Perhaps part of the reason why we are where we are today

[Hearts to hearts]

When I compare our list with those of other clubs that are rebuilding, there is a real gap in the class of the senior players left to guide the young ones. Pies, Hawks, Crows all have senior players who have been important in successful teams that have reached and played in Grand Finals. Our senior players, with respect, are middling performers and/or guys other clubs have been comfortable moving on. I don’t see we have any choice except to follow the example of Melbourne and Brisbane, root and branch rebuild and add mature talent through trades and FA. It will take time, but as both those clubs have shown, once we show we are on the right track players will be interested in joining us.

 

[Horace]

FWIW, shortly after the 2020 player purge and National Draft, a current AFL coach, the son of some people I have known for many years, told me that in his view, with our list, we could not expect to challenge for finals for at least 4 to 5 years. I was probably in denial at that stage and found that hard to swallow, but in retrospect I think he was pretty much on the money.

 

[Gasometer]

Every other club had the same challenges.

Don’t blame equalisation for what has been a terrible list build.

There has been enough time for us to bring in enough talent to be competitive.

You can’t blame the current mess on the current crew, but they aren’t doing much to fix it.

Even having a poor list doesn’t absolve the coaching group from having a lack of gameplan or sustainable playing style. Even average AFL footballers can be taught to play a role and be effective.

I was responding to list of issues in the OP post and added this factor as an additional

 

[Roosurgence]

And where did I do that?
I was responding to list of issues in the post and added this factor
Go get your spectacles

It was made out that we were screwed over by the new sides coming into the comp.

We were screwed over by s**t drafting.

Plenty of other clubs found a way to bring in talent later in the draft.

Using that excuse doesn’t cut it, when you look at the picks we made and where they are now.

 

[Horace]

Horace thanks for common sense. Btw, why’d you choose the Roos after being a Roy’s supporter given our previous precarious position (financially) over the years? Weren’t you concerned about maybe going through the heartbreak again?

Well a number of reasons, but maybe the fact that a team was soon to be made up of - looks up at the 1999 Premiership photo and reading from the back row - Bell, Grant, Archer, King, Simpson, Welsh, Motlop, Abraham, my man Pikey, Blakey, Mooney, Martyn, Capuano, McKernan, Longmire, Clayton (my other man), Allison, Sholl, Stevens, Pagan, Carey, Boomer and Choppy, might have had a bit to do with it, even in 1997, two years earlier.

 

[shinboner magic]

The disappointing is after our second half of 2021 we have gone back to the drawing board.

We’ve lost taz, froggy and cunners of note since then.

Cunners big loss and taz for structural purposes - we’ve always struggled to cover missing players.

Just lost all structure this season but the most damning thing on our side is there’s no desperation.
We’re rudderless

 

[rooboy335]

Just felt like doing a little post to see where I think the list is at. I am by no means an expert in list management, but I feel as though we are much better placed for a consistent shot at finals in the coming seasons than what our performances so far this year are leading us to believe (forever the optimist). I'll list a few points below to explain why:

• The list below consists of players who IMO will form the nucleus of the side in the coming 2-3 seasons
• I have not included players who I feel won't play a part in our next premiership push as they will either be too old (Goldy, Ziebell etc.) or IMO won't make it (Hayden, McGuinness etc.)

B: _____ McKay Corr
HB: McDonald _____ Perez
C: Stephenson LDU Taylor
HF: Larkey Comben Thomas
F: Zurhaar CCJ Curtis
R: Xerri Simpkin JHF
I: Powell Phillips Anderson, Ford


Depth:
Backs
Young, Turner, Bonar, Bergman, Archer

Mids
Mahony, Scott, Lazzaro, Goater

Forwards
Bosenavulagi, Spicer


Ruck
Edwards


The Good

• The unbolded players IMO have all shown they can play and should at the very least be solid/above average players for us. That is a fair portion of the best 22 sorted
• The players in bold are still a wait and see, but have the potential to become starting 22 players
• The oldest player in that 22 is Anderson who has recently turned 28
• The midfield appears pretty much set for the foreseeable future
• The forward line looks potent, and should become all the more dangerous once the midfield has matured into the extremely competitive and hopefully dominant unit that we're all expecting

