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Universal Love Q&A with Tim Lawrence, Lachie's manager - chapter III

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From Tim -

Does the AFL use ambassador payments to lure talent in favour of some clubs over others?


Let me be clear from the start, Tayl0r , I have never dealt with a player who receives any form of 3rdparty payment from the AFL as an ‘Ambassador’, so everything I am about to say is pretty speculative and only based on what I have read or heard – probably like everyone else.

If we wind back to the birth of both GWS and the Gold Coast Suns, I am sure that there was some extra money from the AFL given to Izzy Falou and Karmichael Hunt to help lure them from the NRL. The opportunity to grab two of the biggest stars from the NRL, in the NRL home states of Qld and NSW, would have been too good an opportunity to miss.

And for what it’s worth, I personally had no problem with it.

There was a story that the AFL may have put a very large sum on the table to help get Falou to GWS – around $1m the story went. However, they week after he joined the Giants, it became back page news in the NSW and Qld media… it was suggested that this media coverage would have cost the AFL $19m to ‘buy’ so basically he paid for himself straight away.

Obviously neither worked out and in the case of Hunt, he left a pretty dirty stain on an impressionable group at the Suns… but that’s another story.

I don’t have an issue with the AFL putting a bit of extra money on the table for key players from these two ‘emerging’ markets to help promote the game. However, I guess for clarity we should ask “what extra work (outside of club commitments) do these guys do for the money?” – to make sure the moneys isn’t being used primarily as money outside of the TPP.

I think I read somewhere that the AFL would only give Tom Lynch Ambassador money in the region of $50k. Again, I read this somewhere so not sure how accurate it is. Then I remember reading somewhere else that Scott Pendlebury gets a fair whack of money from the AFL also. Whilst it could well be justified I do ask myself, “Why?”. I think the game is promoted and known about pretty well in Victoria isn’t it?

Having said that, if the AFL have any spare folding for any of my boys, I won’t be questioning it!!

So maybe it has happened in the past in the emerging states but to be honest, I would be surprised for a number of reasons if it was still done. I know it came from the GC Chairperson, Tony Cochrane, but he said in the last 10 years Auskick numbers in the region have risen from 25,000 to 250,000. I don’t have any interest in any other code, AFL is my love, so I do like hearing things like this.

I am all for the start-up clubs to keep continuing and the reality is the AFL will be bankrolling them for many years yet (again, I personally don’t have an issue with this) but, at some stage the other 16 clubs will quite rightly be questioning where the money is going.
 
Last edited:
Arcassius said:
From Tim -

Does the AFL use ambassador payments to lure talent in favour of some clubs over others?


Let me be clear from the start, Tayl0r , I have never dealt with a player who receives any form of 3rdparty payment from the AFL as an ‘Ambassador’, so everything I am about to say is pretty speculative and only based on what I have read or heard – probably like everyone else.

If we wind back to the birth of both GWS and the Gold Coast Suns, I am sure that there was some extra money from the AFL given to Izzy Falou and Karmichael Hunt to help lure them from the NRL. The opportunity to grab two of the biggest stars from the NRL, in the NRL home states of Qld and NSW, would have been too good an opportunity to miss.

And for what it’s worth, I personally had no problem with it.

There was a story that the AFL may have put a very large sum on the table to help get Falou to GWS – around $1m the story went. However, they week after he joined the Giants, it became back page news in the NSW and Qld media… it was suggested that this media coverage would have cost the AFL $19m to ‘buy’ so basically he paid for himself straight away.

Obviously neither worked out and in the case of Hunt, he left a pretty dirty stain on an impressionable group at the Suns… but that’s another story.

I don’t have an issue with the AFL putting a bit of extra money on the table for key players from these two ‘emerging’ markets to help promote the game. However, I guess for clarity we should ask “what extra work (outside of club commitments) do these guys do for the money?” – to make sure the moneys isn’t being used primarily as money outside of the TPP.

I think I read somewhere that the AFL would only give Tom Lynch Ambassador money in the region of $50k. Again, I read this somewhere so not sure how accurate it is. Then I remember reading somewhere else that Scott Pendlebury gets a fair whack of money from the AFL also. Whilst it could well be justified I do ask myself, “Why?”. I think the game is promoted and known about pretty well in Victoria isn’t it?

