Quarter of a century without Fitzroy: Is the AFL better or worse off?

[madmug]

If you could look past the characterisation of your club as a faceless corporate construct, which it absolutely was upon purchase of a VFL licence with no history, no players and no culture, perhaps you'd see what I'm actually talking about. Clearly you didn't grow up having any allegiance or affiliation to a WAFL club and have resorted to childish ad hominem attacks accordingly.

There's a reason importing existing WAFL and SANFL sides would have been my preference that extend past their established history at that point. The fact that they're rooted in their respective communities for starters.

Having a suburban history is fine. Except its also quite a restraint on growth.

Its no surprise that the smallest VFL clubs remain the smallest AFL clubs. !2 VFL clubs in a national competition would have been completely unsustainable.

The AFL provides a lifejacket for VFL clubs that had some hope of improving. Being a national league & promoting the game at a national level is a secondary consideration.

 

[footyfan1978]

Culturally the sport is worse off but the product and business operated as the AFL has dealt with it and moved on as a sporting/entertainment industry first and sport second.
Culturally we have lost a lot to expand the league from 12 teams to 18 and soon 19. The leagues that were the next best around the nation have been basically absorbed into it to simply be feeder leagues only now to the product that is the AFL but they used to have good followings too.
SANFL, WAFL and VFA were culturally strong footy leagues that had good followings next to the premier league of the VFL that has become the AFL. That price to pay culturally has been too high imo. We've added corporate franchise clubs like Eagles, Crows and the rest but lost having the strong tie to football clubs that had a rich history built up through communities such as Fitzroy, Norwood, Sturt, Glenelg, East Fremantle, Port Melbourne, Preston, West Perth, Coburg, Subiaco, Prahran, West Adelaide etc. which if you in your 30's or 20's or teenage years means nothing to you as you probably only known footy through the AFL but those of us that grew up with the sport have a strong following in the traditional footy states have seen everything that made the sport exciting from grassroots to the elite level has been cannablised and taken away too much we wonder if the long term cost will come back to bite hard later in the future. The overall level of joy and fun of following from the strong state leagues, reserves teams and VFA to premier league that grew up with is actually not there to enjoy anymore in the same way I fell in love with the sport. If your club you followed in the league was Fitzroy it obviously would be felt even stronger loss.

I think the AFL will go on but I fear the best times of the sport itself have probably been experienced already and we have a lesser version of the sport now as a result. But it run more like a sporting/entertainment business so that will continue on and still be enjoyed by generations to come.
They can't miss what they never known so it won't matter in the end.
The world is in a constant state of flux.
Change is constant. Not always for the better but change is a reality each and everyday.

 

[EBERT THE KING]

My dad was die hard Fitzroy. Has never really followed the game since they were removed. The merger was also so poorly done, it was an absolute disgrace. He just ended up following local footy where myself and my brothers played. He is lost to the game, as were 1000s of other Fitzroy supporters.

It should have been a North Melbourne/Fitzroy merger, which a lot of Fitzroy people had got their heads around. The whole notion that the other clubs didn't want this, because North were already strong, came back to bite them as the Brisbane Lions ran rampant in the early 2000s, as a direct result of the merger.

The administration of the game was at its absolute lowest in the mid 90s.

The fact that the AFL is now completely propping up GCS and GWS, in markets where they will never ever be the number 1 sport, is a true slap in the face for Fitzroy supporters. Even getting 1% of the money burned to prop up the Suns and Giants would have been enough to save Fitzroy.

In regards to where they would stand in the Melbourne landscape at the moment, who knows, but they would certainly have a market. If the Dogs can gwt 50k members, Fitzroy would have been fine.

I can guarantee you now they would have no issue with player retention if their training base was at Brunswick Street oval. North Fitzroy is arguably the best suburb in Melbourne for location and lifestyle.

Id say its a neutral result. No better off, but obviously the strategic view was to expand heavily into northern states.

 

[Roylion]

Even getting 1% of the money burned to prop up the Suns and Giants would have been enough to save Fitzroy.

Somewhat ironically, given his current position as the Brisbane Lions CEO, Greg Swann was one of the auditors who was brought in to recover Fitzroy's secured creditor's debt in 1996. Swann publicly stated in August 2014 that Fitzroy could have 'easily been retained' in the AFL competition had there been the will by the AFL to do so.

 

[Kwality]

If you could look past the characterisation of your club as a faceless corporate construct, which it absolutely was upon purchase of a VFL licence with no history, no players and no culture, perhaps you'd see what I'm actually talking about. Clearly you didn't grow up having any allegiance or affiliation to a WAFL club and have resorted to childish ad hominem attacks accordingly.

There's a reason importing existing WAFL and SANFL sides would have been my preference that extend past their established history at that point. The fact that they're rooted in their respective communities for starters.