The Bad

• Depth is very shallow besides maybe Goater, Bergman, Edwards (and maaaybe Atu and Spice), and they don't appear to have huge ceilings or scope for improvement
• No surprise but we are in desperate need of some tall timber down back, a genuine key forward and a talented user at half back who can also lockdown wouldn't go astray either
• Question marks on who will fill the BP, and CHB positions

General Notes

• If the players in bold could all come good that'd be great. Especially Comben who just becomes so important. If he nails down a KPF spot for the next decade that would be so helpful to our rebuild, especially if we don't end up with Lemmey or another key forward in this years draft/trade period
• I know I've got Larkey at half forward, I think he's done well for what's been asked of him these past few seasons, but I don't see Larks as that big, imposing #1 key forward in our forward line. Can just see him doing so much better when he's not the main man and having to contend with double teams.
• I don't think Atu can defend which is why I have him as Forward depth
• The bench is makeshift and is filled with players most likely to make it or offer something to the best 22

TL;DR - I don't think it's all doom and gloom. I genuinely believe things will change and change quickly with where our list is currently at. And by quickly I don't mean this season, I'm talking in 2-3 seasons time. I know we live in a world of instant gratification, but c'mon you have to be realistic. We have just ticked over year one of the Noble era, and Noble's first preseason where he's had full reign.

Calls for Noble's head because he's not playing Powell, or potting the recruitment team for picking Phillips over McDonald is ridiculous. These guys are in their second seasons, the infancy of their careers for goodness sakes. It wouldn't hurt to have a modicum of patience.

A few shrewd recruits over the next few seasons, further investment of talented youth at the draft, and natural development of our high end talent and I can see us at the very least being a competitive, extremely dangerous side to play against (obviously hoping for bigger and better things).

 

[Gasometer]

It was made out that we were screwed over by the new sides coming into the comp.

We were screwed over by s**t drafting.

Plenty of other clubs found a way to bring in talent later in the draft.

Using that excuse doesn’t cut it, when you look at the picks we made and where they are now.

Read the context of the thread will ya

 

[RossHenshaw]

Just felt like doing a little post to see where I think the list is at. I am by no means an expert in list management, but I feel as though we are much better placed for a consistent shot at finals in the coming seasons than what our performances so far this year are leading us to believe (forever the optimist). I'll list a few points below to explain why:

• The list below consists of players who IMO will form the nucleus of the side in the coming 2-3 seasons
• I have not included players who I feel won't play a part in our next premiership push as they will either be too old (Goldy, Ziebell etc.) or IMO won't make it (Hayden, McGuinness etc.)

B: _____ McKay Corr
HB: McDonald _____ Perez
C: Stephenson LDU Taylor
HF: Larkey Comben Thomas
F: Zurhaar CCJ Curtis
R: Xerri Simpkin JHF
I: Powell Phillips Anderson, Ford


Depth:
Backs
Young, Turner, Bonar, Bergman, Archer

Mids
Mahony, Scott, Lazzaro, Goater

Forwards
Bosenavulagi, Spicer


Ruck
Edwards


The Good

• The unbolded players IMO have all shown they can play and should at the very least be solid/above average players for us. That is a fair portion of the best 22 sorted
• The players in bold are still a wait and see, but have the potential to become starting 22 players
• The oldest player in that 22 is Anderson who has recently turned 28
• The midfield appears pretty much set for the foreseeable future
• The forward line looks potent, and should become all the more dangerous once the midfield has matured into the extremely competitive and hopefully dominant unit that we're all expecting

The Bad

• Depth is very shallow besides maybe Goater, Bergman, Edwards (and maaaybe Atu and Spice), and they don't appear to have huge ceilings or scope for improvement
• No surprise but we are in desperate need of some tall timber down back, a genuine key forward and a talented user at half back who can also lockdown wouldn't go astray either
• Question marks on who will fill the BP, and CHB positions

