2nd Test Australia v West Indies Jan 25-29 1430hrs @ the Gabba

[Blue1980]

My take as a non Aussie fan.

You need more time to assess what’s going on.

Most teams don’t make decisions about this sort of things based on guys who:

- have just started opening in Smith’s case and have played one really excellent innings. Whatever you think about his approach (I happen to think he played it about as well as he could have and the likes of Starc and Lyon need to have a good hard look at themselves as to the shots they played) he nearly single handedly won a test match despite his two failures in other innings.

- have been hovering around the 35-40 average mark across an extended period after a really prolific period. Few if any teams dispense with a top order player who has done what Labuschagne has done even if his last 12 months has been below par. It hasn’t been sub-35. He gets more time yet.

- Green has only just been brought back in. He gets more than two tests, plus he bowls. Two tests isn’t an experiment or a trial, it’s two games.

- Head is going nowhere but he’s the one player I would actually be concerned about because he has to learn to change his game and at the moment he seems incapable of doing it.

- Marsh needs to do that too but his form is better than Head’s. He needs to develop gears to his game.

- Carey has been adequate and his keeping has been really good.

The bowlers have all been outstanding.

The team does not deserve the sort of scrutiny it’s under, at least for the time being. A defeat in New Zealand may change that but they have their own issues at the moment

I think it’s just a minority who are giving them the scrutiny. Most people accept you aren’t going to win every test ever.

The batting averages are a bit lower the last 12 months I think in part due to a combination of more bowler friendly wickets both home and abroad and tougher opposition (particularly abroad but Pakistan and West Indies bowled well too).

There isn’t an XI available which will turn this side into the Australia circa 2002 or something.

 

[PhatBoy]

I think it’s just a minority who are giving them the scrutiny. Most people accept you aren’t going to win every test ever.

The batting averages are a bit lower the last 12 months I think in part due to a combination of more bowler friendly wickets both home and abroad and tougher opposition (particularly abroad but Pakistan and West Indies bowled well too).

There isn’t an XI available which will turn this side into the Australia circa 2002 or something.

That’s a fair take.

I think Cummins and McDonald have to do a bit of a tactical reassessment.

Head, Marsh and Carey have to change tack a bit.

I mean if they want to adopt the English approach then fair enough you do it and stick to it and back yourselves but to paraphrase Ricky Ponting there seems to be an element of the ‘eyes spinning like poker machines’ at times when they are batting recently especially with Marsh. He’s not just batting positively - he’s trying to hit the cover off every ball he faces

 

[apollo_creed]

That’s a fair take.

I think Cummins and McDonald have to do a bit of a tactical reassessment.

Head, Marsh and Carey have to change tack a bit.

I mean if they want to adopt the English approach then fair enough you do it and stick to it and back yourselves but to paraphrase Ricky Ponting there seems to be an element of the ‘eyes spinning like poker machines’ at times when they are batting recently especially with Marsh. He’s not just batting positively - he’s trying to hit the cover off every ball he faces

They are naturally attacking batsman. You’re suggesting they play differently to what they’re best suited to. Head tried that before at test level and was not successful, his recent success at test level has been because he has backed himself and played his natural game.

Carey looks better when he’s positive and attacks.

Green is the opposite, he’s often getting himself into trouble because he’s too negative at test level.

 

[1990crow]

The whole batting lineup had a poor summer.

 

[PhatBoy]

They are naturally attacking batsman. You’re suggesting they play differently to what they’re best suited to. Head tried that before at test level and was not successful, his recent success at test level has been because he has backed himself and played his natural game.

Carey looks better when he’s positive and attacks.

Green is the opposite, he’s often getting himself into trouble because he’s too negative at test level.

Well that’s debatable.

You could call this cherry picking and yes that’s fine but the marked lift in Travis Head’s strike rate began at the start of last summer. His strike rate was around 60 and since then it has been 80.

He’s averaged 48.

So you could say that, fair enough, his approach has been a success.

A closer look would cast some doubt on that, though.

That figure of 48 with a strike rate of 80 includes a 99 at a run a ball, and a 176 at a run a ball in the very first two innings of that stretch, against a decidedly inferior West Indies team to the one that just toured, the 99 came after Smith and Labuschagne had both hit 200 at Perth and the 176 came at Adelaide when the Windies had lost a frontline bowler (Marquino Mindley) two overs into his debut test while other luminaries included Anderson Phillip and Roston Chase.


Since those two tests his strike rate has been fine but his average has dropped to 37.5.


So the question has to be asked: is the approach still working? Yes the opposition and the conditions have undoubtedly gotten tougher, but that would also suggest that the batsman himself would need to reassess whether he needs to make some allowances for whether his approach needs some fine tuning.

Before all that he averaged 39.4. So remove those two tests from his entire career and basically what he did before them, was slightly more successful than what he’s done since, or maybe AS successful if you make an allowance for the increase in his scoring rate in the time since.


Marsh is obviously playing great cricket since he returned and his natural inclination is to attack but at least 3 of his scores this summer could have ended early from memory (pretty sure his Perth knock was chanceless) - there’s nothing wrong with attacking but as I said he looks like he’s trying to literally hit the cover off everything. He will score at 70+ just batting normally.

