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THE_GUN said:
But with the richmond list its been assembled and developed to play a game style that does not require the team to have numerous stars but players to play a certain way to maintain pressure and move the ball at all cost where the Pies list and game plan is different and an inferior version to the Cats/eagles style in ways and without the quality thats extremely difficult to maintain.

The Pies in 2018 had a game style that resembled the Tigers game style and it worked better but they reverted back in 2019 to more possession and contested game. Not sure what that reason but with out KPP that can dominate their positions it difficult to implement .

I see teams like St Kilda , Port , Cats , Carlton , Brisbane , Bulldogs and even melbourne being better in 2021 but cannot see the same with the Pies and if injuries do hit then its lights out with the thin depth now on the list with unknown kids taking up nearly 20 spots
Click to expand...

Exactly, game style and use of the list is the problem, not the list itself.

Apart from Treloar and Stepho, the list is not a lot damaged. Even then Treloar played out of his natural position had poor DE for the year and Stepho didn't contribute at all.

It could STILL contend IF it's used at potential, and I don't see that happening as you mentioned in your post.

Unsettled with all the new draftees yes, it's an unknown I agree. Again the list is /will be not the problem, it's the amateur hour player and game development that is.

Seems we agree.
 
Carringbush2010 said:
Exactly, game style and use of the list is the problem, not the list itself.

Apart from Treloar and Stepho, the list is not a lot damaged. Even then Treloar played out of his natural position had poor DE for the year and Stepho didn't contribute at all.

It could STILL contend IF it's used at potential, and I don't see that happening as you mentioned in your post.

Unsettled with all the new draftees yes, it's an unknown I agree. Again the list is /will be not the problem, it's the amateur hour player and game development that is.

Seems we agree.
Click to expand...

But you see this is actually the problem !

The list thats there (not taking into consideration 1-3 year players that have not played or just a few games) Is not the list that would suit a game style that lends itself to be able to implement a more chaotic/Pressure style
Roughead,Greenwood,Sidebottom,Thomas,Wills,WHE,Sier,Cox,Pendlebury,Brown,Cameron does not scream pressure.
 

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THE_GUN said:
But you see this is actually the problem !

The list thats there (not taking into consideration 1-3 year players that have not played or just a few games) Is not the list that would suit a game style that lends itself to be able to implement a more chaotic/Pressure style
Roughead,Greenwood,Sidebottom,Thomas,Wills,WHE,Sier,Cox,Pendlebury,Brown,Cameron does not scream pressure.
Click to expand...

You're oversimplifying it. A good pressure team like Richmond does have a balance of grunt type players, outside receivers and role for role players. Like Collingwood did in 2018. Right now that list is not a lot different.

Wills and Sier for example ARE your grunt type players where as Pendles (admittedly a both inside and outside player), Sides, and the hyphen are more your skillful ball user types.

There is no reason this similar list to 3 years ago cannot emulate what they did back then. All comes down to how the list is developed and used, right now you guys are doing it right and we are not.

That is the reason that the list is far from potential, not because of the list itself.
 
Carringbush2010 said:
Ok agree to disagree, how is it that this basket case list went from middling to contender after 2017 with near zero list change?

You can argue the list all day, the list is not the problem, a little unbalanced but it's not a 'make up the numbers' type list.

The problem is the mismanagement and waste of the list that attracts my realism.

So without going down a rabbit hole, IMV the window is shut because of how the club and more closely the FD operates - not the list.
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The biggest difference between 2017 and 2018 was consistency. One of the reasons I was pro-Buckley at the end of 2017 was that we generally played well against the best teams. We’d generally beat the bottom teams, play well against the top teams but often struggled against other middling teams. 2018 we started beating the middling teams consistently. 2020 looks much the same as 2017 really. Went 4-1-4 against other top 8 sides. Only the H&A loss to West Coast and the SF were ‘bad’ losses where we were nowhere near it. We rolled the bottom 5 sides but only went 1-4 against teams 9-13 on the ladder.