General Notes

• If the players in bold could all come good that'd be great. Especially Comben who just becomes so important. If he nails down a KPF spot for the next decade that would be so helpful to our rebuild, especially if we don't end up with Lemmey or another key forward in this years draft/trade period
• I know I've got Larkey at half forward, I think he's done well for what's been asked of him these past few seasons, but I don't see Larks as that big, imposing #1 key forward in our forward line. Can just see him doing so much better when he's not the main man and having to contend with double teams.
• I don't think Atu can defend which is why I have him as Forward depth
• The bench is makeshift and is filled with players most likely to make it or offer something to the best 22

TL;DR - I don't think it's all doom and gloom. I genuinely believe things will change and change quickly with where our list is currently at. And by quickly I don't mean this season, I'm talking in 2-3 seasons time. I know we live in a world of instant gratification, but c'mon you have to be realistic. We have just ticked over year one of the Noble era, and Noble's first preseason where he's had full reign.

Calls for Noble's head because he's not playing Powell, or potting the recruitment team for picking Phillips over McDonald is ridiculous. These guys are in their second seasons, the infancy of their careers for goodness sakes. It wouldn't hurt to have a modicum of patience.

A few shrewd recruits over the next few seasons, further investment of talented youth at the draft, and natural development of our high end talent and I can see us at the very least being a competitive, extremely dangerous side to play against (obviously hoping for bigger and better things).

Little post ?!….
Hate to see your large post …

 

[Hearts to hearts]

Adding to my earlier post - yesterday when the game was in the balance, Collingwood swung Scott Pendlebury

10

Scott Pendlebury

Age

36

Ht

191cm

Wt

86kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

26.5

5star

K

13.2

5star

HB

13.3

5star

M

4.1

4star

T

4.9

5star

CL

4.9

5star

D

25.1

5star

K

12.3

5star

HB

12.9

5star

M

3.4

3star

T

2.3

3star

CL

3.6

4star

D

12.4

4star

K

7.6

3star

HB

4.8

4star

M

5.8

5star

T

2.6

4star

(Norm Smith winner in a premiership) into the midfield and turned a three-quarter clearance deficit into a last-quarter clearance win and game win. I heard him interviewed after the game and he said it’s his job to go from the backline to the midfield if the opposition is setting up stoppages in a way they didn’t plan for, so he can organise everyone, keep things calm, and make sure young players like Nick Daicos stay outside and can use the ball with freedom once the more experienced guys have won it. It makes a big difference to have that IP and skill in execution and leadership on the field. We just don’t.

 

[Tas]

If my memory serves me correctly, we started 2020 fairly well with a couple of wins, before covid-19 turned football upside down, just as it did everything else.

In Round 2 that year, with Rhyce Shaw at the helm, we sent the following team out and beat the GWS by 20 points.

B: Macmillan, Tarrant, McDonald
HB: Pittard, Walker, Atley
C: Dumont, Cunnington, Polec
HF: Thomas, Brown, Taylor
F: Hall, Ziebell, Zurhaar
FOLL: Goldstein, Higgins, Simpkin
I/C: Anderson, Hayden, Scott, Wood

Out from that team today are 13 players being:

MacMillan, Tarrant, Pittard, Atley, Dumont, Cunnington, Polec, Brown, Hall, Higgins, Anderson, Hayden, Wood.

Of that 13, just Cunnington, Polec, Hall, Hayden and Anderson remain and of course are all injured except Hayden. Cunners may never play again, but he would have made some difference if he had been out there today.

Tarrant, Dumont, Higgins, Wood and Brown all played for other teams this weekend and on current form of each, would still be in our 22.

Their replacements today were Young, Davies-Uniake, Larkey, Curtis, Bosenavulagi, McKay, Corr, Xerri, Horne-Francis, Mahony, Perez, Greenwood and Turner.

The 9 remaining from that team who played today are McDonald, Walker, Thomas, Taylor, Ziebell, Zurhaar, Goldstein, Simpkin and Scott.

In my opinion, this is a huge change in personnel in just 2 years and while it does not go all the way to explaining why we are struggling again this year, it has to be a fair part of the reason.

The 2020 side had less talent on potential but it was a more mature side. We fielded many sides like that which beat on teams like Melbourne, Richmond, etc before their elite talent matured. Scrounging some wins and finishing around mid table is only an achievement when nobody thinks you are good enough to finish mid table, it isn't a pinnacle you hope to attain.

