The Official Offseason thread

[fidstar]

They wouldn't be hand checking jump shooters as much as the reverse. The match up would always come down to which era's rules as both teams are designed for that era obviously and would win.

I watched our championship games not long ago and the hand checking and the pushing on rebounds not being called stood out the most. Also the odd stare down not getting a T was good as well.

Hand checking stopped people from getting to the basket. That was what I saw as it's biggest use.

A lot of shots Curry/Thompson took were off screen catch and shoots. Hand checking doesn't really effect that much.

 

[Gak Attack]

Hand checking stopped people from getting to the basket. That was what I saw as it's biggest use.

A lot of shots Curry/Thompson took were off screen catch and shoots. Hand checking doesn't really effect that much.

Stopped quick up movement and passing, could also get away with smothering the offensive player a lot more. Good screens would still work though you just have to look at Miller.

 

[SloaneysDanger]

Jod got upset when I said the 15-16 Dubs would beat the 90s Bulls.

Still stand by it fwiw even though they didn't win.

So that means we'd beat the 90s Bulls right

 

[fidstar]

It's not just the playoffs n finals tho.. Or not just 80s Pistons. You could pull up any game and clearly see the difference in officiating, in my eyes anyway. My dad says the same, he can't believe all the flopping, weak as piss calls in the paint.. It's just that s**t really. The rules haven't really changed, they've just become way more offense friendly. Just look at the scores of today's game vs the past.., I'm not dismissing the Warriors greatness or the ability to shoot 3s, because it is amazing.

Old man with selective memory syndrome though. We all have it (including me). When looking back you tend to remember only certain things. Most people look back at highschool fondly, but hated a lot of it at the time. Like people complaining about today's AFL and saying how great it was in the 80s/90s. They forget about all those horrible games from back then. They remember the great ones.

I mean Bill Lambeer was one of the GOAT floppers. 80s scoring was way higher than it is today and that's without much use of the 3 point line (though pace was higher in the 80s and that was a big reason).

I think at the end of the day tho, if it was; 96 Bulls vs 16 Warriors with 90s calls, the Bulls would win. If it was played in today's game, Warriors would prob outshoot the Bulls - unless the splash bro's have an off day, cos ain't no warrior is out rebounding the worm.

I think from memory I had the following guess

90s rules - no time to prepare - GSW in 5 or 6
90s rules - prep time - including games against 90s teams for the Warriors) - GSW in 7 (this was borderline though)
Today's rules - no prep time - GSW in 5
Today's rules - prep time - GSW in 6

The call was made in Feb/March when GSW was in full mojo mode. I also gave the Warriors a huge advantage in the no prep stuff because the Warriors have a pretty good idea how the Bulls play, while the Bulls have no idea what the GSW would do. Game 1 would basically be a write off for the Bulls.

Also, Bill Russell def woulda averaged 5+ blocks a game in his prime... He was a damn beast and way taller than a lot of his opponents. They didn't have players shooting from range, so you literally had to get passed Bill.

How many Bill Russel games have you seen in total? What are you basing your "definitely" on other than legend?

 

[fidstar]

So that means we'd beat the 90s Bulls right

LeBron would give them fits (as he does with every team) especially if he bought his godlike 15-16 Finals game with him, but I'll take the Bulls

 

[fidstar]

Here's a game from the 80s that popped up on my youtube feed.



Only highlights, so obviously not all inclusive, but MJ waltzes to the basket on a bunch of plays. No hard fouls. Barkley even jumps out of the way on one play..

Like I said before, I happily admit harder fouls happened in the 80s/90s, but it's a myth that anytime a player drove to the basket they got annihilated like the guys that played in that era seem to think. Points weren't "earned the hard way back then".

 

[SloaneysDanger]

Watching the full replay of game 7 of the finals got me like...

 

[fidstar]

Watching the full replay of game 7 of the finals got me like...

I cried too

 

[PP34]

Especially given Barkley is the ring leader of that line. Is Sir Charles on the court for defence

Jordan is seriously killing them

Barkley wasn't really known for being much of a defender.

