Something that's bugging me...

[chinggis77]

Its a moot point.

If Tipett had come to Freo he would of been "Fremantled" and turned into a Murphy-Drum-Campbell type hack.

This "Fremantle" effect was best seen in guys like Croad, who became hacks at Freo, then went back to being guns at another club. Clement, Medhurst etc...

Adelaide are much better at developing young players than us. Much more professional outfit altogether.

 

[Papa Juggs]

Harvey is trying hard to develop these kids.

When is Mayne back??

Apoligies for any past rude behaviour on this team board.

 

[Belnakor]

Its a moot point.

If Tipett had come to Freo he would of been "Fremantled" and turned into a Murphy-Drum-Campbell type hack.

This "Fremantle" effect was best seen in guys like Croad, who became hacks at Freo, then went back to being guns at another club. Clement, Medhurst etc...

Adelaide are much better at developing young players than us. Much more professional outfit altogether.

**** off back to your own board and stop pretending to be a Fremantle supporter.

 

[Belnakor]

When is Mayne back??

2-3 weeks, played in the WAFL reserves but is very short of a run.

 

[shibz_1989]

Its a moot point.

If Tipett had come to Freo he would of been "Fremantled" and turned into a Murphy-Drum-Campbell type hack.

This "Fremantle" effect was best seen in guys like Croad, who became hacks at Freo, then went back to being guns at another club. Clement, Medhurst etc...

Adelaide are much better at developing young players than us. Much more professional outfit altogether.

No one likes a bogan!

 

[Stronzo]

Its a moot point.

If Tipett had come to Freo he would of been "Fremantled" and turned into a Murphy-Drum-Campbell type hack.

This "Fremantle" effect was best seen in guys like Croad, who became hacks at Freo, then went back to being guns at another club. Clement, Medhurst etc...

Adelaide are much better at developing young players than us. Much more professional outfit altogether.

So support Adelaide and GTFO with this bullshit.

 

[smkwd]

So support Adelaide and GTFO with this bullshit.

Spot on, Stronzo. No Fremantle supporter would ever, ever, EVER use that term.

 

[jgb99]

There is no way Collard is "painfully shy". From what I've seen/heard he is the complete opposite. Or maybe they are saying he is shy about the workload required for AFL level? I think a majority of kids coming through are naive about that though. Before I went to Freo training a few years ago and saw what they actually go through I thought they just got paid big bucks to play every weekend.

He was referring to the workload ...

Don't think any AIS grads (which Collard was) should be naive of the workload required at AFL ... most of these kids get an opportunity to train with an AFL club for a week during the pre-season so will see and partake in some of the work that the players do first hand as well as speaking to, being coached and mentored by ex-AFL players etc.

 

[samseenee]

It seems to me with Collard there is nothing the club could have done. It seems they really did draft the best available with that pick. Does anyone know what Collard's doing now?

I was wondering what happened to many past players.
We should have a Freo ex Players.... where are they now?

 

[cmndstab]

Those four writeups were pretty cool, Wisbey was right on target for Tippett, Dick and Krak, pity about Collard

You guys seem to have some nice youngsters coming through now at least so hopefully it won't matter within a couple of years anyway

 

[Clay Davis]

Wisbey watches a lot of footy, and can spot football ability inside out, but I don't think he talks to players, which ultimately determines whether a player flops like Collard because of no determination, or excels like Palmer because of exactly the opposite.

 

[jgb99]

Wisbey watches a lot of footy, and can spot football ability inside out, but I don't think he talks to players, which ultimately determines whether a player flops like Collard because of no determination, or excels like Palmer because of exactly the opposite.

He doesn't talk to many of the players directly, but talks to the player's state / club / other junior coaches and also gathers a lot of info from body language on-field and in quarter time huddles etc. (how a player reacts to criticism ? does he follow the coaches instructions ? etc.)

 

[Clay Davis]

He doesn't talk to many of the players directly, but talks to the player's state / club / other junior coaches and also gathers a lot of info from body language on-field and in quarter time huddles etc. (how a player reacts to criticism ? does he follow the coaches instructions ? etc.)

True, but generally that won't give you much idea between whether the player is shy or aloof.

 

[Byron_Clanger]

you think thats bad, we took Ash Sampi with the 6th overall pick, so we passed up on alot, lol and dont forget Mcdougall with the 4th pick

 

[Scatter]

Don't see what shyness has to do with this discussion - isn't Stephen Hill extremely shy?