This might be unpopular, but we held on to plodders for a long time and we poorly developed players who had potential to be a whole lot better than what we produced. If you screw up player development for so long you end up in a place like where we are today.

From the end of Scotts' term and early in Shaw's term, when we were good our pressure was manic. When it wasn't, we were s**t.

We've been flogged numerous times with Tarrant in the back line, he is a good defender but if the opposition is allowed to waltz the ball into our defensive 50 we are ZERO chance of defending. Hitting targets when under the pump vs hitting targets in a training drill are two completely different things. We make it too easy for the opposition to score by not pressuring the opposition.

None of the players you mentioned we have missing are required for us to be competitive. You don't need to be a 100 game player to have the hunger to pressure. We have for years been a 50ish tackling side. Geelong pants us and still lead the tackling 71 to 55. Defense is not something that is part of this coach's mantra and when you are missing players like Cunnington and Anderson there is that lack of on-field leadership to do the defensive work around stoppages.

As much as the side has been turned over, I have doubts half those who played on the weekend will be part of a more successful team and on what we have shown this year, we are still 3+ years off from being a good team but that can change depending on how well we develop.

Based on age alone, Ziebell, Greenwood, Goldstein and Walker wont be there. I have some doubts for different reasons on Turner, Atu, Young and Mahony be it the roles they play and their potential longer term.

But, it isn't all doom n' gloom.

Powell, Phillips and Stephenson didn't play. There is a lot of potential with Comben, Edwards and Goater. It is ridiculous we aren't playing CCJ.

Our major problem atm is LDU, Simpkin and whoever else is moving through the middle and the flanks aren't working as a cohesive unti. We had 38 clearances vs 27 against the Cats, 15 vs 10 in the middle and 23 vs 17 from stoppages. We just turn the ball over at will, we are sloppy, fumbly and that just gives more time for the opposition to pressure us.

The sad reality is of all the changes we have endured, we just couldn't afford to be without Cunnington and Anderson and hope to be competitive against potential top 4 sides. There is too much pressure on Simpkin atm and we have guys on the fringes who are young/flaky. We need players like Phillips and Powell back in the side and we need them to transition fast from boys into men. I think with JHF, Powell and Phillips things will improve very quickly in a year or two but for the present there is going to be some pain.

If we had a coach who was defensive oriented he could probably throw in Hayden, Bonar, move Ziebell and Zurhaar into the guts and set the standard for pressure, pressure, pressure and up the tackling from 50s to 80s and we would probably still lost but go down by a few goals instead of 10 goals and knock over more mediocre sides but that isn't Noble.

 

[DarwinRoo]

Rhymes with Frady Bawlings!

 

[StiffArm]

Read the context of the thread will ya

The prick only has one gear.

 

[Dan]

For years we do the same thing over analysing the coach, the players, staff at the club......changes continue to be made in all those areas of the club but nothing seems to change on field.

This may be a superstitious view but is there a stigma at the club that doesn't allow people the reach the heights they should or and desire to be at? The club has in the past talked about going from surviving to thriving from an off-field operating point of view.

Is the Shinboner Spirit motto having negative effect on the players? Like a subconscious voice goes off in your head every time you hear that motto that reminds you that you're at the smallest club in the AFL that hasn't done anything significant in 20+ years? Why am I here? I don't deserve success?

Does the horde of players from other clubs that we tried to get over to ours amplify that negativity? Why do all of these players don't want to come to club I play for? What's the problem?

It's a left of field take but something I've never seen mentioned on here.

 

[Its a Process]

The list turn over reminds me of Carlton under Bolton who turned over 42 players in 3 years. Their progress was far from linear and ended up costing two coaches their jobs.

They drafted inconsistently with some serious high profile misses (SPS, Dow, O’Brien, McGovern) but it looks as though sheer weight of draft picks will see them being competitive again.

Hopefully our drafting process to be better and our climb up the ladder after this year is more linear like Brisbane achieved.

My biggest disappointment this year is our lack of pressure and tackling - we seem nice to play against which I hate.

 

[ferball]

For years we do the same thing over analysing the coach, the players, staff at the club......changes continue to be made in all those areas of the club but nothing seems to change on field.

