Mongrel - who has it who doesn't ? Does it Matter?

[katmanblue]

interesting observation

I think he is perfectly capable of playing as a resting forward - maybe even dragging a tagger with him into an advantageous spot. Cripps is a good mark and his kicking ( sans 20 meter brain fart miss aside) has improved. Give him some time trying this - better than him trying to remodel himself into a running mid - he can also provide a chop out relief third ruck if Teague want to mix things up - plenty of ways to use a talented player.

Just gotta have him and Kennedy rotating between the goalsquare and centre square.

70% midfield 20% forward 10% bench - Cripps
60% forward 20% midfield 20% bench - Kennedy

 

[Bostonian]

JSOS and Cottrell are the only one outwardly that give off that true mongrel vibe.

Then there's players who don't mind a bit of argy bargy (not soft but not mongrel) either then there's the bruise free footballers.

 

[JustaBattler]

Just gotta have him and Kennedy rotating between the goalsquare and centre square.

70% midfield 20% forward 10% bench - Cripps
60% forward 20% midfield 20% bench - Kennedy

Problem is that neither is a good chaser so forward line needs to have enough defensive options to cover for them - Eddie/Murph/Levi/Harry are already 4 liabilities as fr as defensive presur in forward line goes- Port game illustrated that I thought - in order for the resting on baller - you need a different game style - if Teague wishes to perservere with the lock it in stuf fhe has to have more runners who tackle - locking it in..

I liek teh way Port play tbh - they arent the run and gun handball through the middle side that Doggies are - the use their big fellas the right way and polay teh game on their terms...our game should be deeloped more along Port lines than Richmond or Doggies or Sydney...

 

[FitzroyBlueBagger]

Great thread JAB, I’m a little late to the party in here and ODN has beat me to it but for me i also see mongrel in DeKoning have since i started watching him early days at the club, once he gets back up and running and the games under his belt, we’ll start to see that come out of him... I’ve been a massive rap of this kid from early days...

 

[Yubby]

I'd say it's coachable to a degree. Not even coachable per-se, but driven by culture.

You might naturally be 60 on a 0-100 scale of aggro, but in a team where it's really pushed and encouraged you could probably jump up to 75 out of 100. Conversely if your team is a bunch of nice guys, you'd probably drop a bit to 45/100 if that makes sense.

It certainly looks like Williamson has dropped significantly since his first year.


My 0-100 aggro scale is copyrighted and patented so no one steal it, thanks.

I agree that there's probably a degree of natural flex that each player has up or down each game from their natural starting point. Then there is the environment and expectations impact that really determines how much they deliberately try to flex up so that each player flexs to their ceiling each week.

You look at the Tigers and they probably have very little variability as the environment demands each person reach their ceiling each week whereas with us, it seems like we don't even care about it and would rather focus on other things and because of this we see great variability and low performance in this space.

 

[Zuribagger]

Has anyone else had the impression that when sps gets pi$sed off because eg someone hits him or does some push and shove with him, he then starts playing more aggressively and better?

 

[JustaBattler]

Great thread JAB, I’m a little late to the party in here and ODN has beat me to it but for me i also see mongrel in DeKoning have since i started watching him early days at the club, once he gets back up and running and the games under his belt, we’ll start to see that come out of him... I’ve been a massive rap of this kid from early days...

It is an old thread I started because I've been on about this basic stuff since I started posting - I guess I look at the game the way a rugby bloke looks at the basics - because there is ahugecommonality between all contact sports- what Arr0w calls it winning the contested game -I think is an outcome in my books - you have to have the basic requirements of winning the contested game on field to win the contested game...

the reason Carlton is now going through the one week goodish one week baddish play is the side is stacked with too many inconsistent players - that get found out by better opposition or systems.

Richmond hunt in packs each way - and the only way to beat that is to do similar as far as that goes - but there are alternative ways to combat Richmomnd if you cant match their run....