Having said that, if the AFL have any spare folding for any of my boys, I won’t be questioning it!!

So maybe it has happened in the past in the emerging states but to be honest, I would be surprised for a number of reasons if it was still done. I know it came from the GC Chairperson, Tony Cochrane, but he said in the last 10 years Auskick numbers in the region have risen from 25,000 to 250,000. I don’t have any interest in any other code, AFL is my love, so I do like hearing things like this.

I am all for the start-up clubs to keep continuing and the reality is the AFL will be bankrolling them for many years yet (again, I personally don’t have an issue with this) but, at some stage the other 16 clubs will quite rightly be questioning where the money is going.
Click to expand...

It's the prospect of Nic Nat being poached on big dollars to one of the expansion clubs (read: GWS) with the promise of big cash outside the cap next year as a free agent that has my interest peaked.
 
Hi Tim,

I know it's late but hopefully you can answer. With debate recently about the backlash players may receive from a club if they advise they are leaving during the season, what is your stance on the issue? Have you had any experience in this situation and obviously seen the toll it has on a player keeping it close to their chest and how it affects them with the constant pressure coming from the club and media in general?
 

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From Tim -

It's the prospect of Nic Nat being poached on big dollars to one of the expansion clubs (read: GWS) with the promise of big cash outside the cap next year as a free agent that has my interest peaked.


I think the notion that there is endless 3rd party or money outside of the cap is very much incorrect.

Yes, there is some money outside of the cap for sure, however, it is all so strictly controlled and monitored by the AFL it’s not like there is this big bag of cash in the corner of the room waiting for someone to stuff their hands into it willy nilly.

It’s be a bit pointless having a Salary Cap if this was the case.

Do the Giants need another ruckman? Yeah probably. Would they like Nic Nat? Yeah probably.

But if the AFL supposedly aren’t going to ‘help’ in any way with supposed Ambassador money keep Tom Lynch at the Suns, I can’t really see them suddenly throwing out money 12 months later to GWS who do actually have a strong list.

Probably more to the point, you would think GWS have a pretty full TPP so there would have to be a fair bit of bloodletting done to get NN’s pay packet in and under their cap.
 
From Tim -

Hi Tim, I know it's late but hopefully you can answer. With debate recently about the backlash players may receive from a club if they advise they are leaving during the season, what is your stance on the issue? Have you had any experience in this situation and obviously seen the toll it has on a player keeping it close to their chest and how it affects them with the constant pressure coming from the club and media in general?


I change from week to week on this one, Cameron_K . I often wonder what it would be like if I had a player in this situation, so to answer part of your question I haven’t personally experienced it. What I would strongly suspect, however, is it could be a burden for some players and weigh heavily on their mind, affecting both their private life and their on field performances. Others seem to be able to push on unaffected; Paddy Dangerfield never took a backwards step when he was at Adelaide and no doubt thinking heavily about heading home.

The supporter in me say’s “No, I don’t want to hear about it mid-season if a player is leaving my club like they do in the NRL”.

The manager in me says, “We should be a bit more mature about these things, much like they are in the NRL”. Ha ha mature and NRL. Not words I often associate together in the same sentence. The other word would be ‘progressive’.

See? I’m conflicted and internally hypocritical!

I would like to think that one day, if a player was going to leave and they wanted to make it public, they could without fear of backlash from supporters or the club themselves. See this is where some clubs are hypocritical also. Happy to put players up for trade or off load and sack players if it’s under their terms but if a player wants to leave under their own terms well, oh no, that’s akin to treason.

See so when people harp on about ‘player loyalty’ or the supposed lack of, they seem to forget this. Clubs need to be cold blooded and ruthless when it comes to list management. We understand that, it’s the only way they can keep regenerating and getting better. So people need to understand that players – equally – need to protect themselves just like the clubs do.

Having said that, if a player wants to keep it quiet for whatever reason that should be their choice also.

We as supporters need to understand that whilst we scream for clarity and transparency with certain issues, it needs to be understood that we may not always like what we hear because of this.