This may be a superstitious view but is there a stigma at the club that doesn't allow people the reach the heights they should or and desire to be at? The club has in the past talked about going from surviving to thriving from an off-field operating point of view.

Is the Shinboner Spirit motto having negative effect on the players? Like a subconscious voice goes off in your head every time you hear that motto that reminds you that you're at the smallest club in the AFL that hasn't done anything significant in 20+ years? Why am I here? I don't deserve success?

Does the horde of players from other clubs that we tried to get over to ours amplify that negativity? Why do all of these players don't want to come to club I play for? What's the problem?

It's a left of field take but something I've never seen mentioned on here.

This is why i've been saying for years: we need psychological support - a sports psyche - involved with the club. (One who understands us and who likes a fight too.)

Since 2000 we've been repeatedly traumatised. First * won the flag. Then Carey rooted Kelly S and got busted. Then the Gold Coast move was pushed on us. It sounds like i'm being facetious but I'm serious.

I know you think racism is bullshit and all that but the reality is until China takes over the world (and Australia) probably the closest you (Dan) are gonna get to experiencing institutionalised racism is the treatment we get in the media and from the AFL. (Obviously it isn't the same thing, its just from the same set of things.)

Neither of those are good for anyone's psychological state. The events of this century and our general treatment are both traumatising.

But it doesn't mean we need counseling. We need the sports psyche to work with us on combating the effects of this stuff by developing strategies for self doubt onfield.

One of (if not) the best one(s) is to get angry and focus that anger on winning the ball and the game (and whatever else,) but that's a very old school attitude and probably doesn't get much support any more. WHat we cop is reality. its not gonna change so we need to harden up about it and start giving back what we get, like we've always done. This is the danger of becoming a modern, corporate entity. We forget our anti establishment, "lesser breeds with the law" origins. We forget where we came from and that its always been us against the world.

Until we reconnect with that all those doubts you identify, that plague the side onfield, will continue to eat away at us and our game.

 

[Sillygit]

This is why i've been saying for years: we need psychological support - a sports psyche - involved with the club. (One who understands us and who likes a fight too.)

Since 2000 we've been repeatedly traumatised. First * won the flag. Then Carey rooted Kelly S and got busted. Then the Gold Coast move was pushed on us. It sounds like i'm being facetious but I'm serious.

I know you think racism is bullshit and all that but the reality is until China takes over the world (and Australia) probably the closest you (Dan) are gonna get to experiencing institutionalised racism is the treatment we get in the media and from the AFL. (Obviously it isn't the same thing, its just from the same set of things.)

Neither of those are good for anyone's psychological state. The events of this century and our general treatment are both traumatising.

But it doesn't mean we need counseling. We need the sports psyche to work with us on combating the effects of this stuff by developing strategies for self doubt onfield.

One of (if not) the best one(s) is to get angry and focus that anger on winning the ball and the game (and whatever else,) but that's a very old school attitude and probably doesn't get much support any more. WHat we cop is reality. its not gonna change so we need to harden up about it and start giving back what we get, like we've always done. This is the danger of becoming a modern, corporate entity. We forget our anti establishment, "lesser breeds with the law" origins. We forget where we came from and that its always been us against the world.

Until we reconnect with that all those doubts you identify, that plague the side onfield, will continue to eat away at us and our game.

Sounds like you want a motivational speaker, not a psychologist.

 

[DesertRoo]

This is why i've been saying for years: we need psychological support - a sports psyche - involved with the club. (One who understands us and who likes a fight too.)

Since 2000 we've been repeatedly traumatised. First * won the flag. Then Carey rooted Kelly S and got busted. Then the Gold Coast move was pushed on us. It sounds like i'm being facetious but I'm serious.

I know you think racism is bullshit and all that but the reality is until China takes over the world (and Australia) probably the closest you (Dan) are gonna get to experiencing institutionalised racism is the treatment we get in the media and from the AFL. (Obviously it isn't the same thing, its just from the same set of things.)

Neither of those are good for anyone's psychological state. The events of this century and our general treatment are both traumatising.

But it doesn't mean we need counseling. We need the sports psyche to work with us on combating the effects of this stuff by developing strategies for self doubt onfield.

