Analysis Richmond has become home of the list-clogger, writes David King

Remove this Banner Ad

mopsy

Premiership Player
Jan 1, 2005
3,856
6,483
Other Teams
RICHMOND
Lol i think he got an awful lot right as well as getting plenty wrong.

Imo tiger supporters in the main want it both ways. The vast majority at the time were howling like lunatics for blood recruiting had been poor and list management was poor as well. It took an external review a challenge to the board and a lot of changes to finally get in place the formula for a flag.

I think where blokes like King and the majority of supporters got it wrong including myself was we didnt realise we had Enough good players on the list.

Down back we had Rance, Astbury to help him Plus Grimes has become a superb defender but prior to 2017 struggled mainly throuhgh injury, Vlastuin was there and has always shown more than enough as a defender.
Dusty Cotchin Deledio it was a start JR fwd and now Lynch.

I still dont believe we have the deepest or most talent laden team but we do have enough very good players, who are spread about enough role players who play to a very good team plan
The type of player we now target has changed from the time of that article as well. no longer targeting has beens but players with genuine talent like prestia, Nankervis Lynch even Caddy to a less degree.
We even changed tack on what type of battlers we target going for blokes who were dominating state leagues but had never been given a go at afl level or had been given little time and starved of opportunities.The list of list cloggers we had even in Hardwicks time is staggering.

Make no mistake our footy dept had failed us badly imo. recruiting and list management was so bad it was the catch cry of the challengers to the board. footy first.
So many had complained for decades about how poorly we were set up and resourced in key areas and it wasnt until 2016 that anything in the footy dept was truly addressed.Poor performers moved on or shuffled sideways good people with a clue moved in.

The question i ask here is, who among you are now big enough to admit they agreed with much of what King had to say att. without a doubt most of you id say.At the end of 2016 there was not many who were not baying for blood.and rightly so.
If the truth be known and People like Gale and Hardwick were honest they would admit the 2017 flag was a bolt out of the blue and far exceeded every expectation.

I hope the lessons that had been learnt the hard way for 34 yrs are never forgotten.
 

Meteoric Rise

Club Legend
Feb 4, 2008
1,574
5,088
Melbourne
AFL Club
Richmond
Lol i think he got an awful lot right as well as getting plenty wrong.

Imo tiger supporters in the main want it both ways. The vast majority at the time were howling like lunatics for blood recruiting had been poor and list management was poor as well. It took an external review a challenge to the board and a lot of changes to finally get in place the formula for a flag.

I think where blokes like King and the majority of supporters got it wrong including myself was we didnt realise we had Enough good players on the list.

Down back we had Rance, Astbury to help him Plus Grimes has become a superb defender but prior to 2017 struggled mainly throuhgh injury, Vlastuin was there and has always shown more than enough as a defender.
Dusty Cotchin Deledio it was a start JR fwd and now Lynch.

I still dont believe we have the deepest or most talent laden team but we do have enough very good players, who are spread about enough role players who play to a very good team plan
The type of player we now target has changed from the time of that article as well. no longer targeting has beens but players with genuine talent like prestia, Nankervis Lynch even Caddy to a less degree.
We even changed tack on what type of battlers we target going for blokes who were dominating state leagues but had never been given a go at afl level or had been given little time and starved of opportunities.The list of list cloggers we had even in Hardwicks time is staggering.

Make no mistake our footy dept had failed us badly imo. recruiting and list management was so bad it was the catch cry of the challengers to the board. footy first.
So many had complained for decades about how poorly we were set up and resourced in key areas and it wasnt until 2016 that anything in the footy dept was truly addressed.Poor performers moved on or shuffled sideways good people with a clue moved in.

The question i ask here is, who among you are now big enough to admit they agreed with much of what King had to say att. without a doubt most of you id say.At the end of 2016 there was not many who were not baying for blood.and rightly so.
If the truth be known and People like Gale and Hardwick were honest they would admit the 2017 flag was a bolt out of the blue and far exceeded every expectation.

