Perhaps part of the reason why we are where we are today

[Horace]

If my memory serves me correctly, we started 2020 fairly well with a couple of wins, before covid-19 turned football upside down, just as it did everything else.

In Round 2 that year, with Rhyce Shaw

Rhyce Shaw

Age

42

Ht

182cm

Wt

81kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

17.8

4star

K

12.0

4star

HB

5.8

4star

M

4.3

4star

T

2.1

4star

MG

313.2

4star

No current season stats available

D

8.4

3star

K

6.8

3star

HB

1.6

2star

M

3.6

4star

T

0.8

3star

at the helm, we sent the following team out and beat the GWS by 20 points.

B: Macmillan, Tarrant, McDonald
HB: Pittard, Walker, Atley
C: Dumont, Cunnington, Polec
HF: Thomas, Brown, Taylor
F: Hall, Ziebell, Zurhaar
FOLL: Goldstein, Higgins, Simpkin
I/C: Anderson, Hayden, Scott, Wood

Out from that team today are 13 players being:

MacMillan, Tarrant, Pittard, Atley, Dumont, Cunnington, Polec, Brown, Hall, Higgins, Anderson, Hayden, Wood.

Of that 13, just Cunnington, Polec, Hall, Hayden and Anderson remain and of course are all injured except Hayden. Cunners may never play again, but he would have made some difference if he had been out there today.

Tarrant, Dumont, Higgins, Wood and Brown all played for other teams this weekend and on current form of each, would still be in our 22.

Their replacements today were Young, Davies-Uniake, Larkey, Curtis, Bosenavulagi, McKay, Corr, Xerri, Horne-Francis, Mahony, Perez, Greenwood and Turner.

The 9 remaining from that team who played today are McDonald, Walker, Thomas, Taylor, Ziebell, Zurhaar, Goldstein, Simpkin and Scott.

In my opinion, this is a huge change in personnel in just 2 years and while it does not go all the way to explaining why we are struggling again this year, it has to be a fair part of the reason.

 

[SMaturin]

It is indeed a fair part of the reason.

 

[R00StaR]

If my memory serves me correctly, we started 2020 fairly well with a couple of wins, before covid-19 turned football upside down, just as it did everything else.

In Round 2 that year, with Rhyce Shaw at the helm, we sent the following team out and beat the GWS by 20 points.

B: Macmillan, Tarrant, McDonald
HB: Pittard, Walker, Atley
C: Dumont, Cunnington, Polec
HF: Thomas, Brown, Taylor
F: Hall, Ziebell, Zurhaar
FOLL: Goldstein, Higgins, Simpkin
I/C: Anderson, Hayden, Scott, Wood

Out from that team today are 13 players being:

MacMillan, Tarrant, Pittard, Atley, Dumont, Cunnington, Polec, Brown, Hall, Higgins, Anderson, Hayden, Wood.

Of that 13, just Cunnington, Polec, Hall, Hayden and Anderson remain and of course are all injured except Hayden. Cunners may never play again, but he would have made some difference if he had been out there today.

Tarrant, Dumont, Higgins, Wood and Brown all played for other teams this weekend and on current form of each, would still be in our 22.

Their replacements today were Young, Davies-Uniake, Larkey, Curtis, Bosenavulagi, McKay, Corr, Xerri, Horne-Francis, Mahony, Perez, Greenwood and Turner.

The 9 remaining from that team who played today are McDonald, Walker, Thomas, Taylor, Ziebell, Zurhaar, Goldstein, Simpkin and Scott.

In my opinion, this is a huge change in personnel in just 2 years and while it does not go all the way to explaining why we are struggling again this year, it has to be a fair part of the reason.

Yeah but we soon fell in a major hole with it being obvious to all we needed to turn over the list.
Losing Taz and Cunners are by far and away the biggest pain points then Hall. Just those 3 would make a huge difference to this team, but mostly out of our hands.

 

[Masked Avenger]

If my memory serves me correctly, we started 2020 fairly well with a couple of wins, before covid-19 turned football upside down, just as it did everything else.

In Round 2 that year, with Rhyce Shaw at the helm, we sent the following team out and beat the GWS by 20 points.