Port stack HBF and wings with gut runners - feeding off their imporesive midfield and talls - I loved the way they just did away with mucking around from their kickins by just smashing a big bomb to a congested and stacked cluster to the right of the goal square- made a contest there and had HBF and wings streaming through for recieve or defensive tackling if Carlton won the contest there by some accident...very clever - makes the trasnisition from defensive fity to midfield and contest easy - they are playing to tehir strengths and also eliminating the forward press pressure gme teams to try employ to hem them in - best strategic coaching move I've seen in years.

At the end of the day through - you need a team of players who are going to committ and execute on teh basics run and tackle are the foundations - without that you are just open to all sorts of pressure. Skill is a bonus and you dont need too many ball users if you keep things simple. Trying to thread teh needle or play pretty football or bomb it in to a couple of talls - thats nothing football against teh better drilled sides.

 

[Gethelred]

Curious to know if people think this is coachable or if you either have it naturally or you don't?

I certainly think you can reinforce the importance of intangible qualities like mongrel, hardness, intensity, work rate, chasing, blocking, determination all through visual examples. Then change expectations by demanding this behaviour which will in turn change performance.

Knowing whether you've delivered from the viewing test you've performed rather than through metrics and KPIs. Sometimes there aren't metrics for these types of intangibles and so they can be forgotten and lost but i'd love to see Teague say to the players to forget metrics and play to these intangibles and when we watch the tape together after the game, you won't need anyone to tell if you've delivered or not as it's pretty obvious.

Clarkson clearly does.

Compare Ryan Burton in a Hawthorn jumper and in a Port jumper. In his first season, he went the bump a fair bit, sought to stick players into the deck with his tackling. In a Port jumper, he's still young for a KPP, but he's not smashing into packs or players, and he's more just playing his role than actively mongrel.

 

[Love the Drake]

Let’s even scale it down to who plays with physicality and vigour. Shouldn’t be that hard...ummmm..

Jones
Pittonet
Ed Curnow
Cripps
Silvagni
Fogarty
Williams
Cottrell

INJURED
Newman
TDK
Martin

Unfortunately that’s it. There’s no mongrel. No one who has the opposition thinking twice.

We are a nice team. Introverted and conservative.

 

[I AM CARLTON]

We don't have it and yeah it matters.

 

[katmanblue]

Let’s even scale it down to who plays with physicality and vigour. Shouldn’t be that hard...ummmm..

Jones
Pittonet
Ed Curnow
Cripps
Silvagni
Fogarty
Williams
Cottrell

INJURED
Newman
TDK
Martin

Unfortunately that’s it. There’s no mongrel. No one who has the opposition thinking twice.

We are a nice team. Introverted and conservative.

McGovern too

 

[katmanblue]

Remember when we lauding the "no dickheads" policy?

What I wouldn't give for some dickheads and campaigners on the team.

 

[thylacine60]

can't see dickheads helping our cause much..........

 

[Blueballs38]

Don't think it can be laid at the feet of Murphy at all.

The issue is one that has arisen from the manner in which we approached the rebuild. Bolton was all about "no ceiling" for the players, they came in with a clean slate and they'd be selected based on effort and performance, not draft position.

But the reality was that, because we culled the list so heavily, we did end up gifting a lot of games to a lot of kids. We accepted losses, and big ones, because there were "green shoots". It could have paid off, if we'd accelerated quickly, but we didn't. We stagnated, we treaded water, we kept waiting and waiting for the payoff. And in the meantime, we turned a bunch of quality young kids into players for whom winning wasn't a KPI, wasn't a goal, it was a nice bonus every now and then but if we didn't get it we weren't too worried.

So we need to make changes to our training methods, KPIs and selection processes that reward the guys for whom winning (everything - the ball, the contest, the game) is a non-negotiable, and develops/encourages it in those for whom it isn't. And anyone between here and the end of the season who can't find that inside themselves should be shown the door.

Just to make a point I wasn’t laying it at murpy’s feet more that the attitude of the list seems to be the same as his attitude the last couple of years. Murphy has been an awesome player for the club but that shoulder injury against * screwed him royally .... since then he has played like this current list does .... like pussies

 

[SkyhorseTamer]

Introverted and conservative.