I said it in the past in the unpopular opinion thread, but I've always thought that the "knock them down if they come in the lane" s**t from the 80s and 90s is over-stated. The majority of teams never employed it. And the handful that did weren't doing it every time. Players still only had 6 fouls. They benefited from not many games being telecast, so legends grew. Most games being telecast were playoff games were the intensity rises in any era.

The thing I noticed most watching old Bird era games was just the amount of physical contact off the ball. Older fans like to remember the 80s as being filled with games where there were McHale on Rambis like clotheslines, but there really weren't. The Pistons took their shots at MJ, but it wasn't just "murder MJ" whenever he got near the ring. It's more the sneaky stuff teams get away with when there's contact under the rim, people chasing around screens and all that. Plus the hand checking. These days the refs are quick to call any cheap shots off ball, any real physical contact and players love a flop. There lies the difference I think.

In saying that, I found the reffing for both teams in the finals this year completely bizarre. From game one they let the Cavs do everything short of tackle Curry when he was moving off-ball and they barely refereed differently the entire series. It played into the Cavs hands eventually big time.

Here's a game from the 80s that popped up on my youtube feed.



Only highlights, so obviously not all inclusive, but MJ waltzes to the basket on a bunch of plays. No hard fouls. Barkley even jumps out of the way on one play..

Like I said before, I happily admit harder fouls happened in the 80s/90s, but it's a myth that anytime a player drove to the basket they got annihilated like the guys that played in that era seem to think. Points weren't "earned the hard way back then".

I find it hilarious hearing certain players like Barkley talk about the good old days as if he was some kind of defensive force scaring guards into playing like crap. Same with Oscar Robertson and the trash he talks.

 

[calyam]

How many Bill Russel games have you seen in total? What are you basing your "definitely" on other than legend?

Four factors I'd point out:

1. Basketball during the 1960s was played at a much faster pace.
2. Offensive basketball was primitive and inside-out
3. Russell played between 44 and 45 minutes a night during his peak.
4. Most other stats are elevated during this period.

If we had no statistics for rebounds during the 1960s and someone claimed that Russell was so dominant that he was pulling down 20 boards a night we would probably tell them they are full of it. But the nature of the game back then made it possible.

That said it is quite possible that Russell's blocks per game wasn't particularly extraordinary. In 1973-74 the average team had 386 blocks (Lakers highest at 653) over the course of 82 games. In 2015-15 the average team had 403 blocks (Heat highest at 531). So modern day players are better, on average, at getting blocks. At the same time teams that had a good defensive anchor back in the 1970s got a tonne of blocks so the same is probably true of the Russell / Chamberlain led teams of the 1960s.

 

[PP34]

Bill Russell and Wilt Chamberlain were athletic freaks for their heights. People always seem to ignore this.

 

[fidstar]

Four factors I'd point out:

1. Basketball during the 1960s was played at a much faster pace.
2. Offensive basketball was primitive and inside-out
3. Russell played between 44 and 45 minutes a night during his peak.
4. Most other stats are elevated during this period.

If we had no statistics for rebounds during the 1960s and someone claimed that Russell was so dominant that he was pulling down 20 boards a night we would probably tell them they are full of it. But the nature of the game back then made it possible.

That said it is quite possible that Russell's blocks per game wasn't particularly extraordinary. In 1973-74 the average team had 386 blocks (Lakers highest at 653) over the course of 82 games. In 2015-15 the average team had 403 blocks (Heat highest at 531). So modern day players are better, on average, at getting blocks. At the same time teams that had a good defensive anchor back in the 1970s got a tonne of blocks so the same is probably true of the Russell / Chamberlain led teams of the 1960s.

You make good points for both sides of the argument.

You mention rebounds, which is a good one. There were definitely higher number back then . Mainly due to the higher pace and shooting percentages being low. There were 70 rebounds per game in the 60s, compared to today, which is in the low 40s. In the 60s Bill Russel averaged 22.6 boards a game. That compares to about 13 boards per game assuming he grabs the same percentage of rebounds. Which is a really good rebounder in today's game. So even if you didn't have rebound totals, you could have extrapolated the data based on the number of missed shots and been pretty happy to accept that people averaged over 20 boards per game.