I think we’ll be middling again in 2021 as one of a few teams vying for the last couple of spots in the top 8.
 
Who wins the ball for them?

2024 Collingwood Disposals Per Game Leaders

2024 Collingwood Disposals Per Game Leaders.
www.footywire.com

Treloar is gone and someone will step up to fill those rotations, but Pendles will be 33 next season and still carries a huge burden. Sidebottom is quality but will be 30.
You'd expect Josh Daicos to improve from an already impressive base, but who else? Elliot is great around the contest but will he stay fit?

It's hard to see where they improve from last year and like a few clubs, KPD depth is a concern noting Roughy and Moore missed only 3 games between them last year and they haven't traditionally been super-durable types.
 
The loss of player is but the tip of the iceberg. The real damage is to the culture of the club in how the management (admin, coach) have treated players who have been there for half a decade. Trelor would send tremors around the club in that a player who just signed a 5 year extension was suddenly told a bunch of bullshit excuses why the club didn't want him..........in order to keep a perennially underperforming and also difficult off-field player in De Goey.

If trelor could be treated this way, and he is the prime mover of the club, then anybody of lesser stature at the club than him would be even more expandable. The window is not narrowing, it has shut and will be shut for sometimes. It's going to be self preservation mode for the players in 2021 until buckley and de goey is gone. When you screw up the de goey deal and * everyone over like that, there isn't going to be any quick fixes. Also, De Goey will still end up leaving after all this plus he has to face the assault charges.

In term of the losses, Trelor definitely a huge one as he is one of the main midfield player. THomas is very solid player and will be very solid contributor for hawthorn. Stephenson could very well be the biggest fish that collingwood have lost. He is atm inconsistent but he is a generational talent otherwise you don't become leading goal kicker for a club and get rise star award in your first year.
 
Mofra said:
Who wins the ball for them?

2024 Collingwood Disposals Per Game Leaders

2024 Collingwood Disposals Per Game Leaders.
www.footywire.com

Treloar is gone and someone will step up to fill those rotations, but Pendles will be 33 next season and still carries a huge burden. Sidebottom is quality but will be 30.
You'd expect Josh Daicos to improve from an already impressive base, but who else? Elliot is great around the contest but will he stay fit?

It's hard to see where they improve from last year and like a few clubs, KPD depth is a concern noting Roughy and Moore missed only 3 games between them last year and they haven't traditionally been super-durable types.
Click to expand...

But they are different position players right?

Trelor plays inside midfield, the most important position on the field as it is the first point of contact. Game starts from here.

Pendlebury doesn't seem to have a lot of support. In the ideal world, De Goey would have graduated to fulltime mid and onball for that matter. This hasn't eventuated and won't be for sometimes. The loss of Trelor and stephenson will be huge as one is the current mainstay and the other is getting trained into an onballer, a generational one.
 
Rad Roo said:
The loss of player is but the tip of the iceberg. The real damage is to the culture of the club in how the management (admin, coach) have treated players who have been there for half a decade. Trelor would send tremors around the club in that a player who just signed a 5 year extension was suddenly told a bunch of bullshit excuses why the club didn't want him..........in order to keep a perennially underperforming and also difficult off-field player in De Goey.

If trelor could be treated this way, and he is the prime mover of the club, then anybody of lesser stature at the club than him would be even more expandable. The window is not narrowing, it has shut and will be shut for sometimes. It's going to be self preservation mode for the players in 2021 until buckley and de goey is gone. When you screw up the de goey deal and fu** everyone over like that, there isn't going to be any quick fixes. Also, De Goey will still end up leaving after all this plus he has to face the assault charges.

In term of the losses, Trelor definitely a huge one as he is one of the main midfield player. THomas is very solid player and will be very solid contributor for hawthorn. Stephenson could very well be the biggest fish that collingwood have lost. He is atm inconsistent but he is a generational talent otherwise you don't become leading goal kicker for a club and get rise star award in your first year.
Click to expand...
More hyperbole, what a bunch of drama queens many north fans on here have become, have you been watching too many Gary ablett snr conspiracy vids?
 