My WAFL club Subiaco was winning flags in the era in question. Subi never was, or should have been, a vehicle into a national comp.
The sheer absurdity of your thought bubble is expecting Dogs fans to support North or vice versa, or D's & Hawks.

Your so called faceless corporate constructs are integral part of WA footy including pumping $millions into our game in contrast the 1930s model so beloved by your good self.
Perhaps you could take a look at the membership model of the faceless structures to inform you. Perhaps google the Scott brothers whingeing about the passion of WA crowds.

As for my support for Subi I point you to 1973 when the club broke a 49 year hoodoo. I stood next to my father that day when he saw his first flag at 56 years of age.

Your knowledge of our game ..... ad hominen.

 

[Kwality]

Culturally the sport is worse off but the product and business operated as the AFL has dealt with it and moved on as a sporting/entertainment industry first and sport second.
Culturally we have lost a lot to expand the league from 12 teams to 18 and soon 19. The leagues that were the next best around the nation have been basically absorbed into it to simply be feeder leagues only now to the product that is the AFL but they used to have good followings too.
SANFL, WAFL and VFA were culturally strong footy leagues that had good followings next to the premier league of the VFL that has become the AFL. That price to pay culturally has been too high imo. We've added corporate franchise clubs like Eagles, Crows and the rest but lost having the strong tie to football clubs that had a rich history built up through communities such as Fitzroy, Norwood, Sturt, Glenelg, East Fremantle, Port Melbourne, Preston, West Perth, Coburg, Subiaco, Prahran, West Adelaide etc. which if you in your 30's or 20's or teenage years means nothing to you as you probably only known footy through the AFL but those of us that grew up with the sport have a strong following in the traditional footy states have seen everything that made the sport exciting from grassroots to the elite level has been canablised and taken away too much we wonder if the long term cost will come back to bite hard later in the future. The overall level of joy and fun of following from the strong state leagues, reserves teams and VFA to premier league that grew up with is actually not there to enjoy anymore in the same way I fell in love with the sport. If your club you followed in the league was Fitzroy it obviously would be felt even stronger loss.

I think the AFL will go on but I fear the best times of the sport itself have probably been experienced already and we have a lesser version of the sport now as a result. But it run more like a sporting/entertainment business so that will continue on and still be enjoyed by generations to come.
They can't miss what they never known so it won't matter in the end.
The world is in a constant state of flux.
Change is constant. Not always for the better but change is a reality each and everyday.

Culturally think indigenous football outside Melbourne - how insular was that culture. Fans deluding themselves senior football was VFL footy.

I agree with the yearning for clubs league, 2nds, 3rds structures that the WAFC / WAFL comp/Subi retain today (see Liam Baker or Sam Menegola) - you are right to question where the Victorian structure went to & why.
The WAFC retaining the 3rds structure compared with the elite Vic competition.

Yes there is plenty to learn, good & bad.

 

[Simche]

My WAFL club Subiaco was winning flags in the era in question. Subi never was, or should have been, a vehicle into a national comp.
The sheer absurdity of your thought bubble is expecting Dogs fans to support North or vice versa, or D's & Hawks.

Your so called faceless corporate constructs are integral part of WA footy including pumping $millions into our game in contrast the 1930s model so beloved by your good self.
Perhaps you could take a look at the membership model of the faceless structures to inform you. Perhaps google the Scott brothers whingeing about the passion of WA crowds.

As for my support for Subi I point you to 1973 when the club broke a 49 year hoodoo. I stood next to my father that day when he saw his first flag at 56 years of age.

Your knowledge of our game ..... ad hominen.

Yet that is exactly what was expected when Fitzroy were merged with Brisbane, South Melbourne sent to Sydney etc. Supporters were expected to transfer their allegiances or things would change intergenerationally.

You seem to be incredibly fired up over the suggestion that perhaps endorsing single corporate entity entrants from outside the VFL as opposed to established clubs would have been a better way of going despite the fact I clearly qualified my post by saying the money was all wrong. Its moot, the competition evolved in a different way.

Using that to criticse my 'knowledge of our game' is pathetically thin skinned however.

 

[Kwality]

Yet that is exactly what was expected when Fitzroy were merged with Brisbane, South Melbourne sent to Sydney etc. Supporters were expected to transfer their allegiances or things would change intergenerationally.

You seem to be incredibly fired up over the suggestion that perhaps endorsing single corporate entity entrants from outside the VFL as opposed to established clubs would have been a better way of going despite the fact I clearly qualified my post by saying the money was all wrong. Its moot, the competition evolved in a different way.

Using that to criticse my 'knowledge of our game' is pathetically thin skinned however.