I'm not so sure that blocks would be the same. They haven't really changed much in 40 years (4.5 to 5.5 blocks a game). In fact the 3 years immediately after they started being recorded (74-76) were the 3 lowest block averages of the 40 plus years of recorded blocks. And this is despite the fact those 3 seasons fit in the Top 5 most shots per game for the last 43 years.

So there's no real reason to think they were substantially higher just a few years before that, even though there were more shots taken.

I'm also being low when people say Russel/Wilt averaged 5+ blocks a game. You hear people say they would have averaged a triple double in their best seasons, which I think is from people's legends growing over time.

Stats for people interested... http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats.html

 

[fidstar]

Bill Russell and Wilt Chamberlain were athletic freaks for their heights. People always seem to ignore this.

100% agree. They would have been great (even if not as statistically great) in any era.

 

[SloaneysDanger]

I cried too

I almost cried after watching the replay just then

 

[stewie griffen]

Hand checking stopped people from getting to the basket. That was what I saw as it's biggest use.

A lot of shots Curry/Thompson took were off screen catch and shoots. Hand checking doesn't really effect that much.

Klay yes
Steph no

 

[fidstar]

Steph no

I'd say 42% could be classified as a lot.

 

[stewie griffen]

I'd say 42% could be classified as a lot.

Over 90% of Klays makes from 20-24 and 25-29 feet were assisted. For Steph thats 67 and 51.

Thats still high-ish, but its not the realm of a catch and shoot only player

Surprisingly, Klay was assisted on 77% of makes at less than five feet. For Steph thats 40%, and its his highest number of fg makes in any one area of the court (if you go with the 20-24 and 25-29 markers)

 

[easedowntheroad]

Agree with you here. Even as a GSW fan, I hated that Durant signed with us. I really wanted him to go to Boston. Durant vs LeBron in the ECF would have been insanely good.

This. So much this.

I came back to the NBA in around 2010 with no real loyalty to any team (I followed Nuggets and Suns as a kid in the early/mid 90s), just loved watching good games. Once Bogut got traded to the Warriors I found myself watching them more than any other team and always wanting them to win, so kinda became a Warriors fan. But now, man, I dunno. Reckon I'll be watching plenty of Jazz, TWolves and 76ers this season.

 

[fidstar]

Over 90% of Klays makes from 20-24 and 25-29 feet were assisted. For Steph thats 67 and 51.

Thats still high-ish, but its not the realm of a catch and shoot only player

Surprisingly, Klay was assisted on 77% of makes at less than five feet. For Steph thats 40%, and its his highest number of fg makes in any one area of the court (if you go with the 20-24 and 25-29 markers)

Never said he was a catch and shoot player only though did I

 

[Carl Hooper]

Lmao.. Delusional Warriors fan.

Talkin bout selective memory syndrome or whatever... Seems to remember they've only had one good season and basically claims they're the goats.

 

[Carl Hooper]

I don't even know if they'd beat the early 2000 Lakers.. Or the 80's Celtics/Lakers.

Lebron/Kyrie and his team of overachieving sidekicks proved they aren't as great as the media (especially social media) has hyped them. Shiiid even OKC had em on the ropes with a 6 man rotation lel

Just gonna be even better when they pull a 2012 Lakers and choke it up this season anyway...

 

[peternorth]

Oh, props to the real fans of course.. But I don't respect the people not from Cali who jumped on the wagon with no ties at all to the team. Or who don't even know who a Tim Hardaway, Mitch Richmond, Chris Mullin, Jason Richardson or a Baron Davis..

It's the same with any sport or team.. Not just the Warriors.

dont think the warriors are the worst "bandwagon" team ive ever seen.

manchester united are

 

[fidstar]

Lmao.. Delusional Warriors fan.

Talkin bout selective memory syndrome or whatever... Seems to remember they've only had one good season and basically claims they're the goats.

You can't even remember 2014-15 season by the looks of it....

 

[peternorth]

Some fantastic debate happening overnight. Best board on the site!

 

[peternorth]

FWIW The Showtime Lakers would beat EVERYONE today