In the US there is a ‘player first, team second’ mentality. In Australia we still have a ‘club first/ player second’ mentality which I kind of like but it has its flaws also especially when we continue to model ourselves on how the Americans run sport.
 
Hey all - It's probably about time to get any final questions in before we close this chapter :) Please if you have any curlers that you'd love answered - ask away while he's still around and happy to respond!

Whether it be about clubs, players, management, life, or covfefe.

To Tim -

How much insight do you get as a player manager into what happens at club level. Do your players tend to talk to you about what's happening between closed doors, or is it a managed relationship where they keep things to themselves or tend to talk to close family. Do you get to find out what the game plan or strategies are for a club the coming season? The areas they are working on?

Are there things you can share about Freo in the past (or other clubs) and what sorts of things we were looking to do in terms of game plan - what worked and didn't work?

Where is the game heading, and what sort of players do you think will be the most desirable for teams in the future - the athlete, the natural footballer, the large bodied mid, the monster forward, the small nugget, the pinpoint kicker, the handball expert?

Have you seen the Fyfe BOB video? What are your thoughts on what he had to say? Do you think these kinds of honest insights are an outlier or part of a trend towards breaking the 4th wall and players connecting with fans about their lives? How seriously do players take their brand and legacy.

Will Neale be doing a tell all interview any time soon? :p Can we organise a fireside chat with Neale at a local pub - drinks on us (we'll behave we promise)

How much leeway do players have in what they can and can't say publically?

What holes do you see in our list at the moment, and which players in the league do you think we should target to fill those gaps?

:p
 
Arcassius said:
Will Neale be doing a tell all interview any time soon? :p Can we organise a fireside chat with Neale at a local pub - drinks on us (we'll behave we promise)
Click to expand...
Just on this, if we did arrange to interview Lachie in a bar with video, would we need FFC to tick it off first?
 
Tayl0r said:
Just on this, if we did arrange to interview Lachie in a bar with video, would we need FFC to tick it off first?
Click to expand...

Probably. I don't see it happening myself, but if you don't ask ... :p

It couldn't be any worse than the post-game media conferences. At least we'd ask intelligent questions. I'd be secretly hoping that Neale answers at least one question with - "You're quite brilliant estibador "
 
Fireside chat with Lachie, that would be fantastic in the off season :thumbsu:

Tim, I know there can be no one size fits all answer to this. I'm curious about playing timelines, we have plenty of opinions about "playing da yoof" particularly re: Lyon, as well as players being past it these days, before they're scarcely out of nappies (yeah, I'm getting older and shout at the clouds for playing over my lawn).

With young recruits, what timeline is there for effectiveness from the player? Are clubs bringing players on effectively, quicker than before, do talls really need years and years to develop etc. What are the downsides to the rush to get a twig earning their salary against tonka tough big blokes. I had seen some murmuring about raising the minimum drafting age, if you think it's likely to happen, what impact would that have on recruits and clubs?

On the flip side of the coin, the seasoned veterans. Careers are over in a heartbeat these days compared to the seasoned old silverbacked gorillas that used to play. Is it a forgone conclusion that they're over the hill at 30 (notwithstanding the odd Sandilands an others hanging around a few more years) or can anything change that would allow a longer career (where injuries don't force the issue).
 
Arcassius said:
Probably. I don't see it happening myself, but if you don't ask ... :p

It couldn't be any worse than the post-game media conferences. At least we'd ask intelligent questions. I'd be secretly hoping that Neale answers at least one question with - "You're quite brilliant estibador "
Click to expand...
Neroli Meadows would be on board..
 
Hi Tim,
Thanks for doing this again.
Your answers are very insightful on some of the inner working teams/players.

Just curious on a few things

1) is there any financial disincentives when players gets banned or suspended from matches? Match fees? It’s seems to be the common punishments team dish out (or MRP) to errand players. Just seems odd to me they gets a “free vacation” as a “punishment” :)

2) can and do teams promise X number of games to players to lure them as part of transfer negotiation? I see it as a huge incentive for young players that have yet to get games in the first team.

3) you may have already answered this previously. Why do players nominate a preferred club when they ask to be traded? I understand that players want a say in workplace, but as a fan, I seems to me to limit the team’s position in negotiation.