B: Macmillan, Tarrant, McDonald
HB: Pittard, Walker, Atley
C: Dumont, Cunnington, Polec
HF: Thomas, Brown, Taylor
F: Hall, Ziebell, Zurhaar
FOLL: Goldstein, Higgins, Simpkin
I/C: Anderson, Hayden, Scott, Wood

Out from that team today are 13 players being:

MacMillan, Tarrant, Pittard, Atley, Dumont, Cunnington, Polec, Brown, Hall, Higgins, Anderson, Hayden, Wood.

Of that 13, just Cunnington, Polec, Hall, Hayden and Anderson remain and of course are all injured except Hayden. Cunners may never play again, but he would have made some difference if he had been out there today.

Tarrant, Dumont, Higgins, Wood and Brown all played for other teams this weekend and on current form of each, would still be in our 22.

Their replacements today were Young, Davies-Uniake, Larkey, Curtis, Bosenavulagi, McKay, Corr, Xerri, Horne-Francis, Mahony, Perez, Greenwood and Turner.

The 9 remaining from that team who played today are McDonald, Walker, Thomas, Taylor, Ziebell, Zurhaar, Goldstein, Simpkin and Scott.

In my opinion, this is a huge change in personnel in just 2 years and while it does not go all the way to explaining why we are struggling again this year, it has to be a fair part of the reason.

More than fair part of the reason Horrie. That is the reason.

That 2020 team would beat our 2022 team by 10 goals but in the end we'd be no closer to a flag if those players were still here.

With a few exceptions, they were C graders. With a few exceptions, our senior blokes now are D graders.

We need to pump games into our young guys because, despite the chicken littles on this board, that's where the solution lies.

 

[Horace]

Yeah but we soon fell in a major hole with it being obvious to all we needed to turn over the list.
Losing Taz and Cunners are by far and away the biggest pain points then Hall. Just those 3 would make a huge difference to this team, but mostly out of our hands.

As much as anything the point I am trying to make is that it is hard to adjust to so many changes and so many new and different faces around you. It takes time. On the other hand most of the Geelong team there yesterday have been playing together now for many years.

More than fair part of the reason Horrie. That is the reason.

That 2020 team would beat our 2022 team by 10 goals but in the end we'd be no closer to a flag if those players were still here.

With a few exceptions, they were C graders. With a few exceptions, our senior blokes now are D graders.

We need to pump games into our young guys because, despite the chicken littles on this board, that's where the solution lies.

Yes we really have to be prepared to put up with a lot of pain if we are to progress. Patience is a virtue, but I rather suspect we have very few patient supporters.

 

[SonofSamsquanch]

And in the other threads from the past few days and weeks we have a call for a greater purge of the list. It might be needed for all I know, but names are being thrown around left right and centre.

But here's my thought... Apart from the extremes, which are the very best players and the least best, most clubs would have a bunch of players that are roughly equivalent in terms of age, games experience, capability etc. The contenders no doubt would have more above average (which is partly why they'd be contending) and those in the lesser ranks of the ladder would typically have some currently below average in terms of output, skill and ability.

The difference between the top and bottom sides is generally at the extremes. The middle of the pack players will not be hugely different and if the rules allowed it, possibly, the top and bottom teams could swap half a dozen players from the middle rated group and the teams would hardly be affected.

The top teams will have a few really good players and less not so good players but the real point of difference is how the teams exploit ther champions and limit the damage from their duds.

If the better team's game plan uses the team's best players in their ideal positions and is structured so that the ball is delivered to their advantage as many times as possible then they are likely to score, and assuming the plan works well enough and the players perform to their expected standards, then it is likely that they will beat a lesser team. In ideal conditions, if a supposedly lesser team can put it together and execute the plan that works for their list then they could even beat a "better" team on any given day.

But if a team plays without a game plan, or can't deliver the ball in the structures of the game plan, if players are not in positions that suit their skills or they are matched against a clearly superior opponent then there's a fair chance they will be beaten. And it can be a disasterous loss when the structures break down. When players start chasing the ball all over the shop, when they are competing against teammates for marks, missing targets, giving away free kicks and just losing composure it can be totally disasterous.