I hope the lessons that had been learnt the hard way for 34 yrs are never forgotten.
Mopsy you are missing one big and crucial point here. By the time Kingy was saying Richmond was the home of the list clogger, we had already clearly fixed any issue we had in that area, and several years prior at that. So it was an absolutely idiotic assessment by King and I was stunned at what I was hearing from him at the time, as it did not make any sense whatsoever.

Let’s say look at it from 2009 onwards to get a good feel for what Richmond did.

2009 - 2015(remembering King makes the comments in 2016) we took in the first 2 rounds of the draft the following players:

2009 Martin Griffiths Astbury
2010 Conca Batchelor
2011 B Ellis Elton
2012 Vlastuin Mcintosh McBean
2013 Lennon
2014 C Ellis Menadue
2015 Rioli

So we took 14 first and second round picks in 7 drafts there. From those picks we get:

1 x superstar in Martin
4x really good players B Ellis Vlastuin Rioli Astbury
4 x reasonable to good servants Griffiths Batchelor Mcintosh Conca(some unlucky with injury as happens)

5 x players who just didn’t make the grade Menadue, Elton, McBean, Lennon, C Ellis.

So it was not like we were trading those picks away for mature talent that clogged our list. We actually did ok from all those picks on the whole, not brilliantly, maybe just below par expectation for AFL drafting. But the club was trying to draft quality young players.

_______________________________________________

So then let’s look at the lower rounds of the draft and rookie, pre-season drafts and trades throughout the period 09-15 inclusive:

09 We bring in Grimes amongst 12 other players, and I think almost all, if not all of them were young players, not recycled. We didn’t shoot the lights out but if you throw 13 hail marys and get Dylan Grimes you are not complaining too much.

10 Houli among 7 other unexposed players who didn’t make it. Not sure any of them were list cloggers though.

11 8 failures though I think of them only Addam Maric was recycled.

12 Petterd Lonergan Stephenson were recycled exposed players without much upside among 6 selections. This is where we did take a turn down the list clogger path.

13 Gordon Lloyd Banfield Miles Thomas. We got half decent service and compensation from Lloyd and Miles but by and large here we were well on the list clogger track and doubling down.

14 We took 8 picks after the first two rounds. Drummond was probably unlucky with his two ACL’s, was potentially a great pick in the 50’s. But Butler Short Lambert Castagna Soldo from 6 other new picks was getting right off the recycled path and straight onto the path to the top almost 2 full years prior to King’s stupid and poorly thought out remarks. We were now taking players with tricks up their sleeves, less safe but lots of potential upside. Lambert probably wasn’t that type of pick but has nevertheless worked out brilliantly, not something King was even close to identifying.

15 Markov Broad Moore Chol Marcon. Marcon aside - and why wouldn’t you draft Lambert’s mate after seeing what Lambert was made of up close? - the other 4 all had weapons and potential upside. This was almost a year before King’s stupid assessment.

At this point, I was saying wtf is this fool on about? We have clearly taken a wrong turn in just 2012-2013, recognised it, and more than corrected it in the last 2 drafts. And didn’t we correct it. I am not silly enough to say I thought in 2016 we would win 2 of the next 3 flags and have a strong chance in the 4th year. But it wasn’t difficult at all to see we had finished 5th 8th 5th then 13th, retained our core, started drafting a few years earlier to fix shortcomings and had plenty to look forward to. I actually thought during 2016 our natural trajectory and list profile was taking us into consistent top 6 finishes. Nothing else made sense to me. And when our trading/free agency went from:

Maric, Chaplin, Knights, Hampson, Moore, Yarran(clearly a suitable player for us on known facts,) Miles etc etc, none of which I blame the club for at all, in fact Maric has been a gift that has kept giving, to

Townsend, Prestia Nankervis Caddy and later Lynch.

Well King wasn’t to know the last layer would be added but regardless, his comments and his assessment stunk. It was already demonstrably wrong at the time he said it, and at least 2 years out of date. His assessment displayed the singular ability to look no more than about 3 weeks into the past and not into the future at all. That takes some doing.

