List Mgmt. Trade & F/A - 2020

[manicpie]

If teams come after Phillips at the end of the year, what are our wing plans? Sidebottom/Stephenson? Pendles to a wing? Billings as an RFA end of 2021? Isaac Smith for a year or two?

I'd take Billings but not Smith as he will be 33 in 2021

 

[Scodog10]

If teams come after Phillips at the end of the year, what are our wing plans? Sidebottom/Stephenson? Pendles to a wing? Billings as an RFA end of 2021? Isaac Smith for a year or two?

Duursma. When Port inevitably shits the bed in the back end of 2020 perhaps he becomes available!

 

[jsdsgn]

I feel embarrassed to know that people here are celebrating 'not letting Richmond 3 peat'

 

[NeverWobble]

Aggression has become a dirty word, so we use different phrases like 'imposes himself on the contest', 'attacks the footy' 'strong in the contest' 'strong tackler', 'hunts the footy', 'competitive' but they're all products of aggression in my book - clearly not a popular book though.

Aggression probably should be a dirty word in most realms of life, but its a wonderful trait if it's controlled aggression on the footy field. It's a natural trait we all have in us, designed to help us in physical battles, but some can access and control it much more easily than others and it gives them a big advantage in a physical contest.

Hopefully Sier has it in him, but at the moment its why he is playing VFL rather than being a star. It's why WHE, who appears to have it all, is just a role player. It's why Shaz... etc...

Yes it’s intriguing because I can hear myself saying on occasion that I’d like to see a more aggressive game plan for instance.

 

[Pragmatic Shill]

If teams come after Phillips at the end of the year, what are our wing plans? Sidebottom/Stephenson? Pendles to a wing? Billings as an RFA end of 2021? Isaac Smith for a year or two?

Tyler Brown? Daicos?

 

[Snoop Dog]

What's his agility like? Looked like it could be a concern in the short video I saw. He looked good though

Yeah that was always an issue for me but as mentioned looks better now. I think he gets a chance. Is he better than a Wylie Buzza???....probably behind him for mine.

 

[Apex36]

If teams come after Phillips at the end of the year, what are our wing plans? Sidebottom/Stephenson? Pendles to a wing? Billings as an RFA end of 2021? Isaac Smith for a year or two?

I think we’ll have enough options from within. Have you actually heard anything on this front or are you just making another excuse to put Billings’ name up?

 

[Snoop Dog]

If teams come after Phillips at the end of the year, what are our wing plans? Sidebottom/Stephenson? Pendles to a wing? Billings as an RFA end of 2021? Isaac Smith for a year or two?

Still not sold on the fact teams will come for him hard. I think Tom is a player in the $400-500k band. He is a good player but there isnt a real standout attribute with him. I dont think he is an elite kick, many may argue with that, but he really can butcher the ball at times when players are leading up at him. Equally not convinced he lowers his eyes as much as he should. To be fair I think his attack on the footy has improved but I dont have him in my top 10 and for that matter probably top 15 players (list below). So if a club wants to come at him and pay him more than that let him go for mine. We would probably only get an end of 2nd round but the salary relief issue would be solved. As to who plays there I think there are multiple candidates including pushing Crisp or Stephenson up, sticking Treloar there and pushing Maynard into middle..... Daicos, Brown etc.

1 Grundy
2 Pendlebury
3 Moore
4 Adams
5 De Goey
6 Stephenson
7 Sidebottom
8 Crisp
9 Treloar
10 Maynard
11 Elliott
12 Howe
13 Mihocek
14 Langdon
15 Beams (contentious I know)

 

[ClaytonM]

Still not sold on the fact teams will come for him hard. I think Tom is a player in the $400-500k band. He is a good player but there isnt a real standout attribute with him. I dont think he is an elite kick, many may argue with that, but he really can butcher the ball at times when players are leading up at him. Equally not convinced he lowers his eyes as much as he should. To be fair I think his attack on the footy has improved but I dont have him in my top 10 and for that matter probably top 15 players (list below). So if a club wants to come at him and pay him more than that let him go for mine. We would probably only get an end of 2nd round but the salary relief issue would be solved. As to who plays there I think there are multiple candidates including pushing Crisp or Stephenson up, sticking Treloar there and pushing Maynard into middle..... Daicos, Brown etc.

1 Grundy
2 Pendlebury
3 Moore
4 Adams
5 De Goey
6 Stephenson
7 Sidebottom
8 Crisp
9 Treloar
10 Maynard
11 Elliott
12 Howe
13 Mihocek
14 Langdon
15 Beams (contentious I know)

You mightn’t but the club has him in the top 10 at the moment. Finished 6th in the Copeland.

Yes he has his flaws but I think some people underestimate the importance of his contribution on a weekly basis.