ALL WA fans grew to adopt the national comp, including accepting their WAFL clubs would feed that comp & changes were necessary. See the Eagles membership growth in the 90s as an indication of local resistance/acceptance of those changes.
The WA model has been successful both off & on the ground. Its a 1990s model, not the 1930 version.
SA has a different model again (members buying back their clubs from the SANFL).

Hopefully Tas has the support of the State Government to ensure local footy is not another plaything for the AFL administration like the non heartland States.

 

[Gavin Excell]

Culturally the sport is worse off but the product and business operated as the AFL has dealt with it and moved on as a sporting/entertainment industry first and sport second.
Culturally we have lost a lot to expand the league from 12 teams to 18 and soon 19. The leagues that were the next best around the nation have been basically absorbed into it to simply be feeder leagues only now to the product that is the AFL but they used to have good followings too.
SANFL, WAFL and VFA were culturally strong footy leagues that had good followings next to the premier league of the VFL that has become the AFL. That price to pay culturally has been too high imo. We've added corporate franchise clubs like Eagles, Crows and the rest but lost having the strong tie to football clubs that had a rich history built up through communities such as Fitzroy, Norwood, Sturt, Glenelg, East Fremantle, Port Melbourne, Preston, West Perth, Coburg, Subiaco, Prahran, West Adelaide etc. which if you in your 30's or 20's or teenage years means nothing to you as you probably only known footy through the AFL but those of us that grew up with the sport have a strong following in the traditional footy states have seen everything that made the sport exciting from grassroots to the elite level has been canablised and taken away too much we wonder if the long term cost will come back to bite hard later in the future. The overall level of joy and fun of following from the strong state leagues, reserves teams and VFA to premier league that grew up with is actually not there to enjoy anymore in the same way I fell in love with the sport. If your club you followed in the league was Fitzroy it obviously would be felt even stronger loss.

I think the AFL will go on but I fear the best times of the sport itself have probably been experienced already and we have a lesser version of the sport now as a result. But it run more like a sporting/entertainment business so that will continue on and still be enjoyed by generations to come.
They can't miss what they never known so it won't matter in the end.
The world is in a constant state of flux.
Change is constant. Not always for the better but change is a reality each and everyday.

Given the way sport has been harnessed as a revenue product across world last 20-30 years, its probably unrealistic to think the smaller boutique leagues could have continued in the same way.

 

[Hoops]

Having a suburban history is fine. Except its also quite a restraint on growth.

Its no surprise that the smallest VFL clubs remain the smallest AFL clubs. !2 VFL clubs in a national competition would have been completely unsustainable.

The AFL provides a lifejacket for VFL clubs that had some hope of improving. Being a national league & promoting the game at a national level is a secondary consideration.

Gold Coast a GWS are smaller than any Melbourne club and Port Adelaide is not much bigger than a few of them

 

[MSB ROYS]

Simple answer is no.

 

[Kwality]

Gold Coast a GWS are smaller than any Melbourne club and Port Adelaide is not much bigger than a few of them

Its an 'expansion' & by design, not demand.

Unlike the oversupply in the Melbourne market driving the sale of games, relevant to the demise of Fitzroy.

 

[Coach_Required]

To be honest we haven't missed them.

However, would have preferred it if it was Carlton who got turfed lol

 

[Bunk Moreland]

Undoubtedly worse off. The killing of a club is the darkest chapter in the league's history, an unforgivable act by the AFL, Oakley and Collins.

They could have been retained in the league.

If we were so totally in need of a merger, then it should have been Fitzroy and North - I understand both clubs wanted it, and it feels like it would've been much more a merger with a true combination of two clubs' history and a continual presence where they should be - in Melbourne. "Merging" them with Brisbane is like some kind of sick joke... Fitzroy had no place in Brisbane.

I think it was pathetic short-term thinking by the clubs that killed the North-Fitzroy merger, being scared of a super team. Pretty funny when you look at what Brisbane became anyway.

 

[madmug]

Gold Coast a GWS are smaller than any Melbourne club and Port Adelaide is not much bigger than a few of them

GC, GWS & PA represent the nationalisation of the game. As do Sydney, Adelaide, Brisbane, WCE, Fremantle & hopefully soon to be Tasmania. Then perhaps Canberra or WA3.

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

Probably true, but it has come at a high price. The game is also only ‘sorta‘ NationaL, being distorted by too many Melbourne based Clubs and insufficient in other States.

Fitzroy paid a terrible price as did my mob, South Melbourne. Both the SA and WA comps are pale shadows of what they once were. The VFA here has also gone, swallowed somehow by the gaping maw of the AFL. Less about the National comp and more about AFL, country footy has also paid a high price.

Sticking to 18 teams but a National redistribution is the way to go. As well as Tassie, both WA and SA would easily accommodate a third team. It would also maximise use of existing infrastructure at Optus and AO.

This means reducing the Melbourne based teams by three. The candidates are obvious.