Rad Roo said:
The loss of player is but the tip of the iceberg. The real damage is to the culture of the club in how the management (admin, coach) have treated players who have been there for half a decade. Trelor would send tremors around the club in that a player who just signed a 5 year extension was suddenly told a bunch of bullshit excuses why the club didn't want him..........in order to keep a perennially underperforming and also difficult off-field player in De Goey.

If trelor could be treated this way, and he is the prime mover of the club, then anybody of lesser stature at the club than him would be even more expandable. The window is not narrowing, it has shut and will be shut for sometimes. It's going to be self preservation mode for the players in 2021 until buckley and de goey is gone. When you screw up the de goey deal and fu** everyone over like that, there isn't going to be any quick fixes. Also, De Goey will still end up leaving after all this plus he has to face the assault charges.

In term of the losses, Trelor definitely a huge one as he is one of the main midfield player. THomas is very solid player and will be very solid contributor for hawthorn. Stephenson could very well be the biggest fish that collingwood have lost. He is atm inconsistent but he is a generational talent otherwise you don't become leading goal kicker for a club and get rise star award in your first year.
Click to expand...
I reckon you're on to something with the cultural environment and how it will be different/worse. Coupled with Buckley and his onthespectrum characteristics, they could unravel. News that King Kong Eddie is going brings me some Christmas cheer, but being Jewish, not that much.
 
queensberryrules said:
I reckon you're on to something with the cultural environment and how it will be different/worse. Coupled with Buckley and his onthespectrum characteristics, they could unravel. News that King Kong Eddie is going brings me some Christmas cheer, but being Jewish, not that much.
Click to expand...

If eddie goes, buckley isn't too far away. Same thing happened to us in the early 2000s. Greg Miller the club boss went, then the carey incident, then pagan left for carlton. The writing was on the wall for eddie as he lost control of the whole situation. Buckley according to rumour was portrayed in a very damning way. Is this true, we won't know for years but perception is as good as reality and the reality suggests the club mistreated the players because it was in a dire salary cap situaiton that needs to be resolved very quickly or else the afl will step in to do some real 'work'. If the afl steps in, they might find a few things the club doesn't want them to such as 3rd party deals to circumvent the cap for example. Buckley will be the next to go and pendlebury will retire next year becaues like it or not, this whole saga played out under his leadership and if i am a player or prospective player for collingwood, i would have second thoughts and work behidn the scene to prepare to be shafted. 5% less from the whole group is the difference between premierships and wooden spoons.
 
Window is slammed shut on the Buckley era. He won't win a flag there anytime soon and it's only stubbornness of himself or Eddie that will keep him there. They turfed a lot of quality over this offseason for some picks in the lottery draft that at best won't be at their peak for another 3-5 years anyway. They were already not in the best few teams and you don't get there by weakening your best 22 for a draft hand.
 

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2018 was a bit of an anomaly. Richmond were comfortably the league's best team, but went out in the Prelim and from there Collingwood should have gone on to win the flag with their gameplan and 22. So many players had or were having career best years, and they had a really unpredictable gamestyle that held up to finals footy.

I'm skeptical this squad will push again, and I just don't see the same opportunity presenting itself with the players they have available and the situation that has unfolded with their list over the past 12 months.

Probably still good enough to sneak into the 8, but I'm expecting a finish between 9-12 and potentially lower depending on the impact of the most recent trade period.
 
aussierulesrules said:
Depth has to be a big issue now, after losing regular best 22 types Treloar, Stephenson and Phillips and not replacing them with others with their quality/experience combo.

If they have almost no injuries they could still be a good team, but they've consistently had a lot of injuries in recent years, so if that trend continues they're in trouble.

If they don't land a really big fish in the next year or two they might be years off really contending again.

The messy/ugly way Treloar was treated will presumably make said "big fish" think twice though.
Click to expand...

