Preview R9: Changes vs. Richmond

[Linekers Ears]

Play Max as the small defender and find another attacking HB to complement Milera, Keane and Worrell.

Id love them to put a big offer in front of Coleman and see if they could pry him loose of Brisbane.

Are we officially binning Oscar Ryan?
I have no direct knowledge about his standard of play but I seem to recall he was some sort of defensive star

 

[1990crow]

We need Thilthorpe to find some form. If he's fit he needs to play and kick 5.

 

[Kane McGoodwin]

We need Thilthorpe to find some form. If he's fit he needs to play and kick 5.

More an issue of getting him fit.

Unfortunately with Fog out & now Tex, we haven't been able to manage him.

Was not meant to play the Freo game, but with Fog a late out, we were forced to.

 

[Mutineer]

Are we officially binning Oscar Ryan?
I have no direct knowledge about his standard of play but I seem to recall he was some sort of defensive star

Looked pretty impressive in his first season. but not the same player this year so far. Oscar's been wearing a pretty heavy strapping on a leg this season not sure what the issue is or if it's just precautionary?

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

We need Thilthorpe to find some form. If he's fit he needs to play and kick 5.

Interesting that we ended up rucking him for a bit on Friday night.

We didn't need to. I'm sure it was because he was finding it difficult to get into the game and having his backside kicked by Aliir. Something to get him going.

I'm wondering if he needed those little stints in ruck to get him involved, get his hands dirty. Permanent forward is for the likes of Ben King who are one trick ponies (albeit an extremely good trick).

Thilthorpe's motor and work around the ground is his point of difference. He should be an up and back forward, closer in style to a Nick Riewoldt than a stay at home clunker like Tom Lynch (the Richmond one).

Parking him as our long down the line resident target has limited his impact and just made him a 2nd / 3rd defender up magnet.

 

[1990crow]

Interesting that we ended up rucking him for a bit on Friday night.

We didn't need to. I'm sure it was because he was finding it difficult to get into the game and having his backside kicked by Aliir. Something to get him going.

I'm wondering if he needed those little stints in ruck to get him involved, get his hands dirty. Permanent forward is for the likes of Ben King who are one trick ponies (albeit an extremely good trick).

Thilthorpe's motor and work around the ground is his point of difference. He should be an up and back forward, closer in style to a Nick Riewoldt than a stay at home clunker like Tom Lynch (the Richmond one).

Parking him as our long down the line resident target has limited his impact and just made him a 2nd / 3rd defender up magnet.

I think he should be both. CHF roaming when ball is in general play, deep forward when there's a stoppage forward of centre.

 

[CrowBloke]

First, there was "drop Berry" from Scorpus.
Now this:

You forgot Curtin, was a passenger last night.

Underdone, maybe.
Not AFL-match-fit.
Rusty, for sure. He was cherry-ripe after pre-season then copped the knee injury.

However, there was enough there of his best on Friday as well as the composed handball under immense time-pressure to Cook** for the fabulous winner to see that Curtin is necessary to our best-23.

**plenty of blokes would've panicked and handballed at Cook, stopping his forward run or, worse, behind him.

 

[Hodgy]

out tex, butts, mc andrew (needs a rest), bond
in fog/maley, n murray , rob, dawson

and hopefully ah chee getting close to replacing taylor, if bond out move cumming back to hbf with cook and curtin on wing for coming weeks

cumming in the last few mins is often deep in defence spoiling high incoming ball- he times his leaps well. its an important attribute. clearly been disappointing overall but this is something i hadnt realised until watching the replay

Sensible changes. Cumming has actually been playing a bit of half back in the last few weeks, and I think a mixture of Soligo, Curtin and Ah Chee will creep in to that wing. One other plus from the weekend is that T Murray emerging as a forward option allows us to use him as fwd/ruck while Tillthorpe is carrying his injuries, and therefore it clears a s further spot on the bench to help with midfield rotations.

One thought, with Noah Balta playing both forward and back, and Nick Murray playing forward in the 2’s, maybe Nick can come in and play on Balta all day, and we don’t bring in FOG/Maley this week. With Borlase and Worrell back and Tillthorpe and T Murray forward, Nick following Balta and a combo of Curtin/Dawson as our 3rd tall forward, we would have the extra bench spot which could potentially be Ah Chee or Dowling/Edwards.

I love the idea of resting McAndrew, I have a feeling ROB can still play an important role for us at times this year and this seems the perfect opportunity to have a look at him with the new rules.

 

[Cromulant]

Yep. He spent most of the match fumbling and turning it over.

