask enough people and we will get the right answer

 

[The Sloane Ranger]

I think we might need to change up more than the the player's I think Camporeale need to go. It's not always the player's fault. There trained to play a certain way but that doesn't mean it's the right way. It's amazing what a new coach can do to get a team back to form.

The club signed Campo on a new deal just prior to Pyke's appointment so unless Pyke forces a change and the club is willing to pay out Campo's contract I just can't see it happening

 

[GreyCrow]

Here are the midfield issues as I see them:
1. No spread from the contest resulting in hack possessions rather than effective use of outside runners. Also explains (doesn't forgive) some of the poor form of smith and Seedsman

This is an interesting one. I understand the thinking of wanting to move the ball down the corridor as much as possible , but every now and then having a big tap or handball out to the wings is a great tactic when everyone is on the same page. Shaun Rehn was a great one for the big boof deep .

 

[kulak]

The problem is personnel.

Talent-wise, we have precisely 1 elite midfielder in Sloane.

Matt Crouch and Scott Thompson are our 2nd and 3rd best contested possession winners. They are good triers, and Scott Thompson still has his moments, but if you line them up against the 2nd and 3rd best midfielders at any genuine contender it's advantage to our opposition.

Players 4-6 by contested possession are Lyons, B Crouch and Douglas. Enough said.

Physically we are smaller and shorter compared to the genuine contenders.

Here's the top 5 teams by clearance differential. Then for those teams, filtering to players who played 4+ games, excluding ruckmen, including top 6 contested possession winners
1. Western Bulldogs (avg height 185 cm, avg weight 81.8 kg)
2. GWS (184 cm, 82.5 kg)
3. Melbourne (182 cm, 84.3 kg)
4. Geelong (188 cm, 88.2 kg)
5. Sydney (182 cm, 81.8 kg)
12. Adelaide (183 cm, 82.6 kg)

OK, Sydney are the only team we are comparable against. Lined up against the others, it isn't a big difference, but it is a difference. BTW the height isn't just about marking, it is also about wingspan.

Summing up, we have less talent, and we are smaller. This is not a winning combination.

In the short term, all Don Pyke can do is paper over the cracks by minimising the extent to which winning midfield contests influences the outcome. Our gameplan of getting back defensively, then bypassing the midfield with precision kicking to players streaming forward, is a great way of doing this.

Hawthorn have shown over the last few years that you do not need the best contest-winning midfield to win the premiership. It is enough if you can come close to breaking even, if you are better in other ways. Realistically this is our only likely path to contending in the near future.

We just need to get close to breaking even with the best midfields, like we did against the Swans, rather than getting slaughtered by them like we did against the Bulldogs and Cats.

To do that we need to persist with the gameplan, and we need to dial the defensive pressure back up to the level of the Swans match.

I still cannot see it happening consistently this season, but if the Crouch boys continue to improve, Milera becomes a player, and Sloane doesn't follow Davis, Gunston, Tippet and Dangerfield out the door, then I suppose it can happen in a future season.

In the medium term, it would help if we can recruit a powerful contest-winning midfielder. Not naming names, but bringing in a 176 cm 79 kg midget to replace 184 cm 86 kg Thompson will only exacerbate our size problem. There aren't any obvious targets on the free agents list or which otherwise seem available. In any case we are neither a Destination City nor a Destination Team.

All we can do is throw silly money at a targeted young player, like Hopper (186 cm) or Steele (187 cm) at GWS. Someone tall, strong, who wins contests, and whose current club won't or can't get in the same ball park. Perhaps someone out of the Suns or Brisbane who is looking for a fresh start. Has to be the right player though.

At the end of the day, I think we need to accept that our midfield is always going to struggle this year against the best opposition. Crouch brothers need to continue to get opportunities and improve. Milera needs to continue to play. Rory Atkins and Charlie Cameron show good signs. Best case is that we get a couple more A graders out of that group, and along with Sloane, and a good defence, attack, and game-style - that can be enough to take us deep into finals. But not this year.

 

[SydCrow]

It would also help if Sauce could get his hand on it first. For mine we do lack speed, not just leg speed by overall quick agility. That's why Eddie makes a difference, he reacts quicker than most. Shame we can't play him everywhere.

Given how we train, I'm not sure how easy it is to just throw players into the mids. There is a lot to learn about stoppage play etc. And players need to play together to get used to working together.

I am OK with just breaking even and trying to win it on the outside with decent disposal and a more effective forward line. I also want to see what Hampton offers in the midfield.

 

[Geoffa32]

I want to see more of Charlie Cameron in the middle.

Long term (ie 2017+) I see our midield rotations being.

Sloane, Atkins, B Crouch, M Crouch, Cameron, Menzel, Greenwood (hoping), Milera. Would be nice to add Lachie Neale to that group.

Quite a diverse bunch. Personally think we need patience and good coaching to get to the level of output Geelong have. Caddy, Duncan and Guthrie are all 23/24 and starting to hit their peak year. Add Danger and Selwood with the experience of Bartel helping out and you have the best midfield group in the comp.


We basically need patience and good coaching to see our mids improve.

 

[azza77]

The club signed Campo on a new deal just prior to Pyke's appointment so unless Pyke forces a change and the club is willing to pay out Campo's contract I just can't see it happening

God dammit.

 

[SydCrow]

A month ago we beat a side containing Parker, Kennedy, Hannebury, Jack etc. Campo can only work with the personnel he has.

 

[Crowbots are dead]

ok, there was a good article on news.com.au where the quadrella(?!?) for the Kentucky derby was predicted by a group of scientists that crowd sourced tips from a group of avid punters.

So collectively us group of die hard fans should be able to crowd source a solution to our midfield woes.

Here are the midfield issues as I see them:
1. No spread from the contest resulting in hack possessions rather than effective use of outside runners. Also explains (doesn't forgive) some of the poor form of smith and Seedsman
2. Lack of defensive pressure from the midfield group
3. Mids getting drawn into the contest leaving opposition link players open
4. Others? Suggestions?

Reasons for these issues:
A. Lack of pace around the ball - inability to create a metre of space. [edit: also means we can't shut down the opposition if they get a metre]
B. Inexperience around the ball, particularly the Crouch brothers
C. Too many see ball, get ball players at the contest for us resulting in lack of accountability (looking at Thommo and Crouch brothers here)
D. Others? Suggestions?

Solutions:
i. More speed inserted at the contest (ie need atleast one of Betts, Cameron, Smith, Seed, Milera inside including at every centre bounce). Also try to limit to one of Thommo, B Crouch and M Crouch at the clearance and never all three
ii. Ensure we have accountable players at the contest ie Sloane (who else? Oh s**t!)
iii. Try to ensure that atleast two out of the three mids at any contest are our more experienced players (including Thommo, Sloane, smith, betts and douggie if he doesn't get dropped)
iv. Others? Suggestions?

I just think about the first few minutes of last night when betts was up around the contest. We actually looked dangerous in the contest. Then he didn't go near the middle for the rest of the night. Part of the reason Cameron was so good was that he spent a bit of time starting off the HBF and hitting the contest. More of this please. And smith and Seedsman can do this too.

Any other thoughts? Comments?

Off the mark, or nail on the head?

Great analysis. I'd add that we don't bat deep enough in our midfield. Best teams rotate more through theirs