Game Day NAB Wk 1 Crows Vs Saints Vs Power

[StuPendus]

I didn't say he didn't end up leaning back.

But sport in general is littered with these conventional coaching phrases that get passed down through the ages and then get debunked when the analysis goes up a notch and they start actually looking closely at what the best craftsmen do.

In cricket you have 'get back and across' to play the pull shot - Ponting never did. Best puller of a cricket ball going around.




'Foot to the pitch of the ball' and 'bat and pad close together' are another two beauties. Tendulkar managed without them.




I'd be really interested to do one of the coaching courses to find out what the latest goal kicking technique training involves. I coach in the amateurs but that is more about making phone calls to round up players than actual football coaching.

Macca touched on it but I'd be surprised if the ball drop (and the actions leading up to it) wasn't the crucial factor when determining whether a kick is successful or not. The first domino, so to speak.

Don’t wish to derail the thread but have to speak up about Punter’s technique. Carl, yes he was a brilliant puller on the front foot, but if he had both techniques of front and back foot, he would have been able to hook as well. One thing he couldn’t do. Also using his back foot probably would have alleviated his constant LBW or bowled in his latter years.

So if a footballer has more than one string to their bow, the better they are, yes? Surely that’s what a development and line coach should be delivering to their underlings.

 

[Geoffa32]

Without wanting to sound too simplistic, I think you play your best 22. If that includes Riley/Lyons at the expense of Crouch then so be it. There are no guarantees Crouch will end up a better player and there should be no free pass based on potential.

Pig dog is a damned good player, unlucky not to have played more imo. Lyons has done very little wrong either. Provided they maintain good form they both deserve a decent crack after serving long apprenticeships.

If we dont play our best 22 Sando may get suspended, but the club will not have tanked..............

 

[Mismatched]

I'm no biomechanics expert but this sounds like armchair analysis.

Like the hack golfer who lays the blame for every bad shot on "I didn't keep my head down." In reality the fault lies earlier in the swing and the head lifting is a result, not the cause of the error.

But I'm not a biomechanist. Has anyone done an afl level 3 coaching course and done stuff on the biomechanics of the kicking action?

I haven't done a level 3 coaching course, but I do have a degree in Sports Science having done a research project into the Biomechanics of kicking and I also did a research project into the psychology of "choking" or the "yips" when performing a skill such as set shot, or a putt (Golf), serve (tennis), free-throw (baskett-ball), simple skills that elite athletes should be able to perform with ease, but don't.

Personally I think saying, "all he's got to do is X..." is a very simplistic way to approach what is quite a complex problem. If you're looking at perfect technique then keeping your head over the ball is probably correct, in a perfect world with robots this is what you'd teach them. A common phrase from coaches is "90% of footy is played above the shoulders" and I think this is even more the case with set-shots, it is a simple skill that even with poor technique one should still be able to execute.

Lining up for goal is a very personalised aspect of the game and it is certainly not a "one size fits all" approach when a guy is having trouble. There has been a number of players with horrible approaches/techniques that have extraordinary accuracy/results (See Josh Kennedy/Trent Hentschel), or you can watch guys with perfect techniques fail time and time again.

Personally I think the biggest problem guys have with kicking these easy shots is that they don't actually practice them enough. If you watch players at training, they practice shots on the run during drills, then when they practice set shots, they'll go out to distances 40m+ or stupid angles and have shots. How often to they practice 20-30m out directly in front? How often do they practice with a man on the mark? Just because something is "easy" doesn't mean we shouldn't practice and perfect it.

Jenkins may be leaning back too much, but we need to ask why he is leaning back? Traditionally he's been an accurate shot on goal, if he iss leaning back on his kicks more than usual then maybe that's worth highlighting, but then perhaps he just needs to go back to training, get a team-mate or whatever to stand the mark and kick 50 goals from 20-30m out, ensuring he follows the same routine each time, just as he would if he was 45m out on the boundary line.