Couldn't care less about the medal

Happy to revisit this when we next play a quality side, against Hawthorn in a few weeks

Its hard to accept a player you dont rate has a very good game isnt it ??

 

[119others]

Sensible changes. Cumming has actually been playing a bit of half back in the last few weeks, and I think a mixture of Soligo, Curtin and Ah Chee will creep in to that wing. One other plus from the weekend is that T Murray emerging as a forward option allows us to use him as fwd/ruck while Tillthorpe is carrying his injuries, and therefore it clears a s further spot on the bench to help with midfield rotations.

One thought, with Noah Balta playing both forward and back, and Nick Murray playing forward in the 2’s, maybe Nick can come in and play on Balta all day, and we don’t bring in FOG/Maley this week. With Borlase and Worrell back and Tillthorpe and T Murray forward, Nick following Balta and a combo of Curtin/Dawson as our 3rd tall forward, we would have the extra bench spot which could potentially be Ah Chee or Dowling/Edwards.

I love the idea of resting McAndrew, I have a feeling ROB can still play an important role for us at times this year and this seems the perfect opportunity to have a look at him with the new rules.

Nice suggestions man, well done

 

[CrowBloke]

Both he and ANB had enough class to impact late, but aside from that.

If the bolded is true, they weren't "passengers".
Passengers do sfa.

To be fair to Curtin, stuck deep forward with our delivery.....

Yep, fair point .
+
he was underdone, not AFL-match-fit (which you only get by playing AFL) and returning from injury (gets between the ears a bit).

 

[Cromulant]

If the bolded is true, they weren't "passengers".
Passengers do sfa.

Yep, fair point .
+
he was underdone, not AFL-match-fit (which you only get by playing AFL) and returning from injury (gets between the ears a bit).

Curtin in particular was pretty ordinary most of the night.

But class is class

 

[Scorpus]

Its hard to accept a player you dont rate has a very good game isnt it ??

Not at all, a couple of weeks ago I thought Berry had a pretty good game against Carlton

Excellent
Rachele - dominant
Cook - elite hands in the wet
Dawson - found some form

Good
Berry - wet weather is his type of football
Milera - better when he isn't our only rebound player
Keays - destroyed Carlton in a brief period again
Nankervis - like what he brings with ball use and intercepts
Neal-Bullen - smart player
Umpires - they gave us everything
Ollie Hollands - played very well for us
Cerra - also did his absolute best to get us the win
Hinge doing more than Jones despite getting injured

Bad
Thilthorpe - 1.4 is a terrible return from those shots
Michalanney - stinker, hasn't found any form this year
Cumming - stinker, was he still unwell?
Soligo still seems unfit

 

[cmndstab]

Curtin in particular was pretty ordinary most of the night.

But class is class

Curtin's first three quarters were very poor. But his final quarter was quality, he had more of the ball in Q4 than the rest of the game combined. I'm not sure whether that was a positional thing, or just a case of him working back into form after a long time out.

In any event, given he is in the middle of his return to the side, I'd be happy to back him in for next week based on that last quarter alone.

 

[spenze]

First, there was "drop Berry" from Scorpus.
Now this:

Underdone, maybe.
Not AFL-match-fit.
Rusty, for sure. He was cherry-ripe after pre-season then copped the knee injury.

However, there was enough there of his best on Friday as well as the composed handball under immense time-pressure to Cook** for the fabulous winner to see that Curtin is necessary to our best-23.

**plenty of blokes would've panicked and handballed at Cook, stopping his forward run or, worse, behind him.

You do realise both of these things can be true?

Curtin was brought back early, everyone said it, nobody expected a 20 possie game. There was no way he was going to slot in and do a great job but will be better for the run (same as he would have been had he played magoos). That all being the case does not detract from the part of the play of his last possession being balls out excellent stuff (contest the mark, get up, follow play, take possession and find the outside runner with a path to goal...cream always rises to the top.)

 

[Pugsley]

Lieutenant Dan, your legs, you’ve got no legs.

 

[Scorpus]

I'm late on this, 8 pages behind, but:

Most of the match?
That's nonsensical hyperbole. Cmon, Scorpus, fess up --- you're just stirring the pot, yeah?

Berry: 29 disposals, 19 tackles, four clearances and 704 metres gained.
Those numbers speak for themselves as retention-worthy to any reasonable footy observer, but you.

Berry had much more positive impact than negative. On tackles alone, he stopped PA progressing with the ball 19 times (13 more than any other Crow).

Oddly enough, I agree with this. It's about positive game impact for the team, of which Berry had plenty, not 'Medal' votes.