 

[sideswipe]

You mightn’t but the club has him in the top 10 at the moment. Finished 6th in the Copeland.

Yes he has his flaws but I think some people underestimate the importance of his contribution on a weekly basis.

Agree. Anyone who has played 54 games straight has a defined role to play.

 

[sr36]

Still not sold on the fact teams will come for him hard. I think Tom is a player in the $400-500k band. He is a good player but there isnt a real standout attribute with him. I dont think he is an elite kick, many may argue with that, but he really can butcher the ball at times when players are leading up at him. Equally not convinced he lowers his eyes as much as he should. To be fair I think his attack on the footy has improved but I dont have him in my top 10 and for that matter probably top 15 players (list below). So if a club wants to come at him and pay him more than that let him go for mine. We would probably only get an end of 2nd round but the salary relief issue would be solved. As to who plays there I think there are multiple candidates including pushing Crisp or Stephenson up, sticking Treloar there and pushing Maynard into middle..... Daicos, Brown etc.

1 Grundy
2 Pendlebury
3 Moore
4 Adams
5 De Goey
6 Stephenson
7 Sidebottom
8 Crisp
9 Treloar
10 Maynard
11 Elliott
12 Howe
13 Mihocek
14 Langdon
15 Beams (contentious I know)

Just as he's rated very differently on this board, I think he'd be rated very differently in club land. For clubs who value field position really highly, his running enables him to gain a lot of metres.

 

[unplugged]

I think we’ll have enough options from within. Have you actually heard anything on this front or are you just making another excuse to put Billings’ name up?

Probably just making another excuse to put his name up if I'm honest. I haven't heard anything other than that article a few years ago about Billings meeting with Pendlebury for a coffee to pick his brain. Ever since then I've just been waiting for our second mentor-becomes-captain moment after it came to fruition with Pendles and Treloar.

If we can go and lose players due to a "salary cap squeeze" I'm really just hoping Crazy Gubby's spending spree (Howard 600k, Hill 900k, etc.) forces out their players whom they maybe take for granted and never expected to leave.

As for options within. I can see Stephenson. Derek Hine said on that Road to the Draft podcast that - whilst not directly comparing him to Judd - he's one of the few he has seen since with a similar endurance and explosiveness combination. I doubt he'll be at the coal face (on-ball) any time soon (if ever), but definitely think he is well suited to a wing. Even if it does hurt our forward stocks.

Sidebottom won't be around forever and I'd rather see him play in the forward pocket. I think you want pace on a wing, not just endurance. That's potentially Phillips' weakness.

What are the other options? We don't know if Daicos will make it. T Brown is probably going to be more suited to on-ball/forward (Fyfe style).

I could see Crisp on the other wing but you'd want to make sure you had an elite rebounding defender to cover him.

 

[Scodog10]

Still not sold on the fact teams will come for him hard. I think Tom is a player in the $400-500k band. He is a good player but there isnt a real standout attribute with him. I dont think he is an elite kick, many may argue with that, but he really can butcher the ball at times when players are leading up at him. Equally not convinced he lowers his eyes as much as he should. To be fair I think his attack on the footy has improved but I dont have him in my top 10 and for that matter probably top 15 players (list below). So if a club wants to come at him and pay him more than that let him go for mine. We would probably only get an end of 2nd round but the salary relief issue would be solved. As to who plays there I think there are multiple candidates including pushing Crisp or Stephenson up, sticking Treloar there and pushing Maynard into middle..... Daicos, Brown etc.

1 Grundy
2 Pendlebury
3 Moore
4 Adams
5 De Goey
6 Stephenson
7 Sidebottom
8 Crisp
9 Treloar
10 Maynard
11 Elliott
12 Howe
13 Mihocek
14 Langdon
15 Beams (contentious I know)

From a personal perspective you’re assessment of him is pretty bang on except for the comments on footskills (I assume no one is complimenting his ball use). I can easily justify you rating him outside the top 15, but as above my feel is the club rates him higher than you and I.

I’m not taking B&F results as a guide (for instance Mayne was top 6 in the 2016 Fremantle B&F), but in terms of consistency of performance, age and gradual improvement I think it’s safe to assume he’s not bottom 6 in the clubs best 22.

I also don’t foresee us entertaining a trade for a pick 30+ while he’s contracted. The odds of finding a durable 500+ possession player at that point in the draft are slim so the pick would need to be late 1st or early 2nd. He’s one that clubs will come to us about because there’s plenty we’d move ahead of him. Circumstances change though so if it becomes a salary dump it would be on the cards.