I think it's very easy to get hung up focusing on a certain part of the technique, ie keeping your head over the ball, running in a straight line, using your opposite arm to balance properly etc. but the problem is, is that this may not feel natural to the player, it may distract him from the skill itself and suddenly he's in more trouble than he already was. I think what is really required is a more professional approach to the skill, focusing on the many aspects of the skill as a whole.

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

Really good post, thanks for taking the time.

The practice volume is an intetesting one. For years we've seen the sports scientist limit the number of kicks per week because it leafs to fatigue, stress, injury.

What emerged recently though is that you only need to limit the volume of kicking to allow for the copious amount of running.

The payoff is skills for fitness.

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

Don’t wish to derail the thread but have to speak up about Punter’s technique. Carl, yes he was a brilliant puller on the front foot, but if he had both techniques of front and back foot, he would have been able to hook as well. One thing he couldn’t do. Also using his back foot probably would have alleviated his constant LBW or bowled in his latter years.

So if a footballer has more than one string to their bow, the better they are, yes? Surely that’s what a development and line coach should be delivering to their underlings.

No sorry, that's ridiculous. Think logically about what you're saying:
Our best batsman since Bradman should have been better.

Come on.

 

[azza77]

No sorry, that's ridiculous. Think logically about what you're saying:
Our best batsman since Bradman should have been better.

Come on.

Well if you look at it a bit differently, the best player in the game (debatably) Lance Franklin could be better if he knew how to kick straight on set shots.

 

[Geoffa32]

I haven't done a level 3 coaching course, but I do have a degree in Sports Science having done a research project into the Biomechanics of kicking and I also did a research project into the psychology of "choking" or the "yips" when performing a skill such as set shot, or a putt (Golf), serve (tennis), free-throw (baskett-ball), simple skills that elite athletes should be able to perform with ease, but don't.

Personally I think saying, "all he's got to do is X..." is a very simplistic way to approach what is quite a complex problem. If you're looking at perfect technique then keeping your head over the ball is probably correct, in a perfect world with robots this is what you'd teach them. A common phrase from coaches is "90% of footy is played above the shoulders" and I think this is even more the case with set-shots, it is a simple skill that even with poor technique one should still be able to execute.

Lining up for goal is a very personalised aspect of the game and it is certainly not a "one size fits all" approach when a guy is having trouble. There has been a number of players with horrible approaches/techniques that have extraordinary accuracy/results (See Josh Kennedy/Trent Hentschel), or you can watch guys with perfect techniques fail time and time again.

Personally I think the biggest problem guys have with kicking these easy shots is that they don't actually practice them enough. If you watch players at training, they practice shots on the run during drills, then when they practice set shots, they'll go out to distances 40m+ or stupid angles and have shots. How often to they practice 20-30m out directly in front? How often do they practice with a man on the mark? Just because something is "easy" doesn't mean we shouldn't practice and perfect it.

Jenkins may be leaning back too much, but we need to ask why he is leaning back? Traditionally he's been an accurate shot on goal, if he iss leaning back on his kicks more than usual then maybe that's worth highlighting, but then perhaps he just needs to go back to training, get a team-mate or whatever to stand the mark and kick 50 goals from 20-30m out, ensuring he follows the same routine each time, just as he would if he was 45m out on the boundary line.

I think it's very easy to get hung up focusing on a certain part of the technique, ie keeping your head over the ball, running in a straight line, using your opposite arm to balance properly etc. but the problem is, is that this may not feel natural to the player, it may distract him from the skill itself and suddenly he's in more trouble than he already was. I think what is really required is a more professional approach to the skill, focusing on the many aspects of the skill as a whole.

Not an expert but I personally think he was just buggered. He did a lot of running in 39 degree heat, he was one guy who busted his ass, over the two games and fatigue tends to interfere with a routine. He is generally a good kick, not concerned at this stage.

 

[The Sloane Ranger]

We didn't bend over backwards to get Crouch for him to bide his time in the SANFL.

He did well in the SANFL last year, including finals. He will gain nothing by playing there again. He needs to do an apprenticeship alongside Thommo and learn off him.

If we're struggling to find spots for Lyons, Riley, Crouch... then just drop Douglas.