 

[shibz_1989]

you think thats bad, we took Ash Sampi with the 6th overall pick, so we passed up on alot, lol and dont forget Mcdougall with the 4th pick

Geez you lot can be such black catters. You're either worse off or better off then us.

 

[prattsta]

Don't see what shyness has to do with this discussion - isn't Stephen Hill extremely shy?

Neither do I, shyness was not Collard's problem.

 

[jgb99]

Don't see what shyness has to do with this discussion - isn't Stephen Hill extremely shy?

Agree ... guys like Judd, Ablett Jnr and Bartel come across as being quietly spoken and having reserved personalities ...

You will expectedly get a range of different personalities, but the bottom line is will they develop the discipline and work ethic to make it to the next level ? ... many will have this initially, but others may not and will need it to have it drilled into them by coaches, team-mates and others .

 

[chinggis77]

No one likes a bogan!

If you can't accept the hard truth about our club and its long history at below-average development of players then maybe you should keep on drowning your sorrows down at the pub.

Its the old nature vs nurture debate. Are good AFL players simply a result of a club being able to identify talent better or is it because a club is able to better nurture that talent?

The answer is a bit of both. Unfortunately Freo has been below average at both. We have all had a go on this Board at our below average recruiting, particularly in the Connolly years, but how about our below average 'nurturing'.

You cannot continually turn a blind eye to guys like Medhurst, Clement, Mcphee, Croad that did much better at other clubs than ours. Clubs like Adelaide and Brisbane are probably two of the best at nurturing talent. Whilst we rely on hitting bottom to top up on top draft picks to bring ourselves back up for a crack at the flag, Adelaide and Brisbane, were able to top up on medium picks and nurture them into very good players.

Yes, we have been able to bring a number of relative unknowns and turn them into good players, however is that due more to the individuals efforts/desire or that of the club? A bit of both again. However on the whole, we cannot solely blame our recruiters. Our record when compared to others (except Richmond) is pretty poor. Put it down to a combination of poor coaching (by all coaching staff, not just the head coach), poor culture and poor leadership.

Are things any better now under Harvey? By giving kids more responsibility and having confidence in them - yes, a bit.

Discipline - as measured by commitment on and off the field and how accepted it is by coaches, teammates and staff - however is still extremely poor (Pav excepted).

Leadership amongst the playing group is dreadfully poor (Pav excepted).

When is the last time you saw Mundy dragged for a piss-poor, half-arsed effort? A lot of our piss poor efforts on the field are there because they are also accepted by coach/staff/players. Yes, Harv's has drawn some lines in the sand (dropping Duffman for dropping his head in a contest), but how often has he done it? Why don't teammates get angry and lay down the law to each other that certain half-arsed efforts are unacceptable (peer pressure)?

You are all too precious if you took exception to my post pointing out our history of unacceptable player development.

That is what really should be bugging you.

 

[smkwd]

If you can't accept the hard truth about our club and its long history at below-average development of players then maybe you should keep on drowning your sorrows down at the pub.

Its the old nature vs nurture debate. Are good AFL players simply a result of a club being able to identify talent better or is it because a club is able to better nurture that talent?

Take a long look at the players we've elevated off the rookie list then:
Grover, Hayden, Sandilands, Crowley, Duffield, Dodd
Johnson was a PSD.

You could say that these were nurtured players, compared to those who we tried (and failed) to use through the regular draft.

The answer is a bit of both. Unfortunately Freo has been below average at both. We have all had a go on this Board at our below average recruiting, particularly in the Connolly years, but how about our below average 'nurturing'.

Unless they are a 1st or 2nd round draft pick, every player after that needs to be nutured, because generally they are lacking something that would allow them to be a walk up start into the 22.

Unfortunately for us, the vast majority of those players we have picked up as 3/4/5/6th round picks, or rookie listed players just haven't come good.

This is more to do with recruiting than the club's ability to nuture talent.

You cannot continually turn a blind eye to guys like Medhurst, Clement, Mcphee, Croad that did much better at other clubs than ours.

All of these players blossed elsewhere for numerous reasons. Clement and Medhurst because of the 2nd bite of the cherry and playing under Malthouse. McPhee/Sinclair/Holland because of our team not being able to carry them due to senior players not being good enough. Croad was played out of position.