I know this H, because I've seen it happen

In my opinion, provided the team's list is spread over a reasonable age range, they are healthy, fit and have the right balance of muscle development for the role they're in the team to play, and provided the players are getting the right training and they've built experience, they've got the right mental aptitude and attitude then turning the list over time and time again is not the answer.

If those basic elements are missing, there may be a need to trade somebody out to fill a gap and there will aways be a few retirements, plus some who just can't make it for whatever reason, but throwing out another six, eight, ten or a dozen players is not going to instantly improve the club. It will set the club back further (unless there are some miracle recruits - and this aint the 1970s).

So allowing for whatever attrition occurs at the end of this season, and whatever the list manager is able to bring in, the improvements need to come largely from the bunch that's running around in blue and white today. Oh, and it also needs to come from the coaching panel, fitness trainers, support staff and whoever else is a part of the footbal department who select the teams, build the game plans and develop the skillsets and capabilities of the players to be able to execute the plan.


OK... I'm tired. I've said too much here and in other threads.

At least you have tried to focus on the cause of the issues at a club level as opposed to potting individual players of coaches.

I personally hope that the list and the football department can get it together and radical change will not be required as that would be just another setback. 22 years and more is long enough between drinks.

 

[Gasometer]

When Hutch was pointing out our impending List Cliff a few years back, I was in on the pile in. Hutch was correct.

 

[travelli]

Yes we really have to be prepared to put up with a lot of pain if we are to progress. Patience is a virtue, but I rather suspect we have very few patient supporters.

We do have patient supporters. Don't be put off by the noisy minority on bf/Facebook.

Everyone knew there was going to be some pain.

 

[Hojuman]

Bad analogy ( sorry ) but the team a bit like Cunners.

" look mate, you're not well, you going to have to take this horrible medicine to get better and you might have to do it twice to become healthy "

 

[outwecome2play]

Great post.
I discovered yesterday that i need to keep away from the game day and the changes post.
I really hate it when supporters take shots at certain players. I swear they sweat on every mistake to justify their opinion.
The good times will come.

 

[Gasometer]

Great post.
I discovered yesterday that i need to keep away from the game day and the changes post.
I really hate it when supporters take shots at certain players. I swear they sweat on every mistake to justify their opinion.
The good times will come.

If that’s the case best you not visit either any time because not much changes between good and bad times

 

[roos_fanatic08]

Might’ve been in a better position had we of not completely ****ed the trades for Brown & Tarrant. Getting decent returns for players of that caliber is integral to us moving forward.

 

[Roosurgence]

Yes we really have to be prepared to put up with a lot of pain if we are to progress. Patience is a virtue, but I rather suspect we have very few patient supporters.

I have no issue with patience if there is some evidence of growth, but I am not sure we can say that is the case?

 

[The acurate one]

Might’ve been in a better position had we of not completely f’ed the trades for Brown & Tarrant. Getting decent returns for players of that caliber is integral to us moving forward.

Geez man, not sure how we were going to achieve that. We didn't want Brown at the club and Tarrant was the same age as Waite was when he came to North. The AFL decreed Waite as an FA had no trade value.

( answering the OP)
We are where we are today due to taking to our list with a hatchet. 22 odd players gone in a very short time.

Years after year of horrid drafting leaving us with Goldy, Cunners as senior gun players. Averaging a ninth finish for ten years straight left us with slim picking come draft time.

Never having the balls to trade a player with value hasn't helped. We may need to do this at seasons end. Maybe a Zurhaar, Edwards or an LDU. Would depend on who is available of course to fill a need.

We just spent 12 years topping up on other clubs discards, and we're now paying the piper. I did say we'd finish last as the 2021 team would be us comfortably.

If Curtis, Comben, Bergman, Perez, Goater, Edwards all come on it will change things rather quickly.

Oh well

 

[Gasometer]

Well we also had the slight disruption of Expansion Teams coming in during those 12 years

 

[Hojuman]

Well we also had the slight disruption of Expansion Teams coming in during those 12 years

Rooted any earlier rebuild we might have had between 2016 - 2019.

 

[ferball]

Might’ve been in a better position had we of not completely f’ed the trades for Brown & Tarrant. Getting decent returns for players of that caliber is integral to us moving forward.