Strange post

You start by bemoaning the tragic impact of culling a club - then call for 3 more to to be culled??

 

[Osho]

To be honest we haven't missed them.

However, would have preferred it if it was Carlton who got turfed lol

ROAR!

 

[Cubs2Lions]

ROAR!

 

[footyfan1978]

Given the way sport has been harnessed as a revenue product across world last 20-30 years, its probably unrealistic to think the smaller boutique leagues could have continued in the same way.

I'm fully aware they would not continue in the same way. Hence why I talk about change is constant.

The problem for the sport, (not the AFL product) is the wonderful things that made the sport so great in first place has been eaten away at the fabric of that greatness of the sport to turn it more into a product of an entertaining/sport industry which is the thinking the AFL work with now and have for decades.
The people running the premier league and now the sport could have approached it in a way where they put the sport first but they have taken their eye off the ball as people running it are business first, sport second which is the real shame of it all. I think they just gone too much the product way to the detriment of the sport long term.

The previous wonderful and good followed leagues such as the WAFL, SANFL and VFA could have continued more along the lines of the VFA where they had part of the weekend closed off for them to still be followed properly and not just be feeder leagues only. The AFL could have done this all in a different way that was better for the sport itself rather than cannablise all these wonderful leagues too. I would have loved if it had gone a different direction where AFL was run Thursday night to Saturday night for the elite level and the AFL round over and Sunday was free to focus on the state leagues. Footy fans could follow both that love the game deeply. I used to follow our reserves team, senior team, play junior footy Sunday morning and then follow the VFA Sunday arvo. That is essentially what I grew up seeing in Victoria until the encroachment into Sunday by the league with Sydney Swans every second Sunday and then Eagles and Bears later in the 80's. We could have had WAFL, SANFL and VFA and all the state leagues play their round on Sunday but nope this never came into their thinking at all for the sport itself. The AFL admin took it all and cannibalised everything because it was run like a business product first and not sport first. We are where we are because of this. All the richness of what those leagues once were is basically gone and now just feeder leagues for the product and the sport has lost a lot culturally because of this. The AFL product lives on and will continue to be well run as a business in the sporting/entertaining industry but it slowly is just becoming another sport in the vast industry and lose the uniqueness that made the game so great originally.

 

[footyfan1978]

Strange post

You start by bemoaning the tragic impact of culling a club - then call for 3 more to to be culled??

That just his personality. He can still make his serious point and joke at same time of clubs he not fond of.

 

[Grand Uncle Horace]

Strange post

You start by bemoaning the tragic impact of culling a club - then call for 3 more to to be culled??

pop your reading glasses on

I said it was ‘probably worth it’

 

[footyfan1978]

Gold Coast a GWS are smaller than any Melbourne club and Port Adelaide is not much bigger than a few of them

I think of Port about same size as North. But unlike North they have potential to keep growing because they only one of two franchise clubs in Adelaide so they only competing with attracting South Aussie kids to their club there with one other club. North were one of 12 clubs in Melbourne originally and struggle to grow their supporter base over the generations, sadly, so they probably were less than 1/12th support here and similar issues with Fitzroy and Footscray in the transitional period of league through the 80's and 90's to expand to be national base than state based league.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

The number of Melbourne teams had to reduce, but the way it was conducted was ugly, because it was essentially the Bears taking anything of value from Fitzroy. If the idea of a true merger of equals with North was really that unpalatable to the rest of the league, they should have just relegated Fitzroy to the VFA/VFL while absorbing their debts, allowing them to continue on with some dignity left. Maybe the AFL could have done the same thing for Gold Coast's expansion too, when another Melbourne club fell on hard times.

 

[Roylion]

they should have just relegated Fitzroy to the VFA/VFL

The AFL had no power to do that.

 

[footyfan1978]

The number of Melbourne teams had to reduce, but the way it was conducted was ugly, because it was essentially the Bears taking anything of value from Fitzroy. If the idea of a true merger of equals with North was really that unpalatable to the rest of the league, they should have just relegated Fitzroy to the VFA/VFL while absorbing their debts, allowing them to continue on with some dignity left

You are forgetting two important things. One, as another poster pointed out, AFL have no power to so called relegate another club and two, they also essentially killed of the VFA lifeblood of Sunday footy to be VFA domain.

If they AFL had not eaten into and eventually cannibalise the VFA to a feeder league it could have been the state league here to run as part of the whole footy weekend with VFA the Sunday domain and first part of weekend all for the elite AFL level. That then may have made it an attractive dignity option for Fitzroy to return to the VFA by choice as a club to play alongside the old Port Melbourne and Williamstown clubs as a valued part of the whole footy landscape each weekend here. But by 1996 the AFL had essentially let Fitzroy get in such a mess and the Sunday niche VFA all killed off that it not even realistic thinking of what going on at the time in footy.