Biggest loss is stephenson as his speed and dynamic abilities are considered generational talent........according to some. Let's the median and say he gets to 70% of his potential, he will still be a very good player. We are currently training him as an on-baller so his talents will be put to use for the whole game and not just be a highlight montage candidate. Very similar career path to simpkin in that in that he hit his straps when he was put into the middle where before, he was this inconsistent flashy small forward.

Mark my words, Brownlow medalist, club mvp and norm smith.
 
juss said:
Window is slammed shut on the Buckley era. He won't win a flag there anytime soon and it's only stubbornness of himself or Eddie that will keep him there. They turfed a lot of quality over this offseason for some picks in the lottery draft that at best won't be at their peak for another 3-5 years anyway. They were already not in the best few teams and you don't get there by weakening your best 22 for a draft hand.
Click to expand...

agree
 
Rad Roo said:
If eddie goes, buckley isn't too far away. Same thing happened to us in the early 2000s. Greg Miller the club boss went, then the carey incident, then pagan left for carlton. The writing was on the wall for eddie as he lost control of the whole situation. Buckley according to rumour was portrayed in a very damning way. Is this true, we won't know for years but perception is as good as reality and the reality suggests the club mistreated the players because it was in a dire salary cap situaiton that needs to be resolved very quickly or else the afl will step in to do some real 'work'. If the afl steps in, they might find a few things the club doesn't want them to such as 3rd party deals to circumvent the cap for example. Buckley will be the next to go and pendlebury will retire next year becaues like it or not, this whole saga played out under his leadership and if i am a player or prospective player for collingwood, i would have second thoughts and work behidn the scene to prepare to be shafted. 5% less from the whole group is the difference between premierships and wooden spoons.
Click to expand...
Buckley without his protector is vulnerable.
 
La Dispute said:
2018 was a bit of an anomaly. Richmond were comfortably the league's best team, but went out in the Prelim and from there Collingwood should have gone on to win the flag with their gameplan and 22. So many players had or were having career best years, and they had a really unpredictable gamestyle that held up to finals footy.

I'm skeptical this squad will push again, and I just don't see the same opportunity presenting itself with the players they have available and the situation that has unfolded with their list over the past 12 months.

Probably still good enough to sneak into the 8, but I'm expecting a finish between 9-12 and potentially lower depending on the impact of the most recent trade period.
Click to expand...
2018 for Collingwood does seem to be a anomaly. They finished top 4 and made the finals from defeating a top 8 team only once (Melbourne) during the Home and Away season. I can't recall a team managing to do that.

While Richmond were the best team for most of the season there were worrying signs that Richmond were dropping off form going into finals. On the last 3-4 games Richmond only managed to get across the line with a win against mediocre/poor opposition who put the cue in the rack for the season. However credit where credit is due for Collingwoods performance in the Preliminary final. That is probably the best the game Collingwood played for many years (The West Coast final this year would also be close).
 
Last edited:
queensberryrules said:
Buckley without his protector is vulnerable.
Click to expand...
Buckley will be gone at the end of 2021 and with eddie already leaving i think both Eddie & Buckley have seen the writing on the wall
Eddie just couldnt ring himself to sacking bucks and they will both leave hand in hand to live happily ever after.

Bucks i think will always have this 'Never won a premiership' tag haunt him as he is such driven person hat wanted this so much.
 
Frank Grimes said:
They finished top 4 and made the finals from defeating a top 8 team only once (Melbourne) during the Home and Away season.
Click to expand...

I've heard this argument before, sure because of our finish the year before we got the draw that reflected. However if you look closer at the wins and when, we were usually beating the form teams at the time.

I truly believe that year, Bucks, Buddha, and Longmuir extracted the maximum potential out of the list and just fell short, an exception to the rule . By looking at the previous two premiers you can sort of understand why they continued the flag tilt, on face value it was 'add Beams and it's ours' while forgetting 'Sides and Grundy have a good gf and we win'.