4) do players talk to others players from a team he may potentially be transferred to? Do clubs allow it? Would you allow it as manager?

Thanks again for your time.
 

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Hey Tim,

I always wondered about this when it came to player management eg: Jerry McGuire styles.. so my question is a pretty simple one:

Do you have a client that you would consider your favourite and have you ever had a client say "SHOW ME THE MONEY"?

Cheers for doing this by the way.
 
Awesome thread.. could have saved myself the best part of a decade of watching garbage footy shows just by reading these 5 pages :thumbsu:
 
From Tim -

Hi all,

I just wanted to let you know that I haven’t forgotten you and will answer all of your questions in coming days.

I’ve just spent the last few days in Geelong and Melbourne with our accountant, having meetings, catching up with the boys to do their tax and a bit of financial planning, watching State U18, AFL, VFL and Geelong Football League game - in fact 5 games in a 48 hour period!

So, I’m back in SA tonight, 2 flat out days at the AHCSA office then Wednesday night up to Darwin for a week - get some much needed sunshine, watch your mob on Saturday night and not doubt, catch up with Lach!

Don’t do your heads in with yesterday’s game. Things happen and when you have a young side, they go up and down all the time.

Brisbane have been doing it also, it’s just yesterday their ‘up’ coincided with Freo’s ‘down’.

Yesterday’s result really has no impact in the longer run. One game never does.
 

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Arcassius said:
FreoMonocle , this is possibly one of the best questions I have ever been asked.
Click to expand...

Pfffft .......Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?

This is the best question ever asked to anyone at anytime, anywhere on the internet.
 
From Tim -

Just on this, if we did arrange to interview Lachie in a bar with video, would we need FFC to tick it off first?



It’s an interesting one Tayl0r . Generally we would advise the club of any media or marketing appearance the players do. I do this even when not totally necessary, to be respectful.

The club is pretty good with not standing in the way of things.... it would be interesting to see their view on a player speaking at a BigFooty forum and how they would look at it. I’m not suggesting they would have any issues with you guys but I guess there is always the risk of some nut bag making a dick of themselves at a public Q&A but let’s face it, they are walking down the streets anyway aren’t they?

So, I probably would let them know but I don’t think it would be an issue really. Having said that, I wouldn’t want to be presumptuous enough to preempt their response.

Anyway, if Lach is going to be there, don’t think I’m not joining in as well!

But before everyone gets too excited, he has a lot of plans this off season and I’m a big one for the boys getting away from any footy stuff and getting a break.

Free beer though and I’ll be there..... And then I can be the nut bag making a dick of themself at the public Q&A ;)
 
From Tim -

Tim, I know there can be no one size fits all answer to this. I'm curious about playing timelines, we have plenty of opinions about "playing da yoof" particularly re: Lyon, as well as players being past it these days, before they're scarcely out of nappies (yeah, I'm getting older and shout at the clouds for playing over my lawn).


With young recruits, what timeline is there for effectiveness from the player? Are clubs bringing players on effectively, quicker than before, do talls really need years and years to develop etc. What are the downsides to the rush to get a twig earning their salary against tonka tough big blokes. I had seen some murmuring about raising the minimum drafting age, if you think it's likely to happen, what impact would that have on recruits and clubs?



On the flip side of the coin, the seasoned veterans. Careers are over in a heartbeat these days compared to the seasoned old silverbacked gorillas that used to play. Is it a forgone conclusion that they're over the hill at 30 (notwithstanding the odd Sandilands an others hanging around a few more years) or can anything change that would allow a longer career (where injuries don't force the issue).



Thanks FreoMonocle for the question and yes, you’re right. There is no ‘one size’ fits all with this answer and that is because, quite simply, when dealing with human beings, no two are exactly the same.

It’s the same with young AFL players.

In a very (somewhat) abbreviated version, I’ll try and explain how something you may have heard talked about before - list profiles - and how it translates into both ‘playing da yoof’ and the veterans you talk about.