 

[gtrxuone]

Just reading a story on News.com.au
Shamar Joseph spoke to Jason Gillespie during the Adelaide test.
Shamar was impressed by Jason and loved the Adelaide Oval.He wants to play BBL for the Adelaide Strikers next season.
Depending on WestIndies commitments and being the hottest property, in World Cricket.An unknown a fortnight ago.
We will see what happens

 

[Topkent]

If you hate them so much then stop watching them. Don't you have anything better to do? Sad

I watched the west indies slaughter them and it was glorious, why does that make you wanna cry lol

 

[frankrizzo]

Nobody got slaughtered it was a great game and 13th narrowest victory margin in test history quit your trolling.

 

[Topkent]

We did beat them at the oval in the world test championship final, I don’t think there is much in it. If we won 2 series and lost the final people would then dismiss the series wins and call us chokers.

India did lose yesterday as well in a test btw.

England have 14 wins in their last 19 tests
We've only won 1 of our last 4 series lol
Joke

 

[Freezin]

I watched the west indies slaughter them and it was glorious, why does that make you wanna cry lol

Obviously you didn't watch Border and his Aust team get slaughtered by the WI in the 80's, to fully understand the definition of the term slaughter. Some right characters back then in that Aust 80's test team too, many who sank beers and smoked their durries with the best of them.....yet got slaughtered day in day out from memory.

 

[Topkent]

Obviously you didn't watch Border and his Aust team get slaughtered by the WI in the 80's, to fully understand the definition of the term slaughter. Some right characters back then in that Aust 80's test team too, many who sank beers and smoked their durries with the best of them.....yet got slaughtered day in day out from memory.

From arguably the greatest team of all time with only the Aussie team from 98-06 comparible.

 

[Gough]

Obviously you didn't watch Border and his Aust team get slaughtered by the WI in the 80's, to fully understand the definition of the term slaughter. Some right characters back then in that Aust 80's test team too, many who sank beers and smoked their durries with the best of them.....yet got slaughtered day in day out from memory.

The nadir wasn't even getting belted by the West Indies, that happened to most back then, it was losing to New Zealand followed by the Ashes at home in 86/87. That was really bad.

 

[evolved2]

Are the Windies better than we thought, the Aussies worse than we thought, or is this just an anomaly that we can ignore?

We've looked weak all Summer against two sides that really shouldn't trouble the reigning WTC holder.

Green doesn't look ready to me. I wonder whether we should persist with him or go for a specialist batsmen instead. The batting allrounder spot is filled with a better alternative in Marsh. Labuschagne's form is concerning though his place isn't in danger. Our batsmen are doing just enough to keep their spots. Smith going big as opener is one of the few wins I'll take out of this Summer.

I'm not filled with a lot of confidence going into the NZ test series.

 

[PhatBoy]

Are the Windies better than we thought, the Aussies worse than we thought, or is this just an anomaly that we can ignore?

We've looked weak all Summer against two sides that really shouldn't trouble the reigning WTC holder.

Green doesn't look ready to me. I wonder whether we should persist with him or go for a specialist batsmen instead. The batting allrounder spot is filled with a better alternative in Marsh. Labuschagne's form is concerning though his place isn't in danger. Our batsmen are doing just enough to keep their spots. Smith going big as opener is one of the few wins I'll take out of this Summer.

I'm not filled with a lot of confidence going into the NZ test series.

Windies bowling is decent. It’s never been THAT far off being good, when we get our selection right. Roach is world class, you don’t put together his record unless you are good. He’s had to learn to do it with his pace dropping by 15km/h. It hasn’t always shown in Australia but he’s a very fine bowler. The combinations of Joseph, Holder, Gabriel and now Shamar Joseph and at times Seales and even Mayers at home on some sticky pitches have always caused opponents issues. Bowling has not ever been a continual problem for the West Indies: spin bowling, perhaps, but not seam bowling generally.

Yes batting is an issue for the West Indies and I think we are still probably no better or not much better than what most people thought we were BUT we have more fight than what most people probably think, and we have more natural talent than what people think. Harnessing those two things is what makes any team good.

At the moment you can see at the top we have two fighters who are badly out of form.

Then we have two guys with real talent in McKenzie and Athanaze but they need to learn a bit about tactics and knowing when to pull back.

Hodge almost has the balance right but is a little low on shots. Hopefully he can develop that a bit.

Greaves isn’t a test quality #6. I would like Jason Holder to come back into that spot and concentrate on his batting a bit more than he was over the 18 months before his last match.

Da Silva showed how good a batsman he can be in Brisbane. It will be forgotten in the wash up behind Joseph’s heroics but that was a masterful knock given the game situation.

I don’t think the Windies as an entire TEAM are better than people thought they were YET - but the bowling is, and the rest of the side is easily capable of being better than what people probably thought it was ever capable of being

 

[Freezin]

Are the Windies better than we thought, the Aussies worse than we thought, or is this just an anomaly that we can ignore?

We've looked weak all Summer against two sides that really shouldn't trouble the reigning WTC holder.