Agree that Crouch needs to earn the right however I also agree that his best apprenticeship is at afl level not sanfl level

 

[Sanders]

Did we tank when drafted Brad Crouch instead of Sam Gibson?

Gibson would have helped give us a greater chance to win games in 2012 than Crouch.

Did we do less than 100% to win games in 2012 as a result?

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

Well if you look at it a bit differently, the best player in the game (debatably) Lance Franklin could be better if he knew how to kick straight on set shots.

You could change his game, and it would do one of three things:
- make him better
- have no impact
- make him worse

Given that 99.9% of footballers of all time are worse than him, I reckon your chances of making him even better are less than zero.

Most (all) of the goals he does kick are hook foots. And we're saying take those away...


Goal kicking is a perfect one. Conventional coaching wisdom tells you that you should run in straight towards the target. Yet Buddy is the best forward in the game. Watch Darren Jarman kick - another who hooked it, though not to Buddy's extreme.

 

[ftmch]

You could change his game, and it would do one of three things:
- make him better
- have no impact
- make him worse

Given that 99.9% of footballers of all time are worse than him, I reckon your chances of making him even better are less than zero.

How good he is as a footballer though is not measured in who's worse than him / who he's better than. It's how many goals he kicks from his opportunities (among other things). Correct his kicking action and improve his conversion rate by 5-10%, and he's still better than 99.9% of players before him, but a better footballer also.

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

I'm trying to point out the likelihood of making him a better player. If he's in the top 0.01% now... we think we can move him into the top 0.005%?

Don't you think he'd be more likely to go the other way, you know... cos 99.99% > 0.01%

 

[Sanders]

I'm trying to point out the likelihood of making him a better player. If he's in the top 0.01% now... we think we can move him into the top 0.005%?

Don't you think he'd be more likely to go the other way, you know... cos 99.99% > 0.01%

Messing with people's technique often has negative effects in golf or tennis for example

 

[ftmch]

I'm trying to point out the likelihood of making him a better player. If he's in the top 0.01% now... we think we can move him into the top 0.005%?

Don't you think he'd be more likely to go the other way, you know... cos 99.99% > 0.01%

Who cares which way it goes?

I'm pretty sure the Hawks would cop him kicking an extra 10-15 goals a season by improving his set shot kicking action, and risk the possibility of him dropping a couple of points in the overall "awesomest player to have played the game ever" scale.

Him being a better player (or worse) has nothing to do with other players - past or present.

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

Who cares which way it goes?

I'm pretty sure the Hawks would cop him kicking an extra 10-15 goals a season by improving his set shot kicking action, and risk the possibility of him dropping a couple of points in the overall "awesomest player to have played the game ever" scale.

Him being a better player (or worse) has nothing to do with other players - past or present.

Sheesh.

Do I have to spell out every single word?

I'm saying that changing his kicking action is more likely to make him kick worse than it is to make him kick better.


Edit - and how on earth do you figure that him kicking "an extra 10-15 goals a season" would make him go down in people's reckoning?

 

[ftmch]

Sheesh.

Do I have to spell out every single word?

I'm saying that changing his kicking action is more likely to make him kick worse than it is to make him kick better.


Edit - and how on earth do you figure that him kicking "an extra 10-15 goals a season" would make him go down in people's reckoning?

Do you honestly think that the Hawks (and Buddy himself) are not trying to improve his set shot conversion, for fear of him becoming a worse footballer?

 

[Sanders]

Do you honestly think that the Hawks (and Buddy himself) are not trying to improve his set shot conversion, for fear of him becoming a worse footballer?

If you truly believe they are working on his mechanics then I don't know what anyone could say to help you understand the debate

 

[ftmch]

If you truly believe they are working on his mechanics then I don't know what anyone could say to help you understand the debate

So in your view, the coaches at HFC accept that "Buddys action is Buddys action", and if that means he's only going to give them 60% from set shots then so be it, cos at least he can hoof them from outside 50 on the boundary.

I would be gobsmacked if they weren't actively looking at addressing this.