One of (if not) the best one(s) is to get angry and focus that anger on winning the ball and the game (and whatever else,) but that's a very old school attitude and probably doesn't get much support any more. WHat we cop is reality. its not gonna change so we need to harden up about it and start giving back what we get, like we've always done. This is the danger of becoming a modern, corporate entity. We forget our anti establishment, "lesser breeds with the law" origins. We forget where we came from and that its always been us against the world.

Until we reconnect with that all those doubts you identify, that plague the side onfield, will continue to eat away at us and our game.

they can do a group session with the fans too..

 

[Dan]

This is why i've been saying for years: we need psychological support - a sports psyche - involved with the club. (One who understands us and who likes a fight too.)

Since 2000 we've been repeatedly traumatised. First * won the flag. Then Carey rooted Kelly S and got busted. Then the Gold Coast move was pushed on us. It sounds like i'm being facetious but I'm serious.

I know you think racism is bullshit and all that but the reality is until China takes over the world (and Australia) probably the closest you (Dan) are gonna get to experiencing institutionalised racism is the treatment we get in the media and from the AFL. (Obviously it isn't the same thing, its just from the same set of things.)

Neither of those are good for anyone's psychological state. The events of this century and our general treatment are both traumatising.

But it doesn't mean we need counseling. We need the sports psyche to work with us on combating the effects of this stuff by developing strategies for self doubt onfield.

One of (if not) the best one(s) is to get angry and focus that anger on winning the ball and the game (and whatever else,) but that's a very old school attitude and probably doesn't get much support any more. WHat we cop is reality. its not gonna change so we need to harden up about it and start giving back what we get, like we've always done. This is the danger of becoming a modern, corporate entity. We forget our anti establishment, "lesser breeds with the law" origins. We forget where we came from and that its always been us against the world.

Until we reconnect with that all those doubts you identify, that plague the side onfield, will continue to eat away at us and our game.

I know you think racism is bullshit….

 

[ferball]

Sounds like you want a motivational speaker, not a psychologist.

Its not just motivational speaking, tho that obviously has a role in getting people up for the fight. Its building strategies to deal with doubt.

Ie when doubt triggers and the opposition have kicked two in a row and are eating into our five goal lead half way thru the third what mental processes do players go thru? How do we train them to go thru better mental processes that involve not shitting the bed?

In the minute before the ball is bounced at the start of the game where are the players focusing? What can we do to train them to focus on their immediate role at the next contest or in preperation for it and how to make that all work successfully?

 

[ferball]

I know you think racism is bullshit….

Sorry... institutionalised racism. (or sexism or other institutionalised bigotry.)

I should have been clearer.

 

[ferball]

they can do a group session with the fans too..

ROFLMAO Yes.... definitely.

 

[DesertRoo]

ROFLMAO Yes.... definitely.

we’re certainly at this stage of the movie..

 

[Sillygit]

Its not just motivational speaking, tho that obviously has a role in getting people up for the fight. Its building strategies to deal with doubt.

Ie when doubt triggers and the opposition have kicked two in a row and are eating into our five goal lead half way thru the third what mental processes do players go thru? How do we train them to go thru better mental processes that involve not shitting the bed?

In the minute before the ball is bounced at the start of the game where are the players focusing? What can we do to train them to focus on their immediate role at the next contest or in preperation for it and how to make that all work successfully?

Ahh fair go, i see what ya mean.

Yea so if it was that we were looking to incorporate the culture and identity to it as well, which i rate very highly as far the club and team sports in general go, then a psychologist trained in narrative therapy may be useful. Cause its about identity, stories, culture. These sorts if things that can directly create drive and purpose, motivation particularly facing different levels of adversity. Plus i think it would also solidify the group cause its collective identity as well individual. May even identify the players who already more significnlantly gel with this who can have roles in lifting others who feel it less so.

But then the majority of psychologists would be mainly or solely CBT focused. Which isn't a bad thing, good strategies in there too for sure, just think narrative would be a better fit.

 

[Themanbun]

it looks as though sheer weight of draft picks will see them being competitive again.

Hmm I don't think so. They needed some serious trade/free agency wins to get there.

Hewett, Saad, Martin, Lewis Young, Zac Williams, Adam Cerra, Pittonet, Setterfield all traded in. That's more than 1/3 of their 22.