No less than 26 of the players on our list in 2016 PLAYED AT AFL LEVEL in 2020. This doesn’t include subsequent flag players Grigg, Rance, and GWS finals player Deledio or injury inhibited players like Drummond, Griffiths or other natural retirements who had served the club well on the whole, Maric, Chaplin, Morris. So 34 players there in total.

How many AFL lists would not contain about 10-12 players who fit outside those criteria:

Still getting AFL games 4 years later
Nearing retirement been useful servants
would be on AFL lists bar injury problems
future finals players including premierships

???

This was not a clogged list, nor anything like it. It was a list that just needed a bit of tidying up, and this process had already commenced long before King’s comments were made. I expect King to be oblivious to things like that Mopsy, because he is a dead set goose. But I am disappointed in you, you should know better, especially with the benefit of hindsight 4 years later.
 

Cactus_

@understandarama & understandarama.com
Feb 18, 2017
6,614
12,613
Melbourne, Inner Western Suburbs
AFL Club
Richmond
A bunch of those “list cloggers” contributed to our current success even though they’ve moved on and don’t get to enjoy it.

If you try to rebuild by just bringing lots of talent kids and playing them from day one whether they’re ready or not, you’re unlikely to build a successful culture.

You need some older players, mature bodies, good trainers, good characters, even if you know they’re not likely to be part of the premiership.

Means the talented kids have to fight for games not just get gifted them, can be dropped if they need to be, and can develop in a side that is halfway competitive.
 

Log in to remove this ad.

Meteoric Rise

Club Legend
Feb 4, 2008
1,574
5,088
Melbourne
AFL Club
Richmond
Lol i think he got an awful lot right as well as getting plenty wrong.

Imo tiger supporters in the main want it both ways. The vast majority at the time were howling like lunatics for blood recruiting had been poor and list management was poor as well. It took an external review a challenge to the board and a lot of changes to finally get in place the formula for a flag.

I think where blokes like King and the majority of supporters got it wrong including myself was we didnt realise we had Enough good players on the list.

Down back we had Rance, Astbury to help him Plus Grimes has become a superb defender but prior to 2017 struggled mainly throuhgh injury, Vlastuin was there and has always shown more than enough as a defender.
Dusty Cotchin Deledio it was a start JR fwd and now Lynch.

I still dont believe we have the deepest or most talent laden team but we do have enough very good players, who are spread about enough role players who play to a very good team plan
The type of player we now target has changed from the time of that article as well. no longer targeting has beens but players with genuine talent like prestia, Nankervis Lynch even Caddy to a less degree.
We even changed tack on what type of battlers we target going for blokes who were dominating state leagues but had never been given a go at afl level or had been given little time and starved of opportunities.The list of list cloggers we had even in Hardwicks time is staggering.

Make no mistake our footy dept had failed us badly imo. recruiting and list management was so bad it was the catch cry of the challengers to the board. footy first.
So many had complained for decades about how poorly we were set up and resourced in key areas and it wasnt until 2016 that anything in the footy dept was truly addressed.Poor performers moved on or shuffled sideways good people with a clue moved in.

The question i ask here is, who among you are now big enough to admit they agreed with much of what King had to say att. without a doubt most of you id say.At the end of 2016 there was not many who were not baying for blood.and rightly so.
If the truth be known and People like Gale and Hardwick were honest they would admit the 2017 flag was a bolt out of the blue and far exceeded every expectation.

I hope the lessons that had been learnt the hard way for 34 yrs are never forgotten.
How could you possibly write that highlighted sentence Mopsy? Hardwick was pilloried in late 2016 for saying there is nothing wrong with our list, and he thought it was in the best shape in his time at the club.

He cannot have been lying, that was obviously his honest belief. And he was shown to not only be correct, but spectacularly correct. So I cannot see how you can include Hardwick as an example of someone who would have been surprised by our success in 2017.
 