While every Showdown Medal voter included Berry in their votes (notably, Kornes had Wines as his third choice, overlooking Aliir altogether), I thought either Milera or Aliir would have won the Medal
BUT
drop Berry?

Ridiculous, unless you want the next Selection night melts in here to look like this:
View attachment 2600608 View attachment 2600594


9 turnovers out of 29 possessions = a good/bad ratio of 20:9.
I'll take it. Any Coach would.

In every game, every player makes mistakes/fumbles/turnovers which are "an active hindrance".
"Active" maybe, but not deliberate.

Also not necessarily a skill error.
More often than not, Berry fumbled under pressure in tight. Everybody does.
Likewise, turnovers can be caused by opponent pressure which are very different from being in the clear and kicking/handballing directly to an opponent (eg many more Crows than Berry played KICK IT TO ALIIR).

An error-free game is impossible, even for the likes of Naicos, the Bont, Neal etc. <== and I am not saying Berry is in their class.
If fumbles/turnovers were the only criteria for retention, the whole team would be dropped.

It's not even that controversial of a call if people are being completely honest about the quality of our midfield

Dawson didn't play. He is our best player and best midfielder.

Now if we want to bring him back into the midfield rotation and we don't want to shuffle someone else to another role, one of the midfielders needs to make way.

Of the players that got midfield time, no one is going to suggest dropping Rankine or Rachele. Do we want both playing permanent forward? I doubt it.

The others are Berry, Soligo and Peatling. Which of those players are in our best midfield? How would you rank them?

I would say in peak form Soligo is clearly the best of that group. He needs to play midfield right now to build back up. Then you've got a call between Berry and Peatling. I think across this season and last season Peatling has been the better performer.

Some would say just play Dawson not in the midfield. Anyone that says that is kidding themselves about the quality of our midfield. It's not good enough for him to play half back or wherever.

Should we rotate Berry/Soligo/Peatling somewhere else? None of them have a second position really. As it stands, Rachele and Rankine get no midfield time together and Curtin didn't play there at all either.

I mean we've all sat here saying our midfield sucks all year, and yet no one wants to make any changes to the players who are actually playing in there. If everyone is happy with the status quo, we can expect to be completely found out again the next time we go up against a quality team

 

[1990crow]

It's not even that controversial of a call if people are being completely honest about the quality of our midfield

Dawson didn't play. He is our best player and best midfielder.

Now if we want to bring him back into the midfield rotation and we don't want to shuffle someone else to another role, one of the midfielders needs to make way.

Of the players that got midfield time, no one is going to suggest dropping Rankine or Rachele. Do we want both playing permanent forward? I doubt it.

The others are Berry, Soligo and Peatling. Which of those players are in our best midfield? How would you rank them?

I would say in peak form Soligo is clearly the best of that group. He needs to play midfield right now to build back up. Then you've got a call between Berry and Peatling. I think across this season and last season Peatling has been the better performer.

Some would say just play Dawson not in the midfield. Anyone that says that is kidding themselves about the quality of our midfield. It's not good enough for him to play half back or wherever.

Should we rotate Berry/Soligo/Peatling somewhere else? None of them have a second position really. As it stands, Rachele and Rankine get no midfield time together and Curtin didn't play there at all either.

I mean we've all sat here saying our midfield sucks all year, and yet no one wants to make any changes to the players who are actually playing in there. If everyone is happy with the status quo, we can expect to be completely found out again the next time we go up against a quality team

That's how I see it. Curtin should also be our first touch mid when he's ready.
Plus in we bring in Zac Bailey over the off-season, Draper develops someone has to make way.

Berry is doing a job, but the goal to win a flag and he's not good enough to stand up against our competitors - we all saw what happened against Newcombe.
He fumbles too much, gets led to the ball far too easily, turns it over under minimal pressure ie lacks class.

We were up by 21 points all the momentum of Friday night. Berry fumbles the ball and Port get a goal out of it. Could've cost us the match. A better player in that scenario we probably go on to win by 5 goals.

 

[CrowBloke]

Next summer, get him to walk around handling a football 24/7

Or, now.

 

[1990crow]

Or, now.

Given how far he is into his career i don't think it's something he will able to fix.

 

[Scorpus]

That's how I see it. Curtin should also be our first touch mid when he's ready.
Plus in we bring in Zac Bailey over the off-season, Draper develops someone has to make way.

Berry is doing a job, but the goal to win a flag and he's not good enough to stand up against our competitors - we all saw what happened against Newcombe.
He fumbles too much, gets led to the ball far too easily, turns it over under minimal pressure ie lacks class.

