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Would you say they are far worse? Seems a bit of an exaggeration.
We need to have a talk about Nathan Lyon taking 500 test wickets
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What?
iluvparis
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In the 9 tests they have played together, Lyon has 47 wickets at 27.85 and O'Keefe has 35 wickets at 29.4. Lyon has 4 x 5fa and O'Keefe has two, both in the same match.
wut?
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Sure, but a mass blob of overall stats wasn't my point. Look at the actual tests they played and what happened in them. Broad, general stats mean nothing without context.
I don't think OKeefe is necessarily better than Lyon, but he's as good if he's not better.
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376 Test wickets at 32.
What are we talking about exactly? The fact that he's one of the greatest off-spinners the game has seen?
He's 18th on the all-time list of Test wicket takers and will likely finish well inside the top 10.
Not as good as O'keefe? Give me a spell.
What are we talking about exactly? The fact that he's one of the greatest off-spinners the game has seen?
He's 18th on the all-time list of Test wicket takers and will likely finish well inside the top 10.
Not as good as O'keefe? Give me a spell.
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Coming off a poor series v India, poor couple Shield games and is currently nonfa in this test.
Surprised more pressure isn't mounting.
Surprised more pressure isn't mounting.
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Jinx worked to perfection
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Love the reverse mozz.
Grand Uncle Horace
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Unless they dig into their records.
SSwans2011
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Second innings will buy him some more time, which it should.
If he can't back it up, I would like to see Swepson though. Lyon's last four years have been pretty average. Averaging close to 40 with a pretty poor SR, and has only really had two 'good' series with a few other passable ones.
If he can't back it up, I would like to see Swepson though. Lyon's last four years have been pretty average. Averaging close to 40 with a pretty poor SR, and has only really had two 'good' series with a few other passable ones.
Pippen94
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He's not going anywhere for awhile. Large part of his role is to tie up end so pacemen can rest
Pippen94
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Hayden is only opener with higher average than Warner.
Only Warne & McGrath have more test wickets than Lyon.
As express bowler Starc has better average than Thommo, Lee & Johnson.
Fact these 3 are under such scrutiny from fans shows how little fans know
Grand Uncle Horace
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Warner is a complete spud overseas and the purest definition of a ftb. Last summer against a decent attack he was found out. He was very lucky in the first innings.
Thommo played too long and arguably against much better batsmen. Bung Lee was a shocker gifted Tests and reserved to bowl against the tail as decent batsmen carved him up. Oh yes, that is what Paine and Smith did with Starc.
Lyon has played a heap more Tests than other bowlers.
Pippen94
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Go petition howstat to place an * next to the records of all those players then.
Grand Uncle Horace
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Nope. Stats have their place but so must context.
SSwans2011
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I know that's a large part of his role, but how did that work out for us last Summer? I was at day 5 of the Gabba Test against India earlier this year, and he didn't look like taking a wicket. Might be able to go at a decent economy rate, but every time he came on to bowl, it felt like the pressure was being released.
I'd like to see if Swepson looks more likely to take wickets. Even if he's a bit more expensive, if he goes at a better strike rate, they could probably bowl him less, and give Green more overs. Lyon was good today, but performances like today have become increasingly rare ever since the last home Ashes series.
Pippen94
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The current quartet have played 20 tests together which I think is an Aussie record. Take Lyon out & system changes. Whatever everybody thinks, if the team keeps winning the selectors won't want to make any changes.
Interesting Leach completely failed in that role & it hurt England's plans greatly. Fans just look at wickets.
Pippen94
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No context can diminish long successful careers.
SSwans2011
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The system changes, but that doesn't mean the quality of the bowling line-up will dip. The team won the first Test, but the same team also let the Gabba Test slip at the start of the year. Virtually the same team let Headingley slip 2 years ago.
Lyon took 3/150 and 2/116 in those Tests, respectively. At least he was holding down an end while those games went down the toilet, I suppose. He's definitely not solely the person to blame, but saying he should keep his spot because of a system that has delivered England and India two of the highest fourth innings chases to win games isn't a particularly convincing argument, for mine.
It's easy to say lyon has played a lot of tests thats why he has the wickets but lets remember he got dumped multiple times after bad patches and people on bigfooty and elsewhere have been death riding him his whole career when he had a dip in form, just being able to play that many tests when the aussie public have such insane exceptions on spinners post warne is a huge achievement.
My worry if we go swepson is that he will treated the same way that one loss at home where he gets thumped(which is going to happen to a leggie on our flat decks) and people will say ok maybe not swepson lets try some other bloke instead and that awful spinner merry go round begins all over again.
My worry if we go swepson is that he will treated the same way that one loss at home where he gets thumped(which is going to happen to a leggie on our flat decks) and people will say ok maybe not swepson lets try some other bloke instead and that awful spinner merry go round begins all over again.
SSwans2011
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Has to happen eventually, though. Swepson's last few years have been as good as I've seen a spinner bowl in the Shield in the last decade IMHO.
This summer would be a good chance to give him some experience before tours in Pakistan and India next year, where he would have a real chance to build some confidence and establish himself.
Grand Uncle Horace
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and that worked out well last summer against an Indian side ravaged by injury?
people mentioned looking deeper at just raw stats like games played wicket taken average ect Just to follow up on lyons value on our dead and difficult tracks, cricviz did a deeper dive into his home numbers, he has 204 wickets@32 in australia but all other spinners who played in those same games took 180 wickets@63, i think that gives a bit more context about his value on our pitches and also just how difficult it is to take wickets at a half decent average as a test spinner in australia.
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