Firstly, the most important and encompassing caveat I need to put here is that every player needs to have the talent required to play at AFL level regardless of age or experience. Older players need to be able to physically keep up with the game which a lot of the time, is why they retire. Skills are still there, just the body slows up and can’t keep pace and sometimes injuries, especially of the soft tissue kind, start to kick in. Younger players need most, if not all, the required AFL attributes.

When clubs create a trade/draft strategy over a period of time - often around 5 years - they are trying to crystal ball who will get there and who may not still be there. They could try and factor in age, development of high end draft picks etc and how that may affect other players (in this 5 year window) who currently playing their role. That type of thing. As an example, a couple of years ago, Freo knew they needed to get a developing ruckman (which became Darcy) and potentially they may need a back up ruckman (possibly they go for one this year or maybe Apeness is their answer?) because they knew Sandi was going to be gone within the next couple of years. Anyway, a tick to Brad Lloyd on that.

But they also look at the age profile. See, there has been a lot of research done on past premiership sides (and consistent top 4 sides) and the are correlations in regards to a certain number of players within age groups and corresponding experience (games played) within these successful sides. So clubs model their own lists - going forward - on this profiling.

Now, FreoMonocle , whilst you may get exasperated with ‘da yoof’ playing at times, you need to always be churning a few through. Even the best sides each year, have debutants. See, whilst some young players are pretty AFL ready from the word go (Brayshaw, Cerra) others need sometime in the WAFL to increase their talent and fitness base (Giro, Crowden) but at the end of the day, the greatest playing lessons a young player can have (when they are ready) is playing at the highest level.

See if you don’t play kids, they don’t get experience and at some stage the list manager is going to go “shit, we have a bunch of kids coming through who are now 20-22 and they have not enough AFL experience” meaning there is now lack of depth within the team and a reliance of older, slowly getting older players. So the coach suddenly starts playing them but they tend to struggle because they have been playing WAFL for 2-4 years and whilst they are WAFL hardened, WAFL ain’t AFL is it. So you need some balance... yep, no doubt the top 4 sides may have a slightly older profile when they hit that fabled ‘premiership’ window, they still need to be blooding younger kids for the future. So it’s a balance of different ages and experiences throughout the list... and of course a balance of players who play certain roles goes on top of this.

If you play a list for the ‘now’ the future will never come. If you play the list for the future, you ain’t gonna win games, supporters leave, players get scarred from ongoing massive losses and coaches get sacked. No one ever wins and if you play for the now, at some stage there is going to be a bloody big fall from grace.

You Freo supporters have recently seen it. Freo was hell bent on top 4 finishes and trying to squeeze the last out of the list, culminating in the 2013 GF and finishing at the top (if not, near to it) in the years after it. We could all see the ‘fall’ was coming and it did, a couple of years ago. There appeared to be deficiencies in the list when it came to types of players (key forwards, key backs, outside run) and there was also far too many older players on borrowed time.

So the fall came. The regeneration started and the older players retired or moved on and now your still climbing your way out of it.... which is fine, it’s just where your at. Could the list have been better balanced so the fall wasn’t as great? Possibly but even doing that differs from club to club and you honestly can’t compare apples with apples on this. Sydney and Geelong are masters at doing it; they are constantly blooding kids and rebuilding the list whilst still still playing finals regularly but that has taken many years of planning and it goes back probably 10+ years to when they started it.

You need groups of players that fit age profiles so you have a group of reliable, experienced, leaders at any given time, especially when the older leaders retire and the new ones come up the ranks.

Hopefully you can see why times can be called on veterans and yes, while there always exceptions on either side of the age bracket, 30seems to be the magical age where players get old and close to their ‘best by’ date. They become shorter term propositions, contract wise because, they can drop off really quickly with the pace of today’s game.

Is there anything that can extend a career? I’m not sure. I think the biggest facet still is wear and tear on the body and whilst, as you mentioned, injuries can sped this up, different roles could also. For instance, an inside midfielder who gets smashed physically each week probably won’t go on for as long as a speedy outside runner who doesn’t get belted constantly.

As I said, it’s hard to be definitive with this answer but I hope that answers your question somewhat?

The current style of footy will finish careers earlier than usual I think (in time) compared to the footy we may start seeing with again next year or in the near future anyway.
 