We got what Brown was worth. He's nothing like the player he was and he has the best midfield in the comp to supply him.

We should have let Taz go for nothing tho.

 

[Le Grille]

Never having the balls to trade a player with value hasn't helped. We may need to do this at seasons end. Maybe a Zurhaar, Edwards or an LDU. Would depend on who is available of course to fill a need.

Swap Simpkin for LDU

 

[The acurate one]

Well we also had the slight disruption of Expansion Teams coming in during those 12 years

Yes we did and it wasn't like we were blindsided by them entering the comp. Just sayin'.

 

[Gasometer]

Yes we did and it wasn't like we were blindsided by them entering the comp. Just sayin'.

My point being that being middle of the ladder meant any Draft picks we had were diluted

 

[Roosurgence]

My point being that being middle of the ladder meant any Draft picks we had were diluted

Every other club had the same challenges.

Don’t blame equalisation for what has been a terrible list build.

There has been enough time for us to bring in enough talent to be competitive.

You can’t blame the current mess on the current crew, but they aren’t doing much to fix it.

Even having a poor list doesn’t absolve the coaching group from having a lack of gameplan or sustainable playing style. Even average AFL footballers can be taught to play a role and be effective.

 

[Cool Kangas]

If my memory serves me correctly, we started 2020 fairly well with a couple of wins, before covid-19 turned football upside down, just as it did everything else.

In Round 2 that year, with Rhyce Shaw at the helm, we sent the following team out and beat the GWS by 20 points.

B: Macmillan, Tarrant, McDonald
HB: Pittard, Walker, Atley
C: Dumont, Cunnington, Polec
HF: Thomas, Brown, Taylor
F: Hall, Ziebell, Zurhaar
FOLL: Goldstein, Higgins, Simpkin
I/C: Anderson, Hayden, Scott, Wood

Out from that team today are 13 players being:

MacMillan, Tarrant, Pittard, Atley, Dumont, Cunnington, Polec, Brown, Hall, Higgins, Anderson, Hayden, Wood.

Of that 13, just Cunnington, Polec, Hall, Hayden and Anderson remain and of course are all injured except Hayden. Cunners may never play again, but he would have made some difference if he had been out there today.

Tarrant, Dumont, Higgins, Wood and Brown all played for other teams this weekend and on current form of each, would still be in our 22.

Their replacements today were Young, Davies-Uniake, Larkey, Curtis, Bosenavulagi, McKay, Corr, Xerri, Horne-Francis, Mahony, Perez, Greenwood and Turner.

The 9 remaining from that team who played today are McDonald, Walker, Thomas, Taylor, Ziebell, Zurhaar, Goldstein, Simpkin and Scott.

In my opinion, this is a huge change in personnel in just 2 years and while it does not go all the way to explaining why we are struggling again this year, it has to be a fair part of the reason.

Horace thanks for common sense. Btw, why’d you choose the Roos after being a Roy’s supporter given our previous precarious position (financially) over the years? Weren’t you concerned about maybe going through the heartbreak again?

 

[koshari]

It is indeed a fair part of the reason.

the reast of the reason was wasting our 2nd rounders on, dec watson, josh williams, ryan clarke, corey wagner etc..... that period left a big hole in our list where these picks should be the core of our current team.

 

[Roosurgence]

the reast of the reason was wasting our 2nd rounders on, dec watson, josh williams, ryan clarke, corey wagner etc..... that period left a big hole in our list where these picks should be the core of our current team.

Yet we wasted 10 years on the clown that oversaw the destruction of the list.

I just don’t want to see us waste another 10 years in no man’s land if this bloke doesn’t show he has the tools to get the job done.

 

[koshari]

Yet we wasted 10 years on the clown that oversaw the destruction of the list.

I just don’t want to see us waste another 10 years in no man’s land if this bloke doesn’t show he has the tools to get the job done.

we are back in a similar spot to when BS started, he was appointed at a time when the list was crap but also young and we had a bit of scope for improvement with our draft hand, and realistically any caretaker coach would have done , the issues came when we went off the rails the year after we beat essendon to get into the prelim, thats when the rot set in and BS and Joyce were firmly entrenched.