Green doesn't look ready to me. I wonder whether we should persist with him or go for a specialist batsmen instead. The batting allrounder spot is filled with a better alternative in Marsh. Labuschagne's form is concerning though his place isn't in danger. Our batsmen are doing just enough to keep their spots. Smith going big as opener is one of the few wins I'll take out of this Summer.

I'm not filled with a lot of confidence going into the NZ test series.

Specialist batsman like who?

Obviously NZ are due to end their drought v Aust, though first NZ have to overcome that mental barrier v Aust.

 

[JimmyBC]

 

[Gough]

Dickhead. If Shemar Joseph moved in next door to him he'd completely freak out.

 

[BGman]

Green has only just been brought back in. He gets more than two tests, plus he bowls. Two tests isn’t an experiment or a trial, it’s two games.

Green was never going to be on the sidelines for long. Many dont rate this bloke as special or even potentially special, except Westend, I and CA. He is still a work in progress at this level for one prime reason, he has two major disciplines, batting and bowling, to hone then polish to a special level. THAT TAKES TIME.

Seems he has already polished his fielding, as the 'albatross' is exceptional in the gully, arguably the best in world cricket. But he is human and like all of us, will spill the odd one.

 

[evolved2]

Specialist batsman like who?

Obviously NZ are due to end their drought v Aust, though first NZ have to overcome that mental barrier v Aust.

I'm happy to give Renshaw another shot.

There's no mental barrier with the current NZ team. They'll eat us alive if we play like we did against Pakistan and the Windies.

 

[PhatBoy]

Green was never going to be on the sidelines for long. Many dont rate this bloke as special, except Westend, I and CA. He is still a work in progress at this level for one reason, he has two major disciplines, batting and bowling, to hone then polish. THAT TAKES TIME.

I’m still undecided. I think he has the raw tools, anyone can see that. Something is missing though.

There is always the danger with these guys that it will become evident later down the track that they were just always so far ahead of the curve for a long time because of their size. Think of a guy like Jacob Oram who probably would have absolutely dominated cricket at every level and then it amounted to very little in the long run.

I’m not saying Green is Jacob Oram - he looks about 10 times better with bat and ball and for all I know he could be more Kyle Jamieson with ball and Kallis with bat, who knows.

But physicality gets you a LONG way coming through the ranks in any sport and then suddenly you’re among the elite, and it counts for a lot less. Opponents don’t care as much if you’re tall or you can hit the ball a long way.

 

[evolved2]

Green was never going to be on the sidelines for long. Many dont rate this bloke as special or even potentially special, except Westend, I and CA. He is still a work in progress at this level for one prime reason, he has two major disciplines, batting and bowling, to hone then polish to a special level. THAT TAKES TIME. Seems he has already polished his fielding, as the 'albatross' is exceptional in the gully, arguably the best in world cricket. But he is human and like all of us, will spill the odd one.

The question is whether he should hone his skills in the Australian test side. He's an awesome fielder, sure, but he looks out of place as a #4 batsmen. The bison can fill the bulk of 5th bowling duties so I don't see a place for Green in our best XI yet.

 

[PhatBoy]

He bowls about 130 dont he, Green already consistently 137-140. Mix that pace with his massively elevated release point and he is a more tricky customer than Jamieson.

Jamieson regularly bowls in the mid to high 130s and I think, while his status as a specialist bowler gives him more opportunity to show this - and his greater continuity at test level also - he has proven to date at least, that for now he’s a more accomplished bowler. Again that’s not to say that Green doesn’t have the potential to do the same or better and develop into a world class bowler: hell Jason Holder took a long time.

 

[Voice of the G]

The question is whether he should hone his skills in the Australian test side. He's an awesome fielder, sure, but he looks out of place as a #4 batsmen. The bison can fill the bulk of 5th bowling duties so I don't see a place for Green in our best XI yet.

At this stage the No.6 is either Marsh or Green.Personally I favor Marsh short term and let Green play out the season in the shield and look for him to be the future.No good taking him to NZ and ending up being the 13th man.But a tough decision for the selectors in selecting this squad for NZ.

 

[DaRick]

I’m still undecided. I think he has the raw tools, anyone can see that. Something is missing though.

There is always the danger with these guys that it will become evident later down the track that they were just always so far ahead of the curve for a long time because of their size. Think of a guy like Jacob Oram who probably would have absolutely dominated cricket at every level and then it amounted to very little in the long run.

I’m not saying Green is Jacob Oram - he looks about 10 times better with bat and ball and for all I know he could be more Kyle Jamieson with ball and Kallis with bat, who knows.

But physicality gets you a LONG way coming through the ranks in any sport and then suddenly you’re among the elite, and it counts for a lot less. Opponents don’t care as much if you’re tall or you can hit the ball a long way.

I think it's his self-confidence.

Oram's career was largely limited by injury, TBF.

 

[PhatBoy]

I think it's his self-confidence.

Oram's career was largely limited by injury, TBF.

Green looks very bereft of it at times doesn’t he

Yes definitely Oram didn’t get much of a run at it that’s true