A clear example is Polak and Medhurst being traded. Both weren't living up to the promise they showed in glimpses, so they were moved on. Medhurst is playing better due to being on a last chance, and Polak would be in the same boat. While it would seem that we still lost on that trade deal, it could have been worse compared to what we got for trading Croad (Dunn).

I'd like to think that giving top end players 3 years to prove themselves is more than sufficient. Otherwise you're wasting your time. Of course people like Ryan Murphy are the exception to the rule, as he's been here 6 years and done less than Medhurst and Polak did.

Clubs like Adelaide and Brisbane are probably two of the best at nurturing talent. Whilst we rely on hitting bottom to top up on top draft picks to bring ourselves back up for a crack at the flag, Adelaide and Brisbane, were able to top up on medium picks and nurture them into very good players.

That would be more due to 2 things - a strong core group of players that are consistent, which forms the nucleus that the rest of the "nurtured" players can be built around, and their recruitment staff possibly spend more time looking at the 2nd tier youngsters who fly under the radar, as they generally only get a look in at one grade A player per draft.

Yes, we have been able to bring a number of relative unknowns and turn them into good players, however is that due more to the individuals efforts/desire or that of the club? A bit of both again. However on the whole, we cannot solely blame our recruiters.

A bit of both. Throwing the kitchen sink at players such as Josh Carr (4 years), Croad (3 years) have not helped our cause at all, but a few of our 1st/2nd round players since 1999 haven't come good either (Murphy, Drum, Dunn, Campbell, Collard - Leigh Brown, Graham Polak were both moved on).

Whether or not it's a coincidence with Harvey having the last 2 drafts, but we seem to have done better the last 2 years than when Drum and Connolly were in charge. And that's what has killed us. The massive hole in our depth is due to half the players that were drafted from 1999-2006.

Our record when compared to others (except Richmond) is pretty poor. Put it down to a combination of poor coaching (by all coaching staff, not just the head coach), poor culture and poor leadership.

Don't forget the Drum era in all of this, that we haven't recovered from.
Our captains were Fletcher (4 years)/McManus and Chris Bond (2 years).
Modra lasted 2 1/2 before he chucked it in.

We had a plethora of opportunity with Connolly due to some of the kids we picked up during 1998 and 1999 (Pav, Haselby, JLo). We then brought over some quality players (Bell, Farmer, Croad, Headland) that eventually got us to our first final. Topping up again with Carr in 2004 got us to a preliminary final. But the use of so many draft picks to get 5 players killed us in the end, because of what we are left with now. A distinct lack of depth.

Are things any better now under Harvey? By giving kids more responsibility and having confidence in them - yes, a bit.

Discipline - as measured by commitment on and off the field and how accepted it is by coaches, teammates and staff - however is still extremely poor (Pav excepted).

Leadership amongst the playing group is dreadfully poor (Pav excepted).

When is the last time you saw Mundy dragged for a piss-poor, half-arsed effort? A lot of our piss poor efforts on the field are there because they are also accepted by coach/staff/players. Yes, Harv's has drawn some lines in the sand (dropping Duffman for dropping his head in a contest), but how often has he done it? Why don't teammates get angry and lay down the law to each other that certain half-arsed efforts are unacceptable (peer pressure)?

You are all too precious if you took exception to my post pointing out our history of unacceptable player development.

That is what really should be bugging you.

Agree with the lack of leadership from the likes of McPharlin and Grover who are having their worst seasons. That showed on the weekend when the other guys (Pav, Sandi, Headland, Hayden, Johnson) weren't playing.

Harvey has put the blowtorch on the mid tier guys by playing youngsters ahead of them. And as we have seen when they have been played (Head/Murphy/Campbell/Gilmore), that they are not stepping up to the task. Other players who should know better (Peake/Mundy) are not consistent enough either.

At the end of the day, draft choices by Connolly didn't pan out as expected, and we have never really recovered from the dark days of Damian Drum.

But the fact that we have so few players who managed more than 4 years with the club is a telling factor to our success over the last 15 years. And that sits squarely with the coaches we've had up until now, and the recruitment staff.

 

[dominguez]

Don't see what shyness has to do with this discussion - isn't Stephen Hill extremely shy?

I guess the difference is that Hill is shy but determined and hard working where as Collard was shy, withdrawn, lazy and had a problem with authority.