Grin

Brownlow Medallist
Feb 8, 2006
14,400
16,328
Port Adelaide
AFL Club
Richmond
I thought the second article was actually quite good and had a lot of truth. The benefit of hindsight is all well and good, but the last sentence was prophetic:

As for Hardwick, he effectively starts his second phase of coaching and, despite the scepticism, there is no rule that a coach gets only one crack at building a list.
 

McTiger

Senior List
Sep 24, 2018
152
536
AFL Club
Richmond
Little Nicky - Bomber have a better forward line

View attachment 965741
Before the 2017 finals series I recall Dal Santo saying (on Fox Footy) that Richmond would be out of the finals in straight sets. The best game I ever saw Dal Santo play was when he was with St.Kilda and was dropped to the seconds ... he played a ripping game against Coburg Tigers on the Sunday afternoon. Such a big-game player!
In 2018, each time I heard Brent Harvey make his tips on Friday morning radio he tipped Richmond occasionally but it was always with great reluctance. I think there is something drilled into North Melbourne players that Richmond is no good.
 
Oct 20, 2006
20
32
AFL Club
Richmond
Lol i think he got an awful lot right as well as getting plenty wrong.

Imo tiger supporters in the main want it both ways. The vast majority at the time were howling like lunatics for blood recruiting had been poor and list management was poor as well. It took an external review a challenge to the board and a lot of changes to finally get in place the formula for a flag.

I think where blokes like King and the majority of supporters got it wrong including myself was we didnt realise we had Enough good players on the list.

Down back we had Rance, Astbury to help him Plus Grimes has become a superb defender but prior to 2017 struggled mainly throuhgh injury, Vlastuin was there and has always shown more than enough as a defender.
Dusty Cotchin Deledio it was a start JR fwd and now Lynch.

I still dont believe we have the deepest or most talent laden team but we do have enough very good players, who are spread about enough role players who play to a very good team plan
The type of player we now target has changed from the time of that article as well. no longer targeting has beens but players with genuine talent like prestia, Nankervis Lynch even Caddy to a less degree.
We even changed tack on what type of battlers we target going for blokes who were dominating state leagues but had never been given a go at afl level or had been given little time and starved of opportunities.The list of list cloggers we had even in Hardwicks time is staggering.

Make no mistake our footy dept had failed us badly imo. recruiting and list management was so bad it was the catch cry of the challengers to the board. footy first.
So many had complained for decades about how poorly we were set up and resourced in key areas and it wasnt until 2016 that anything in the footy dept was truly addressed.Poor performers moved on or shuffled sideways good people with a clue moved in.

The question i ask here is, who among you are now big enough to admit they agreed with much of what King had to say att. without a doubt most of you id say.At the end of 2016 there was not many who were not baying for blood.and rightly so.
If the truth be known and People like Gale and Hardwick were honest they would admit the 2017 flag was a bolt out of the blue and far exceeded every expectation.

I hope the lessons that had been learnt the hard way for 34 yrs are never forgotten.
Yep I wanted Hadwick gone.
 

Meteoric Rise

Club Legend
Feb 4, 2008
1,574
5,088
Melbourne
AFL Club
Richmond
I thought the second article was actually quite good and had a lot of truth. The benefit of hindsight is all well and good, but the last sentence was prophetic:

As for Hardwick, he effectively starts his second phase of coaching and, despite the scepticism, there is no rule that a coach gets only one crack at building a list.
I recall Robbo’s article at the time and I thought it was even handed and fair and largely well thought out. He was correct in one crucial area, Hardwick can coach he said, and with great conviction, when most other pundits with a public voice were questioning his coaching ability.

He was also correct in identifying the players we could afford to unload. Deledio, Vickery and Griffiths. For Vickery we effectively got Shai Bolton as compensation. For Deledio, and pick 52(eventually used at pick 54 by Lions on Jackson Payne) we got Coleman-Jones and Balta.

So full marks to Robbo for getting those things spot on.

Robbo was wrong in suggesting the list needed rebuilding. We desperately needed a physically competitive ruckman, cue Nankervis, and a strong midfielder, cue Prestia. And some luck with injuries in our backline, especially Grimes and Astbury.