Can we dispel this myth that introverts are all nice. All the hardest, meanest bastards that everyone wanted on their team I played with and against were introverts. Being introverted has nothing to do with mongrel. Extroverts are obviously more suited to leadership etc but mongrel is not related to whether you talk a lot and like being the centre of attention or prefer going about your business. As a matter of fact all the idiots and pretenders I played with who went to water whenever there was pressure were extroverts. Loud mouths who got found out every time.

Its almost always the quiet bugger that hurts the most and hits the hardest.

We are 100% missing that Bruce doull type, the guys love him for his effort and passion as he just murders his opponent every week no matter what. Doull was no extrovert... We need killer instinct and internal drive to succeed.

 

[JustaBattler]

Can we dispel this myth that introverts are all nice. All the hardest, meanest bastards that everyone wanted on their team I played with and against were introverts. Being introverted has nothing to do with mongrel. Extroverts are obviously more suited to leadership etc but mongrel is not related to whether you talk a lot and like being the centre of attention or prefer going about your business. As a matter of fact all the idiots and pretenders I played with who went to water whenever there was pressure were extroverts. Loud mouths who got found out every time.

Its almost always the quiet bugger that hurts the most and hits the hardest.

We are 100% missing that Bruce doull type, the guys love him for his effort and passion as he just murders his opponent every week no matter what. Doull was no extrovert... We need killer instinct and internal drive to succeed.

100% my experience as well.
Words dont mean anything on the footy field.

 

[Kruezing]

I believe we need to bring in a consultant in this area ... I nominate the dominator ... if a player can pass his test ... then maybe I’ll be convinced ...

 

[norway blue]

I believe we need to bring in a consultant in this area ... I nominate the dominator ... if a player can pass his test ... then maybe I’ll be convinced ...

And Wayne Harmed .


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[ITCHY EYEBALLS]

I occasionally spot Fraser "Mad Dog" Brown on my morning Tan walks and we have no one close to that level of mongrel in our side right now. What I'd give to let the likes of Browny and Rhys have at our current crop.

or Dom, Hickmott, Dean, Diesel, Jimmy Buckley, Wiggins, Francina, Scotland, Fev, etc etc

 

[norway blue]

or Dom, Hickmott, Dean, Diesel, Jimmy Buckley, Wiggins, Francina, Scotland, Fev, etc etc

Yeah why do coaches have to uni and spread sheet .


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[CJMB]

I should probably also mention Pittonet who since being coached by Kreuzer seems to have become more physical, trying to barrel through players at stoppages like the Tractor did.

It's not exactly mongrel but there is some intent there.

As much as I can't wait for the athleticism of De Koning to add value to our side, I can't see him having mongrel.

Didn’t old mate System absolutely bury Pitto in a tackle in the preseason and knock him out?

 

[JustaBattler]

Yeah why do coaches have to uni and spread sheet .


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Being educated doesn't mean you lack mongrel - I'll give you the tip

 

[norway blue]

Not denying that jab . Blue collar


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[DangerousD]

Just gotta have him and Kennedy rotating between the goalsquare and centre square.

70% midfield 20% forward 10% bench - Cripps
60% forward 20% midfield 20% bench - Kennedy

I have been thinking similar to this regarding Kennedy, he’s a strong overhead mark, he’s strong, good at stoppages and can kick a goal, I see him as having better output than Gov.
What I don’t understand is, if you have a guy, who clearly can’t keep up with the mids and has shown good signs up forward, why you would bring him in to the first team and play him on the wing and try force him in to the midfield.

Kennedy should be playing this role in the 2nds, he should be training this role every week.

 

[TENACIOUS]

Mongrel starts with having the basic athletic ability to run with your direct opponent as a bare minimum

I liked this
Wife called me a mongrel, but I said "hey I'm too unfit to run" and showed her this..

So now she just calls me a DC