From Tim -

Hi Tim, Thanks for doing this again. Your answers are very insightful on some of the inner working teams/players. Just curious on a few things

1) is there any financial disincentives when players gets banned or suspended from matches? Match fees? It’s seems to be the common punishments team dish out (or MRP) to errand players. Just seems odd to me they gets a “free vacation” as a “punishment”

2) can and do teams promise X number of games to players to lure them as part of transfer negotiation? I see it as a huge incentive for young players that have yet to get games in the first team.

3) you may have already answered this previously. Why do players nominate a preferred club when they ask to be traded? I understand that players want a say in workplace, but as a fan, I seems to me to limit the team’s position in negotiation.

4) do players talk to others players from a team he may potentially be transferred to? Do clubs allow it? Would you allow it as manager?


Thanks, yoong , it’s my pleasure and as I’ve said before, I enjoy spending time here with you all

  1. There are a few things to consider when a player is suspended. If a players contract involves match payments, they obviously don’t earn these whilst suspended. I won’t touch on what these figures would be but we all know that they don’t run around for peanuts. If they have a contract to receive that ‘guaranteed’ money (no match payments) yep, this won’t affect this area if their contract as they don’t get a percentage of this docked so they do get off a bit more lightly financially. However, in both cases, nearly all contracts involve bonuses for milestone numbers of matches in a season, B&F finishes (hard to get votes when your not playing) and in some cases that Top 10 B&F finish can involve one off financial reward and sometimes it can also bring extra money into their base contract the following year or if a player plays ‘X’ numbers of game in a year, it could trigger an extension on their contract by another year or two. All of these are most certainly impacted by a suspension - especially if it’s for a few weeks. Imagine getting a 1 week suspension that prohibits you from reaching a game (by 1 game) losing the opportunity to get another contract?

I think also, in regards to getting a ‘holiday’ the players are in for far more rigorous training sessions than when they aren’t playing; including on match days. I mean they are flogged and flogged physically to make sure they don’t lose the match fitness that only a game can bring. They certainly don’t get to go on a holiday to Broome or Bali when they are not playing!

Finally, keep in mind players who miss a reasonable number of games may need to come back through the reserves meaning those financial implications stated above continue while they are playing at the lower level.

  1. In a nutshell, no, players aren’t guaranteed games if they switch clubs. Well I guess a club could but they would be stupid if they did. Sure, the sell might be that there is a role for them to play more footy at their new club (and if they are top shelf talent they will play without a guarantee won’t they) but no one can guarantee games. It’s a performance based business.

Keep this in mind too. If a young player isn’t playing at a club, it means they have deficiencies in their game. It doesn’t matter where you go to next, if you haven’t fixed those deficiencies, at some stage you will be on the outer at that new club also. Running to an easier option has a limited life.

  1. Yeah I have answered this elsewhere in this thread. Basically, they ask to be traded to a particular club (or Location) for exactly the same reasons you or I may chose to move from our current employer. Find my answer and it will explain my views on it - which I understand many of you may disagree with!

  2. Yeah it certainly happens and to be honest, if one of my players had a close mate at another club and we were doing some research on a possible move, to me it makes total sense to get some reliable insight from them as part of an information gathering process. If the player is contacted by a player from another club and they don’t have a relationship with them, to me it depends on the circumstances. By and large I am ok with it but if the player being contacted is still pretty young and not as (AFL) worldly, I may have some concerns. Players need to be able to get information to make balanced, informed decisions and if they feel pressure from someone, this balanced view point can often be skewed which may bring an error in judgement.
However, I think overall it’s wise to do everything firstly through the players manager. I have had a player under contract be contacted by a leading player at a rival club whilst still in season. That same club has had their coach spit the chewy publicly when his own players are contacted by rival clubs under contract. Different rules for different fools, as they say. Actually I’ve never heard anyone say that.... because I just made it up then. Feel free to use it, however.
 
From Tim -

Hey Tim - any thoughts on covfefe?

No, no I don’t have any thoughts on it, Randomizor

Tell you what, if you can give me a detailed explanation as to what it actually means, I’ll give you my thoughts on it. Deal?
 

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Universal Love Q&A with Tim Lawrence, Lachie's manager - chapter III

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