 

[Apex36]

Still not sold on the fact teams will come for him hard. I think Tom is a player in the $400-500k band. He is a good player but there isnt a real standout attribute with him. I dont think he is an elite kick, many may argue with that, but he really can butcher the ball at times when players are leading up at him. Equally not convinced he lowers his eyes as much as he should. To be fair I think his attack on the footy has improved but I dont have him in my top 10 and for that matter probably top 15 players (list below). So if a club wants to come at him and pay him more than that let him go for mine. We would probably only get an end of 2nd round but the salary relief issue would be solved. As to who plays there I think there are multiple candidates including pushing Crisp or Stephenson up, sticking Treloar there and pushing Maynard into middle..... Daicos, Brown etc.

1 Grundy
2 Pendlebury
3 Moore
4 Adams
5 De Goey
6 Stephenson
7 Sidebottom
8 Crisp
9 Treloar
10 Maynard
11 Elliott
12 Howe
13 Mihocek
14 Langdon
15 Beams (contentious I know)

End of second round? He’s not a free agent, if teams want to offer him big $$$ they can cough up a late first or early second.

 

[Snoop Dog]

You mightn’t but the club has him in the top 10 at the moment. Finished 6th in the Copeland.

Yes he has his flaws but I think some people underestimate the importance of his contribution on a weekly basis.

Yeah i get the view and point well made.

For the record number of players I have ranked ahead of him either didnt play / missed a large number of games.

 

[Snoop Dog]

End of second round? He’s not a free agent, if teams want to offer him big $$$ they can cough up a late first or early second.

Yeah sorry thought he was a FA. Even better.

 

[sr36]

End of second round? He’s not a free agent, if teams want to offer him big $$$ they can cough up a late first or early second.

In terms of getting fair value, I really hope the Martin situation persuades the AFL to scrap the Preseason draft.

I reckon we got fair value for Aish this year (I know others disagree) and I think a big factor is that the battle of brinkmanship was stacked in our favour. He was contracted so there was no draft threat, plus he was our only guy that we were dealing on, so we could hold our ground and take it right to the brink.

By the sounds of it, next year we may have 2 or 3 guys who will be uncontracted, get lowballed and are looking to move for money (I hope not). If you are dealing with more than one, you can only take one to the brink, plus if you are standing on the brink, there's the draft threat and getting nothing at all hanging over your head. Having the PSD as well as the ND just increases the draft threat as it's cheaper and easier to get to the desired club.

There's a decent chance that we won't be in a position to get fair value for our trades.

 

[Albert Parker]

I think Nathan Murphy could adapt as a winger. In the Adam Tomlinson mould. Good runner, good overhead, 190cm+. We may need to develop him elsewhere given the number of half-back types we still have. Tyler Brown has played on the wing in our intra-club matches too.

As for Jack Billings, given all clubs pay about the same to their lists, Jack Billings would be on a lot more money at the Saints than we could afford to pay.

I gather he would be on close to $750k at the Saints, but we couldn't afford to pay him anywhere near the same given our list and what he really offers.

Re Phillips, yes he has finished top 10 in the B&F but to an extent, the system rewards games played. Hence a Moore or De Goey don't tend to finish highly. They simply aren't on the park enough. Yet their value to the team structure and value on the open market is a lot higher than Phillips.

 

[Apex36]

In terms of getting fair value, I really hope the Martin situation persuades the AFL to scrap the Preseason draft.

I reckon we got fair value for Aish this year (I know others disagree) and I think a big factor is that the battle of brinkmanship was stacked in our favour. He was contracted so there was no draft threat, plus he was our only guy that we were dealing on, so we could hold our ground and take it right to the brink.

By the sounds of it, next year we may have 2 or 3 guys who will be uncontracted, get lowballed and are looking to move for money (I hope not). If you are dealing with more than one, you can only take one to the brink, plus if you are standing on the brink, there's the draft threat and getting nothing at all hanging over your head. Having the PSD as well as the ND just increases the draft threat as it's cheaper and easier to get to the desired club.

There's a decent chance that we won't be in a position to get fair value for our trades.

I agree the PSD should be scrapped, but not because of the Martin situation. That was unique and borne of the stupidly OTT package they received from the AFL which meant they could afford to let Martin walk if they didn’t receive ludicrous overs for him. As much as it pains me to say it, Carlton were right not to buckle to GC’s demands, because Martin as a player is worth a mid second rounder at absolute best based on his production over his career. Under normal circumstances a club wouldn’t be willing to let a player walk for nothing and be reasonable at the negotiating table. As for our uncontracted players for next year, outside the big 4, I don’t see anyone whom I’d be hugely upset giving up for very little. Phillips (as the player on topic) will still be contracted, so if clubs do come for him we’ll have plenty of leverage at the trade table.

 

[Apex36]

Probably just making another excuse to put his name up if I'm honest. I haven't heard anything other than that article a few years ago about Billings meeting with Pendlebury for a coffee to pick his brain. Ever since then I've just been waiting for our second mentor-becomes-captain moment after it came to fruition with Pendles and Treloar.