We already had no less than 20 future premiership players on our list.

It is a bullsh!t way to assess a list.

2013 15 wins
2014 12 wins including last 9 to make finals after a horror run with injuries first half of season
2015 15 wins

2016 poor season with 8 wins when:

Maric missed almost the entire season injured
Conca missed nearly the whole season injured
Mcintosh missed Rd 8 onwards injured
Deledio missed half the season injured
Houli missed half the season injured
Cotchin 2, Grigg 2, Rance 2, Edwards 3, Vlastuin 3, Astbury 3, Grimes 6 all missed multiple games forcing us to play a load of players who had only been in the system for a year or so in roles they were not equipped for.

41 players played at least one AFL match. So Chol, Callum Moore, Broad, Drummond, Menadue, Castagna, Short, C. Ellis, Lennon, Markov all played games and Rioli played nearly the whole season. All before they were really ready to play at the level, especially in a struggling team. Poor Drummond did his knee. As a result we got smashed in some games. But I recall watching some of these blokes, Rioli, Castagna, Short and Markov in particular, and thinking they definitely have something to offer, you could see they moved well.

Because of injuries to key players and/or these kids weren’t really ready to play at AFL level, the following players played a lot of games and were either gone in the body or not good enough:

Miles 19
Hunt 17
Lloyd 22
Andrew Moore 5
Hampson 20
Townsend 4(midfield)
Chaplin 8
Morris 8
Batchelor 8

Elton and McBean were given chances to see what they could do prior to delisting, as was Marcon.

What we were reading passed off as list analysis was not list analysis at all. It was commentary around these players as if it applied to almost the whole list. None of the public commentary was where it should have been, on the wave of young athletically gifted fast and relentless runners coming through to complement just about the best top 6 or so in the game at the time. It was all about the so called list cloggers who clearly did not clog the list at all. They allowed us the crucial time to develop a raft of young future premiership players. Anything we had done wrong in recruiting was fixed well before these articles were written. Robbo, to his credit, touched on this. King just shot his mouth off in total ignorance of a situation that was pretty plain to see.

One more thing on this. When a credible person like Damien Hardwick stands up and tells the brainwashed world something it doesn’t want to hear, why isn’t someone in the media stopping and asking whether there could be something in what he was saying? They didn’t want to hear it, so they shot the messenger. They criticised his “messaging” and said he doesn’t seem to know where the club is at, sh1t cliches like that. After some of the most flimsy list analysis you could wish to see on their parts, they accused Hardwick, a man whose full time job is to understand his group of players, of not understanding his list. When you think about that, you couldn’t make that up it is that crazy.

When I heard Hardwick say the list was in the best position in his time at the club, I thought on one hand I hope you are right. On the other hand I thought he has credits in the bank and is clearly no fool AND crucially, he is in the position to know this better than anyone. So I believed him and for betting purposes pre-season 2017 I had the Tigers starting from a rating around 5th to 6th best team in the comp. I was wrong. They were the best team.
 

Soberian Tiger

'67 '69 '73 '74 '80; '17 '19 ? ? ?
Jul 25, 2018
773
4,158
AFL Club
Richmond
I seem to remember Hardwick talking about people seeing just the "tip of the iceberg" in terms of playing depth at the club. Richmond was no basket case by that time. I expected a top four push at the very least once the reinforcements arrived in Nank, Prestia and Caddy. After the preseason games, I upped that expectation to premiership push.
 

tigs2010

🐯🐯🐯🏆🏆🏆
Oct 15, 2009
53,286
121,576
Melbourne
AFL Club
Richmond
Other Teams
Heat
I remember Kingy putting up a graph on Fox footy 4 years ago that said Richmond have the worst under 22 talent in the comp.
Who were our under 22s? Depends if Floss and Kamdyn were included but the other ones would have been Lennon Cellis and Menadue and then guys who were rookies who have turned into good best 22 players.
 

Remove this Banner Ad

Top Bottom