 

[Mismatched]

Not an expert but I personally think he was just buggered. He did a lot of running in 39 degree heat, he was one guy who busted his arse, over the two games and fatigue tends to interfere with a routine. He is generally a good kick, not concerned at this stage.

Which is the other massive reason for goal kicking issues and comes back to my point that the "leaning back" probably was the symptom, more so than the problem. I think if you focus too much on a certain aspect of the technique in this situation, you can create more problems than you solve.

 

[Mismatched]

Really good post, thanks for taking the time.

The practice volume is an intetesting one. For years we've seen the sports scientist limit the number of kicks per week because it leafs to fatigue, stress, injury.

What emerged recently though is that you only need to limit the volume of kicking to allow for the copious amount of running.

The payoff is skills for fitness.

Personally I think there's some truth to the limiting of the volume of kicking, but football clubs go too far. I think there should be a limit on the distance kicks, ie 40m plus, this is where Hammies are pulled, groins are torn, backs are put out of place etc. however, I think these guys could benefit a lot more from practicing their short kicks and set shots at high volume, without a massive risk of increasing injuries.

 

[Mismatched]

You could change his game, and it would do one of three things:
- make him better
- have no impact
- make him worse

Given that 99.9% of footballers of all time are worse than him, I reckon your chances of making him even better are less than zero.

Most (all) of the goals he does kick are hook foots. And we're saying take those away...


Goal kicking is a perfect one. Conventional coaching wisdom tells you that you should run in straight towards the target. Yet Buddy is the best forward in the game. Watch Darren Jarman kick - another who hooked it, though not to Buddy's extreme.

I think you've hit an important point, just because a guy hooks the ball doesn't mean it should be changed. I think you're better off doing what feels natural and making that work, than trying to seek a "perfect technique". Personally my set-shot issues happened soon after my year 10 coach(extremely highly regarded in SA football circles) tried to straighten my run up. He spent a considerable amount of time with me doing so. He was the kind of player where everything was straight and balanced, similar to Porplyzia.

For me running straight wasn't natural, and now knowing more about my own personal biomechanics and muscle balances I understand why. Anyway I started worrying about my technique more and started spraying them everywhere. I got it under control, started kicking goals again, but it had hampered a level of development.

I've recently opened up my run up, given myself a little hook, accounting for a hook, feels more natural and far more reproducible.

The other thing running in straight did was force me to kick over the man on the mark, having previously gone around.

I've similarly played with blokes who have goal kicking techniques worse than buddy and yet have unbelievable accuracy.

Hence I've come to the conclusion that perfect technique is great, but be very careful when seeking it. It's not for everyone.

 

[Mismatched]

So in your view, the coaches at HFC accept that "Buddys action is Buddys action", and if that means he's only going to give them 60% from set shots then so be it, cos at least he can hoof them from outside 50 on the boundary.

I would be gobsmacked if they weren't actively looking at addressing this.

They'd be addressing it, but carefully. Changing a players technique drastically, or even minimally can be fraught with danger in my experience.

 

[FR0GGY]

Messing with people's technique often has negative effects in golf or tennis for example

Yeah look what happened to tiger woods. He had a "technique" going that worked for him and when he had to change, it all went to shit.

 

[ftmch]

They'd be addressing it, but carefully. Changing a players technique drastically, or even minimally can be fraught with danger in my experience.

Absolutely - I'm not suggesting they would be trying to overhaul his action. I was just tackling the ridiculous assertion that they wouldn't be trying to improve it.

 

[AFC979810]

Riley and Lyons.
Play Crouch in the SANFL this season, next season will be in our best 22.

What good is Crouch in the SANFL going to do?

Crouch is special. The kid would have gone top 5 in this years draft. He is highly touted - has had two full AFL preseasons in addition to playing a season plus finals in the SANFL against men.

We traded away our pick 10 in the 2011 draft in addition to our compo pick (pick 17 in 2012) to get him. As a club we have never had access to a player regarded as highly as a junior as Crouch.

For his development (injuries permitting of course) he has to play at least 15 games.

You need to invest in high level talent at every opportunity.