We were up by 21 points all the momentum of Friday night. Berry fumbles the ball and Port get a goal out of it. Could've cost us the match. A better player in that scenario we probably go on to win by 5 goals.

I don't even see how Curtin gets much time in there to be honest.

At any one time you can maybe play four midfielders around the ball, with maybe 1-2 rotations to the bench or the forward line. I don't see many clubs using more than six guys in there.

The first two main choice players are obvious, Dawson and Rankine, with Rachele taking a rotation. That leaves two other spots, and a bench spot max. Maybe less.

We have to then fit in Soligo, Peatling, Berry, Draper, Curtin and if we recruit him Bailey. How does that work? It doesn't.

You can't fit six more players into that midfield.

Ultimately we will have to pick out highest quality players, put versatile players into other roles they're good at, and the weakest guys don't play.

 

[Rory Walkerfield]

I don't even see how Curtin gets much time in there to be honest.

At any one time you can maybe play four midfielders around the ball, with maybe 1-2 rotations to the bench or the forward line. I don't see many clubs using more than six guys in there.

The first two main choice players are obvious, Dawson and Rankine, with Rachele taking a rotation. That leaves two other spots, and a bench spot max. Maybe less.

We have to then fit in Soligo, Peatling, Berry, Draper, Curtin and if we recruit him Bailey. How does that work? It doesn't.

You can't fit six more players into that midfield.

Ultimately we will have to pick out highest quality players, put versatile players into other roles they're good at, and the weakest guys don't play.

Curtin has to go into the middle. Simple. Kid will be a star midfielder. Others can work around him.

 

[Cromulant]

Curtin has to go into the middle. Simple. Kid will be a star midfielder. Others can work around him.

He doesnt HAVE to be a star centre square mid, although we all assume he will be.

 

[Hodgy]

It's not even that controversial of a call if people are being completely honest about the quality of our midfield

Dawson didn't play. He is our best player and best midfielder.

Now if we want to bring him back into the midfield rotation and we don't want to shuffle someone else to another role, one of the midfielders needs to make way.

Of the players that got midfield time, no one is going to suggest dropping Rankine or Rachele. Do we want both playing permanent forward? I doubt it.

The others are Berry, Soligo and Peatling. Which of those players are in our best midfield? How would you rank them?

I would say in peak form Soligo is clearly the best of that group. He needs to play midfield right now to build back up. Then you've got a call between Berry and Peatling. I think across this season and last season Peatling has been the better performer.

Some would say just play Dawson not in the midfield. Anyone that says that is kidding themselves about the quality of our midfield. It's not good enough for him to play half back or wherever.

Should we rotate Berry/Soligo/Peatling somewhere else? None of them have a second position really. As it stands, Rachele and Rankine get no midfield time together and Curtin didn't play there at all either.

I mean we've all sat here saying our midfield sucks all year, and yet no one wants to make any changes to the players who are actually playing in there. If everyone is happy with the status quo, we can expect to be completely found out again the next time we go up against a quality team

You’re correct that it’s not that controversial, and that we do have a problem with certain midfielders hurting our rotations because of lack of positional flexibility, however I would argue against dropping Berry. Firstly I wouldnt include Soligo in that group because when he’s fully fit and firing he can be a very damaging wingman or small forward, however Berry, Peatling and especially Edwards really can’t play anywhere except midfield. This causes real issues in executing rotations, which was perfectly demonstrated by Melbourne having Oliver and Viney not able to play elsewhere. Them being out has led to Pickett and Sparrow being able to play a lot more in the midfield, and wow how good do they both look.

I think all teams can afford 1 player that only plays mid, however 2, or 3 as we saw last week, is just going to see our best players being wasted in a forward line only getting 30-40 inside 50’s. For me Berry is that player as he has improved so much from last year. He’s always been good defensively but the leg drive from stoppage is a huge addition and well worth sticking with. Therefore to me it’s Peatling that is either under pressure, or who needs to develop his wing/forward game like Soligo.

I still think the Brisbane model of having 8-10 quality midfield/forward players rotating is the ideal in modern footy. To that end, if we can bring in Zac Bailey and Tom Sparrow as free agents then we can have a genuine A grade midfield.
Dawson, Curtin, Rankine, Rachelle, Zac Bailey, Tom Sparrow, Soligo, Draper, Berry (possibly Neale) and Peatling would stack up against anyone.

 

[hugecannon]

Oscar Ryan?

Would be happy to give him a block of 3-4 games to see what he has to offer.

He’d balance our defence better than Bond IMO, at least until Hinge is back.