Rumor has it that Ed had his hand in the Beams failed trade, even after the warning signs coming from Beams himself. Desperation written all over it.

Of course Dogs and Tiges win it but not us. f*n typical.

Let's see if we can make it 7 decades of yuck! Why not! Nearly there!
 
Carringbush2010 said:
I've heard this argument before, sure because of our finish the year before we got the draw that reflected. However if you look closer at the wins and when, we were usually beating the form teams at the time.

I truly believe that year, Bucks, Buddha, and Longmuir extracted the maximum potential out of the list and just fell short, an exception to the rule . By looking at the previous two premiers you can sort of understand why they continued the flag tilt, on face value it was 'add Beams and it's ours' while forgetting 'Sides and Grundy have a good gf and we win'.

Rumor has it that Ed had his hand in the Beams failed trade, even after the warning signs coming from Beams himself. Desperation written all over it.

Of course Dogs and Tiges win it but not us. f*n typical.

Let's see if we can make it 7 decades of yuck! Why not! Nearly there!
Click to expand...

I am afraid Carringbush, it looks like being at least 5-6 seasons before Good Old Collingwood Forever are up there yet again losing Grand Finals. By the time that comes around you will be deliriously happy just to be making it, so that is something to look forward to. 😁
 
Meteoric Rise said:
I am afraid Carringbush, it looks like being at least 5-6 seasons before Good Old Collingwood Forever are up there yet again losing Grand Finals. By the time that comes around you will be deliriously happy just to be making it, so that is something to look forward to. 😁
Click to expand...

No I'm over it.
 
The list is fine, IMO it's not far off being the best we could assemble, i don't see us winning a flag without a lot of luck though, think we'll be top 6, we lack that Dustin type superstar (as 16 other clubs do), for us to be a real contender JDG has to have his break out year, i would also switch Moore forward, yeah he's gun KB but we need a gun KF more, Moore could kick 60+ IMO, continued improvement from Daicos would also be nice.

We should be thereabouts at the end, Treloar will be a big out but the others so so based on 2020 form.
 
Rad Roo said:
The loss of player is but the tip of the iceberg. The real damage is to the culture of the club in how the management (admin, coach) have treated players who have been there for half a decade. Trelor would send tremors around the club in that a player who just signed a 5 year extension was suddenly told a bunch of bullshit excuses why the club didn't want him..........in order to keep a perennially underperforming and also difficult off-field player in De Goey.

If trelor could be treated this way, and he is the prime mover of the club, then anybody of lesser stature at the club than him would be even more expandable. The window is not narrowing, it has shut and will be shut for sometimes. It's going to be self preservation mode for the players in 2021 until buckley and de goey is gone. When you screw up the de goey deal and fu** everyone over like that, there isn't going to be any quick fixes. Also, De Goey will still end up leaving after all this plus he has to face the assault charges.

In term of the losses, Trelor definitely a huge one as he is one of the main midfield player. THomas is very solid player and will be very solid contributor for hawthorn. Stephenson could very well be the biggest fish that collingwood have lost. He is atm inconsistent but he is a generational talent otherwise you don't become leading goal kicker for a club and get rise star award in your first year.
Click to expand...
Lol, i'd be more worried about your club if i were you mate, your best player Brown lost a child last year yeah? And you sacked him, your hypocracy knows no bounds.
 
THE_GUN said:
Buckley will be gone at the end of 2021 and with eddie already leaving i think both Eddie & Buckley have seen the writing on the wall
Eddie just couldnt ring himself to sacking bucks and they will both leave hand in hand to live happily ever after.

Bucks i think will always have this 'Never won a premiership' tag haunt him as he is such driven person hat wanted this so much.
Click to expand...
Why would Buckley be sacked? IMO even if we tailed off next year i still wouldn't sack him, yes i know you'll come back with 'but he hasn't won a flag' blah blah blah, but he went within a kick of winning one and lost a prelim by the same margin, finals again this year, Buckley is going nowhere.
 
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