If we can go and lose players due to a "salary cap squeeze" I'm really just hoping Crazy Gubby's spending spree (Howard 600k, Hill 900k, etc.) forces out their players whom they maybe take for granted and never expected to leave.

As for options within. I can see Stephenson. Derek Hine said on that Road to the Draft podcast that - whilst not directly comparing him to Judd - he's one of the few he has seen since with a similar endurance and explosiveness combination. I doubt he'll be at the coal face (on-ball) any time soon (if ever), but definitely think he is well suited to a wing. Even if it does hurt our forward stocks.

Sidebottom won't be around forever and I'd rather see him play in the forward pocket. I think you want pace on a wing, not just endurance. That's potentially Phillips' weakness.

What are the other options? We don't know if Daicos will make it. T Brown is probably going to be more suited to on-ball/forward (Fyfe style).

I could see Crisp on the other wing but you'd want to make sure you had an elite rebounding defender to cover him.

Noble was recruited from the SANFL playing on the wing. Height aside, he has the speed, endurance and kicking skills to be an effective winger. I’d also like to see Scharenberg trialled on a wing if the club seems his endurance up to scratch. Daicos played mostly on a wing in the VFL this year. He’s another option, particularly if he can improve his endurance again this preseason.

 

[DaVe86]

I think the underestimated part of Phillips game is his ability to push back hard and be the last man in defence, but then also work hard enough forward to be an effective link in the chain...or even a goal scorer. He is one of the best in the competition in this regards. With Sidebottom on the other wing who is also an endurance king, we really have the ability to work opposition midfields off their feet.

He has also improved his attack on the ball, as well as his marking and general 'hardness'. I think he is a very handy player and one I'd be keen to keep.

But you wouldn't pay more than the 400-500 mark for him, so if massive offers come in, then you wouldn't prioritise his signature over others. I agree that we have other wing options if the coaching panel is creative enough.

 

[Saintly Viewed]

Still not sold on the fact teams will come for him hard. I think Tom is a player in the $400-500k band. He is a good player but there isnt a real standout attribute with him. I dont think he is an elite kick, many may argue with that, but he really can butcher the ball at times when players are leading up at him. Equally not convinced he lowers his eyes as much as he should. To be fair I think his attack on the footy has improved but I dont have him in my top 10 and for that matter probably top 15 players (list below). So if a club wants to come at him and pay him more than that let him go for mine. We would probably only get an end of 2nd round but the salary relief issue would be solved. As to who plays there I think there are multiple candidates including pushing Crisp or Stephenson up, sticking Treloar there and pushing Maynard into middle..... Daicos, Brown etc.

1 Grundy
2 Pendlebury
3 Moore
4 Adams
5 De Goey
6 Stephenson
7 Sidebottom
8 Crisp
9 Treloar
10 Maynard
11 Elliott
12 Howe
13 Mihocek
14 Langdon
15 Beams (contentious I know)

Interesting list.

Beams far higher for me, Mihocek far lower.

elliott a bit higher and Adams a bit lower.

but great discussion.

 

[DerekZoolander]

I feel embarrassed to know that people here are celebrating 'not letting Richmond 3 peat'

Lachlan Keeffe cost us back to back flag.

 

[Sea fog]

I think Nathan Murphy could adapt as a winger. In the Adam Tomlinson mould. Good runner, good overhead, 190cm+. We may need to develop him elsewhere given the number of half-back types we still have. Tyler Brown has played on the wing in our intra-club matches too.

As for Jack Billings, given all clubs pay about the same to their lists, Jack Billings would be on a lot more money at the Saints than we could afford to pay.

I gather he would be on close to $750k at the Saints, but we couldn't afford to pay him anywhere near the same given our list and what he really offers.

Re Phillips, yes he has finished top 10 in the B&F but to an extent, the system rewards games played. Hence a Moore or De Goey don't tend to finish highly. They simply aren't on the park enough. Yet their value to the team structure and value on the open market is a lot higher than Phillips.

Agree, Phillips is not a high impact player.

 

[Sea fog]

I think the underestimated part of Phillips game is his ability to push back hard and be the last man in defence, but then also work hard enough forward to be an effective link in the chain...or even a goal scorer. He is one of the best in the competition in this regards. With Sidebottom on the other wing who is also an endurance king, we really have the ability to work opposition midfields off their feet.

He has also improved his attack on the ball, as well as his marking and general 'hardness'. I think he is a very handy player and one I'd be keen to keep.

But you wouldn't pay more than the 400-500 mark for him, so if massive offers come in, then you wouldn't prioritise his signature over others. I agree that we have other wing options if the coaching panel is creative enough.

Phillips tends to panic under pressure and his kicking can be quite poor. He is not great at contested footy either.